BSJA Winnings - Pounds vs Points

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Rambo

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Pointless post really, but following on from previous queries regarding Actual vs Notional winnings, and what the BSJA were thinking when they implemented it, and why they didn't just grade horses with points instead.....

Well.....i've just been checking Bo's record, and interestingly it now states under the section Winnings to date....Total pts where the horses Notional Winnings are.

Anyone know if this is a new thing ?
 
The BSJA did do a trial about 10 years ago where they gave a test group of ponies points as well as money - I guess they didn't like the results.
 
The Irish equiv of BSJA which I *think* is SJAI awards points... I **think** in order to convert them into ££, you have to multiply pony points by 2.5 & horse points by 9 eg Cat had 20 points = £180.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

Another points thing...in the BSJA mag, the top riders are scored by points, not ££. How is this worked out?
 
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Another points thing...in the BSJA mag, the top riders are scored by points, not ££. How is this worked out?

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1 point for every £50 winings at 1.20 open or above. Additional points for DC in nations cup an other International comps
 
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Another points thing...in the BSJA mag, the top riders are scored by points, not ££. How is this worked out?

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1 point for every £50 winings at 1.20 open or above. Additional points for DC in nations cup an other International comps

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I thought it was at 1.25m+
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I stand to be corrected though
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[ QUOTE ]
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Another points thing...in the BSJA mag, the top riders are scored by points, not ££. How is this worked out?

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1 point for every £50 winings at 1.20 open or above. Additional points for DC in nations cup an other International comps

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I thought it was at 1.25m+
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I stand to be corrected though
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Would seem we are both right and wrong.
Being a sad puppy (and bored at work) I just checked the rule book.
Points are awarded based on £50 per point for ALL open and grade A / B comps but only to grade A and B horses.
If prize money is awarded below 6th place then 2 points are awarded per £50 but only at 1.25 or above

Simple really
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Another points thing...in the BSJA mag, the top riders are scored by points, not ££. How is this worked out?

[/ QUOTE ]

1 point for every £50 winings at 1.20 open or above. Additional points for DC in nations cup an other International comps

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was at 1.25m+
crazy.gif
I stand to be corrected though
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Would seem we are both right and wrong.
Being a sad puppy (and bored at work) I just checked the rule book.
Points are awarded based on £50 per point for ALL open and grade A / B comps but only to grade A and B horses.
If prize money is awarded below 6th place then 2 points are awarded per £50 but only at 1.25 or above

Simple really
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But that nots how they do it - unless they have changed it this year as Cath has won about £2k on floyd since he has been Grade B in open classes and never won a point - I think it is just in 1.25+ classes - which they did tell me over the phone once.

It also means that if you got placed in a 1.25 on a Graded horse you would basically be out of all the amateur classes - the rider ranked 450th has 1.70 points which would be £85
 
I was just going by the 2007 rule book which is not the easiest to understand.

450 list is only used ofr 90 and 1.00m am. 250 list for 1.10 and 1.20. Not that I need to worry about that!
 
Well, you'd be out of the 90cms and 1m classes anyway, but would still be eligible for the 1.10m and 1.20m classes
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It's a point worth considering though as if you are limited on what classes you could jump anyway (due to 1.10m and 1.20m Opens disappearing) then you might think twice about 'risking' picking up a point in a 1.25m if you had a horse capable
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Not a risk for me despite a very capable horse!

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Not today maybe....but every possibility in the future i would say ! It woun't be long before you're jumping 1.30m's i reckon...and at those heights a DC is often enough to place you
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Jersey has a point system which personally I reall like. The normal points per win is 3 (eqiv to £9) which only goes up to I think a max of 5 or 6 as prize money increases. Points are awarded down the line according to the number of starters. Worked well in my opinion In one very good season (think 10 shows) I clocked up about 60 points on one pony alone but that only took him to £180 which in the circumstances considering opposition was fair.

Because of the system you have no notional/actual only points are recorded and then when a pony/horse goes to England winnings are multiplied by 3. For this reason Dan's actual and notional are very close. Think he is £506 notional £560 actual because the vast majority of his winnings were in Jersey or in Fox/newcomer classes where the actual was less than the notional in the rule book so all the actual was graded! (confused yet!!!!)
 
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Rambo, what do you mean the 1.10m and 1.20m classes are disappearing??

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Hi Susan...

Well, we have seen Fox/1.20m Open's become a LOT less common on the Sussex side of the border in the past 12 months as a result of the Progressive / Advanced schedule categorisations. That (i don't believe !) is in doubt...and in fact there have been letters written to H&H and published backing that up. The 1.10m issue a little more 'hypothetical' and relates to the recent change of stance / rules by the BSJA regarding the combining of Newcomers / 1.10m Opens. No one really knows where that one will go yet, although people on here are already reporting that NC/1.10m Opens have been replaced with plain NC's on some schedules they have seen.

Time will tell i guess...but we are starting to see some 1.15m Opens appearing which might be a suitable alternative to some...although not everyone
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Out of interest, do you know what Limes policy is going to be for the coming months and more interestingly over the winter ?
 
TBH, they are becoming less common in Kent too. The main reason is that you have to run combined schedules, ie. Progressive/Advanced.

Progressive will allow you to run to 1.10m/Newcomers maximum, but you are still able to combine that class. If you want to go above 1.10, you have to run a Progressive/Advanced schedule, which then means that you can't combine the Newcomers with a 1.10m Open. For the time being, we are still able to run a Foxhunter with a 1.20 Open, but I wouldn't be surprised if that changed too.

However, when I spoke to somebody frm the rules committee, I am told that we can run a Newcomers and a 1.10m Open alongside each other, ie. one course, one course walk, but it would be run like a handicap so the Newcomers would all jump their first round, then their jump off (table A7) and then the Opens would all do the same - would be one presentation, but two sets of prizes. This will cost the show centres more moeny, so I wouldn't hold your breath to see too many of these.

In fact, the bigger classes are becoming more and more popular down with us, but this could be because there are not so many show centres running them. We had about 20 in the Fox on sunday, and another 20 in the 1.25m. This may not seem a lot to some people but an average Foxhunter around her would get about 12 in it!

We are planning to continue to run progressive/advanced schedules next winter, otherwise my daughter has no classes to compete in!
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However, when I spoke to somebody frm the rules committee, I am told that we can run a Newcomers and a 1.10m Open alongside each other, ie. one course, one course walk, but it would be run like a handicap so the Newcomers would all jump their first round, then their jump off (table A7) and then the Opens would all do the same - would be one presentation, but two sets of prizes. This will cost the show centres more moeny, so I wouldn't hold your breath to see too many of these.



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Now I really can't see the point in doing it that way. If you are open you have to get there early to walk the course and then sit thru the Newcomers and if you are Newcomers you have to sit thru the Open to get your prize. If they ran them exaclty how they do now but kept them to seperate classes it would make more sense. Especially as you are going to have to wait for the jump off to be raised and lowered - madness.
 
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While you have your rule book to hand; do you know the height of fences for winter A&B classes?
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1m35 i 'think' if the non handicapped variety!! but will prob be wrong! LOL

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Take a deep breath.........

They're Max height 1.45m, Max spread 1.50m
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Thanks for the clarification Susan...and i deparately hope you are wrong about the remaining 1.20m Opens disappearing too
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See i think the BSJA are missing a trick here...If a show centre is running a Progressive / Advanced Schedule (i.e paying double fees!) they surely want an incentive to do so...and running a combined NC/1.10m Open is a good way of doing this....as correct me if i'm wrong, but apart from BN and Disco, the 1.10m Open is probably the biggest money spinner on the schedule
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Also, if a centre id running a purely Advance schedule, how many people with a horse just out of NC's are going to want to go in cold to a Fox/1.20m
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Surely it makes more sense to give the younger prospects a warm-up class before the Fox
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I like the BSJA's suggestion that a 1.15m Open can be scheduled as a nice 'in between' step to Foxhunter........but of course to do that a centre has to run a Progressive / Advanced schedule and so the BSJA gets extra money
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I guess the cut-offs have to be made somewhere, and there's always going to be losers, but i can't help but think with the number of imported horses on the circuit who will likely be out of NC's if not Fox's too, they are tearing the heart out of the very membership that they were striving to make a market for in the first place
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I can't remember who mentioned it above, but i think the best solution to a bad situation would be to force a NC and 1.10m Open to be run as separate classes but concurrently, as was the case before if there were more than 30 starters. Okay, the show centres will still end up funding more prize money, but at least they have the option to claim that back through increased entry fees or similar. As for running the classes in the fashion suggested, well that's just ludicrous and achieves nothing imo...unless the classes are run as 2-phase which they're not always allowed to be
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The other option of course is to run an Amateur Champs 1.10m Qualifier which is not restricted in the same way.....or perhaps even ditch the Newcomers completely and just run a 1.10m Open
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Why they (refering to BSJA) just can't implement a simple system is beyond me, they just don't seem to know what they are doing! Take this new notional business well need a say anything!....and don't get me started on the new stallion rules I understand the principals don't get me wrong but have you seen the heights they have to jump, they basically don't give you a chance to bring a young stallion on slowly anymore, most of them will be naffed up by the time they are into double digits (agewise!). The new entry fees are stupid, you in a catch 22 situation, it differcult to get a young stallion graded without winnings yet you can't jump a young stallion to get winnings without paying overinflated membership! Grrrrrrrr RANT OVER - Thanks for Reading!
 
I am coming from the newcomers and foxhunter progression side- it is my first year foxhunter and we are still in newcomers and my horse has qualfied for its second round newcomers and I need two more fox.

I am from Bournemouth and there are NO fox on at the weekends (I work during the week) locally for this month anyway. I personally prefer to jump a newcomers before a fox- I have not tried to do a 1.15 cold and I admit I will be nervous to do when I have to.

For people just progressing to fox to go straight in to 1.15 is quite a thing! Newcomers and Fox classes as opposed to opens were surely first designed to "progress" the horse and rider. I can understand riders with more experienced horses with more winnings may be happier with this but in order for me to get my remaining DC's it looks like I will have to go straight in to 1.15's.

With my horse I expect by the time he has jumped himself out of fox we will be happier and looking forward to jumping much bigger opens. But in order for me to get there in the first place I want to be accurate and confident- not scaring myself wih the first class of the day!

Thankfully I do not have to jump the new/fox second rounds he goes to his professional rider for the month of June, and by the time he comes home he should be out of newcomers too- then what will I do?!

Even though I have my own selfish opinion on this, may be it is not such a bad thing and will make those of us on good horses progress quicker than we would done. There must be some reason for it all though?

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Even though I have my own selfish opinion on this, may be it is not such a bad thing and will make those of us on good horses progress quicker than we would done. There must be some reason for it all though?

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Well, i think EVERYONE has their own selfish reasons for thinking what they think...and they have every right imo as it is THEIR organisation after all. Your point about progression is not a valid one though. Good horses will always progress, and really good horses can be progressed in many different ways (you can actually pay to upgrade your horse to B or A at any time if you need to
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)...the argument usually is that horses progress TOO quickly, and that is one of the reasons the Notional winnings were introduced. Of more importance imo is to cater for ALL categories of rider. A pro jockey jumping 4 or 5 horses at 2 or 3 shows a week is going to be able to progress much quicker than an amateur jockey jumping a couple of horses once or twice a month
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Why should the amateur rider not be given the chances to get to the higher levels in the first place...they are already disadvantaged in that they are riding less....surely making the step up even harder is detrimental to them also
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