Buck Brannaman 2019

[cundlegreen]

Well I have a trainer who went to his last demo at Liverpool.She did wonder at the number of people in the arena at any one time but did like some of his stuff including the stuff which helps horse suppleness,something that is close to her heart.I bought his DVD.He started off by doing a master class (which should be viewed by all) in how to bridle a young/sensitive horse.For me it went completely downhill after that.To me personally he came across as an unpleasant bully with anger management issues.That first bit was meant to lead you in by making you think what a nice man he is.It's a mind game.One of the best people I have ever met with horses was a horse driver called John Wilmot whose approach,while utterly effective,was in complete contrast to that DVD.Mind you,John doesn't sell headcollars,books DVDs etc.Anyone who thinks all driving horses are a dodldle needs to think again.His best driving horse was a whilte hispano Arab called Cruella.As I said though.Other people must make up their own minds.Google on this forum Buck Brannaman.

I've watched a lot of his videos online, and think he is an inspiration. However, he is all about the horse, as it should be, and not particularly tolerant of people, so I imagine you dislike that. If he had anger management issues, do you think his horses would be so relaxed and easy in their work??

 

[flying_high]

There seem to be clinics in Colorado in May, June, August and September for 2019 where you can ride his horses. It is worth looking at, as the cost was a lot less than I expected. He recommends modest accommodation and I felt very comfortable travelling alone as you are not alone for long. The weeklong/intensive ones are not just about the horses, it is more about looking at yourself and how you live life. You get a big ol' mirror held up to you and it helps you shift stuff and make changes. It was exhausting but exhilarating at the same time.

That sounds interesting. Do you have a link? I cant see anything on his website? thanks

 

[flying_high]

Well I have a trainer who went to his last demo at Liverpool.She did wonder at the number of people in the arena at any one time but did like some of his stuff including the stuff which helps horse suppleness,something that is close to her heart.I bought his DVD.He started off by doing a master class (which should be viewed by all) in how to bridle a young/sensitive horse.For me it went completely downhill after that.To me personally he came across as an unpleasant bully with anger management issues.That first bit was meant to lead you in by making you think what a nice man he is.It's a mind game..

Are you saying based on watching one DVD of him bridling a horse, you'd never let him touch a horse of yours, because of the way he bridled the horse in the DVD?

 

[Scarlett]

The fact is there's no perfect trainer out there.

The best you can do in these situations is know as much about the trainer as possible. Read book and watch videos and the go and actually do the things they talk about, do the homework. I'm always amazed how many people turn up at clinics unprepared. It's not fair on the horse.

 

[flying_high]

The fact is there's no perfect trainer out there.

The best you can do in these situations is know as much about the trainer as possible. Read book and watch videos and the go and actually do the things they talk about, do the homework. I'm always amazed how many people turn up at clinics unprepared. It's not fair on the horse.

I have read Buck’s books, and seen the DVDs. Nothing on these media would prepare me for turning up for a clinic, and finding there were 30 other riders in the indoor school and it was a 3 hour group session with little individual attention.


Or that Buck demonstrated the exercises all in one go on his horse over a sixty minute session, whilst you sat on your horse, and you were meant to copy for the next two hours. I am not really a visual learner, and would forget the first one if not given a chance to try it before he demonstrated the second exercise.

Also, I cannot imagine sitting on my horse for an hour whilst someone demonstrated, and then continuing to sit on my horse and practise small movements for a further 2 hours. I might sit on my horse for 2-3 hours hacking, but not barely moving in the school. Wouldn’t work for me.

 

[Scarlett]

I have read Buck’s books, and seen the DVDs. Nothing on these media would prepare me for turning up for a clinic, and finding there were 30 other riders in the indoor school and it was a 3 hour group session with little individual attention.


Or that Buck demonstrated the exercises all in one go on his horse over a sixty minute session, whilst you sat on your horse, and you were meant to copy for the next two hours. I am not really a visual learner, and would forget the first one if not given a chance to try it before he demonstrated the second exercise.

Also, I cannot imagine sitting on my horse for an hour whilst someone demonstrated, and then continuing to sit on my horse and practise small movements for a further 2 hours. I might sit on my horse for 2-3 hours hacking, but not barely moving in the school. Wouldn’t work for me.

Whilst I get that it's not really my point and I understand I should have maybe made that clearer.

My point is that the work you will need to do and that the trainer, on this occasion Buck, will be looking for is something you can and should practise in advance.


The format of the clinic is the thing you cant really plan for. You've got no idea what's going to happen and how it will be put across. Yes 30 horses is waaaay too much and something that most, if not all, people will struggle with.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I've watched a lot of his videos online, and think he is an inspiration. However, he is all about the horse, as it should be, and not particularly tolerant of people, so I imagine you dislike that. If he had anger management issues, do you think his horses would be so relaxed and easy in their work??

If it's all about the horse, and not his bank balance, why does he structure his clinics this way? Why not have far fewer demo riders, say 6-8, and work with them more individually. And allow them more breaks and time out during the full session if necessary.

 

[DabDab]

Quite frankly I think this only reflects on how little we ask our horses and how low our expectations are rather than being a poor reflection on Buck.

The things he askes are things you should be able to do. Choosing a pace in walk is part of the very basics of horse training regardless of discipline - and something I am struggling with at the moment on my 5yo - as should be moving the feet individually. Riding a horse truly forward from the leg is something, again, we don't seem to have mastered in this country and is actually the cause of so many issues that people have. The horse should go off a light leg aid first time every time. I don't see what the issue is with the 'with authority' cue. You wont have to do that very often as the horse will learn to go off the softer cue quickly, mine certainly did.

I occasionally train with a 4* eventer and he works on all of those things above before he lets you near a fence.

I think you might have missed the point of AE's (very informative and interesting) post. She didn't say that the 'learning points' that she describes were a poor reflection on Buck at all. Just that the demo environment was a bit much.

Riding a horse forward is not something we've 'never mastered in this country' either. It's something that some people are good at and some people are not (for a whole variety of reasons). Also, a great many riders don't want to 100% concentrate on the horse at all times while riding - they want to bimble around the countryside enjoying the view and like their horses to be fairly self sufficient.

 

[Scarlett]

I think you might have missed the point of AE's (very informative and interesting) post. She didn't say that the 'learning points' that she describes were a poor reflection on Buck at all. Just that the demo environment was a bit much.

Riding a horse forward is not something we've 'never mastered in this country' either. It's something that some people are good at and some people are not (for a whole variety of reasons). Also, a great many riders don't want to 100% concentrate on the horse at all times while riding - they want to bimble around the countryside enjoying the view and like their horses to be fairly self sufficient.

No, not at all. I completely understand the point she was making, I agree. In work and can only post brief replies so it maybe didn't explain my point as well as I like.

Even a hacking horse should be off the leg and yield to the hand IMO. It's not high level schooling or asking a lot, its a basic request - go when you are told and stop when you are told. Forward doesn't mean fast. A horse can be forward and still bimble round the countryside. Go until your told to stop, stop until your told to go. Even if that's just walking it's still, imo, a basic step in training.

 

[DabDab]

No, not at all. I completely understand the point she was making, I agree. In work and can only post brief replies so it maybe didn't explain my point as well as I like.

Even a hacking horse should be off the leg and yield to the hand IMO. It's not high level schooling or asking a lot, its a basic request - go when you are told and stop when you are told. Forward doesn't mean fast. A horse can be forward and still bimble round the countryside. Go until your told to stop, stop until your told to go. Even if that's just walking it's still, imo, a basic step in training.

Of course (i don't think there are many posters on this forum that would argue with that), but there are different degrees to it. And personally I think that's fine as long as people are safe and enjoying their hobby 😉

 

[flying_high]

If it's all about the horse, and not his bank balance, why does he structure his clinics this way? Why not have far fewer demo riders, say 6-8, and work with them more individually. And allow them more breaks and time out during the full session if necessary.

This is something I am struggling to figure out. Plus most horses aren't meant to be sat on and barely moving for 3 hours? And not listening to individual riders for a veterinary reason a horse couldn't have a bit doesn't sound great. I'd want to achieve something with my horse and break once I have achieved it.

 

[JFTDWS]

Quite frankly I think this only reflects on how little we ask our horses and how low our expectations are rather than being a poor reflection on Buck.

I know bugger all about BB. I mean, really, I couldn't pick him out of a line up, or tell you anything he says that would make him stand out from any of the other American cowboy type trainers.

However, I do think this is really true - we do have very low expectations of horses, I think. When you think of how, traditionally, horses had jobs to do and they damn well had to do them - and compare it to now, when people make excuses for their horse lacking even the most basic manners. I mean, I'm all for developments in vet medicine so we recognise pathologies which limit the horse's scope, but I don't see why any [sound, capable] horse shouldn't be responsive, mannerly, and basically pleasant to ride. Adjusting the gait, moving politely and easily in any direction - it's all basic stuff.

 

[Red-1]

That sounds interesting. Do you have a link? I cant see anything on his website? thanks

If you look at the clinic schedule, the ones at Happy Dog Ranch tend to be the ones where horses can be provided.

 

[Ambers Echo]

a great many riders don't want to 100% concentrate on the horse at all times while riding - they want to bimble around the countryside enjoying the view and like their horses to be fairly self sufficient.

I do love a good debate! This is something I struggle with a bit. Buck was very clear that he NEVER 'abandons' the horse, he NEVER just bimbles. Every movement the horse makes on the ground or under saddle has to be 'with quality' and with focus and care and attention. Guy Robertson (a UK based Buck student/trainer) says similar. He uses the phrase 'being particular'. When the horse is in a field being a horse he can do what he wants. When he is haltered he is 'at work' and needs to be on it. His job might be to stand still while you fix fence, or stand still while you sit on him and listen to a trainer. So he should not pull to grass, or rub his head on you or fidget, or stamp his feet or itch his nose on his leg. Instead he should be relaxed and attentive, waiting for the next instruction.

I remember at the time thinking this is all a bit too much like hard work. It's a HOBBY and I really do sometimes just want to go on a hack with my friends and have a chat and let the horse get on with it with me having stay concentrated and focused. On the other hand I don't want the horse to spook or spin or tank off and Buck says the 2 things go hand in hand. If you let you horse get on with it then that's fine - he will happily take over the decision making but he will know he is 'alone' so if something goes wrong he will take whatever action he deems appropriate which is unlikely to be a response you want. I had more or less decided to ignore this part of the method when I was hacking round the farm ride at Somerford. On the buckle gossiping. A pheasant flew out, Amber spun and I did not even know anything had happened before landing flat on my back. She has never spun before even with similar levels of triggering and I now believe that she would have been less reactive if she believed I was mentally engaged with her.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I do think this is really true - we do have very low expectations of horses, I think. When you think of how, traditionally, horses had jobs to do and they damn well had to do them - and compare it to now, when people make excuses for their horse lacking even the most basic manners.

I agree - I have noticed more and more how unable horses are to just obey basic commands! In a group hack we always start with the debate about who needs to be at the front and who can't be left behind and who won't tolerate being overtaken etc etc. (I am TOTALLY including me and Amber in that by the way!)

At Weston Lawns (affiliated showjumping) in the show-jump warm up arenas horses were rearing, spinning, napping, backing up and running people over. They could not just walk forward politely when asked.

I am impatient and I love show jumping and XC riding but I am aware that Amber lacks what Buck would consider a basic foundation which is the 'do what I say immediately in all gaits and speeds, without tension (mental or physical) regardless of what else is going on around you' foundation. I am working on that while I do other fun stuff so I believe we will get there in the end, but there are plenty of horses who never get anywhere near that and plenty of riders who don't see that as valuable. And that is fine - it is just a hobby after all and it is totally up to each individual what matters to them. If you are happy clearing a warm up arena on a whirling dervish and then going in and jumping clear then fine. But I personally just really like horses with a good foundation who are responsive but calm, powerful and expressive but mannerly and obedient. I am sure there are 100 ways to get there - people like Buck and Guy just offer one option that teaches this foundation.

 

[JFTDWS]

I do love a good debate! This is something I struggle with a bit. Buck was very clear that he NEVER 'abandons' the horse, he NEVER just bimbles...

I'm *never* 100% on the horse. I almost invariably have either music, or (more often) an audiobook playing on my phone. I definitely get better results this way - 100% of me is too much, I need diluting down, like strong acid...

There's definitely merit in what he's saying there - but it doesn't always equate to the average amateur who has leisure horses. There's probably a nice middle ground where you can give your horse some leeway, and not completely abandon them to feral wildness!

 

[Scarlett]

I agree - I have noticed more and more how unable horses are to just obey basic commands! In a group hack we always start with the debate about who needs to be at the front and who can't be left behind and who won't tolerate being overtaken etc etc. (I am TOTALLY including me and Amber in that by the way!)

At Weston Lawns (affiliated showjumping) in the show-jump warm up arenas horses were rearing, spinning, napping, backing up and running people over. They could not just walk forward politely when asked.

I am impatient and I love show jumping and XC riding but I am aware that Amber lacks what Buck would consider a basic foundation which is the 'do what I say immediately in all gaits and speeds, without tension (mental or physical) regardless of what else is going on around you' foundation. I am working on that while I do other fun stuff so I believe we will get there in the end, but there are plenty of horses who never get anywhere near that and plenty of riders who don't see that as valuable. And that is fine - it is just a hobby after all and it is totally up to each individual what matters to them. If you are happy clearing a warm up arena on a whirling dervish and then going in and jumping clear then fine. But I personally just really like horses with a good foundation who are responsive but calm, powerful and expressive but mannerly and obedient. I am sure there are 100 ways to get there - people like Buck and Guy just offer one option that teaches this foundation.

This.

I've messed a few horses up before I realised this. I got a new trainer who is North American and believes the same. It was shock to the system initially.

Took a long time to train myself and longer to train my horses, but it works and it was worth it.

Also I've watched or ridden with some excellent 'english' riders over the years and they all do the same thing in their own way.

 

[Tiddlypom]

OP, if I read the Total Horsemanship FB page correctly, you are paying £600 plus stabling for this?! IMHO that is an outrageous amount of money for a big group clinic. It would pay for a lot of 1:1 sessions with other decent trainers.

'A date for the diary!!!

I'm pleased to announce the 2019 dates for Bucks clinic at Aintree UK. They are from the 7 - 9 June 2019. Spectator tickets will go on sale early December. There are some rider places available. If you are interested and have not ridden with Buck in the UK previously, please EMAIL me sales@*************** putting BUCK RIDER 2019 in the subject bar and giving a brief description of you horsemanship journey.

Rider places are £600.00 + stabling costs. Spectator tickets are £50.00 per person per day. All those who have previously ridden with Buck last year or in 2015 will have first refusals. All those who have emailed in response to the post on the Buck rider 2019 page have a rider place confirmed.

Look forward to seeing you all again in June 2019! 🐎😁😁'

 

[Red-1]

OP, if I read the Total Horsemanship FB page correctly, you are paying £600 plus stabling for this?! IMHO that is an outrageous amount of money for a big group clinic. It would pay for a lot of 1:1 sessions with other decent trainers.

'A date for the diary!!!

I'm pleased to announce the 2019 dates for Bucks clinic at Aintree UK. They are from the 7 - 9 June 2019. Spectator tickets will go on sale early December. There are some rider places available. If you are interested and have not ridden with Buck in the UK previously, please EMAIL me sales@totalhorsemanship.co.uk putting BUCK RIDER 2019 in the subject bar and giving a brief description of you horsemanship journey.

Rider places are £600.00 + stabling costs. Spectator tickets are £50.00 per person per day. All those who have previously ridden with Buck last year or in 2015 will have first refusals. All those who have emailed in response to the post on the Buck rider 2019 page have a rider place confirmed.

Look forward to seeing you all again in June 2019! 🐎😁😁'

I agree, I just spent £500 for Guy Robertson clinic, including stabling and lunch. There ended up as only 3 of us there, so loads of 1-1 attention. There was use of the arena, obstacle field, cows, flag training (for cutting) and whatever you wanted really. I even learned to rope on a dummy cow. I think it could have been up to 5 hours riding a day if you needed that, which we did not!

I can't remember the cost of the Mark Rashid clinic in America, but I think around £800 at a wild guess, but that included FAB lunch, horses for the duration, 5 days of intensive work including homework and even a couple of evenings (such as in the dojo or a BBQ). I seem to think there were maybe 6-8 on each clinic. That was tremendous value.

Manu McLean is expensive £85 for a one hour lesson, no stabling, but that is 1-1 and she is inspirational. I think her husband was a tad more expensive, again 1-1.

I guess for some peple it would be worth it, but for me the bigger bargain is the £50 spectator fee (per day).

 

[Tarragon]

[QUOTE="
Also, I cannot imagine sitting on my horse for an hour whilst someone demonstrated, and then continuing to sit on my horse and practise small movements for a further 2 hours. I might sit on my horse for 2-3 hours hacking, but not barely moving in the school. Wouldn’t work for me.[/QUOTE]

These were my thoughts too - really not fair on the horse I think!

 

[Ambers Echo]

Buck (and Mark Rashid & Guy Robertson actually) expect the horse to just get on with their job - whatever that is. A horse is expected to work and work might mean a lot of standing around in between doing things.

In the actual clinic, time went surprisingly fast and I actually worked Amber in between the ridden sessions too from the ground as did several other people. She did seem mentally quite tired (lots of yawning and sighing by day 3) but she was settled and concentrating and did not seem under any stress after the 1st day which unsettled her. She was WAY more stressed in the warm-ups at Weston Lawns and seemed affected by that for a few weeks afterwards

 

[eahotson]

I've watched a lot of his videos online, and think he is an inspiration. However, he is all about the horse, as it should be, and not particularly tolerant of people, so I imagine you dislike that. If he had anger management issues, do you think his horses would be so relaxed and easy in their work??

I didn't think his horses were relaxed.While in France I watched 2 girls coax their reluctant horses up a hill.One was novice and one very novice.It didn't take them long and there was no spinning or shooting off etc.I think there was a strong trust between the girls and their horses and the horses knew they wouldn't be bullied.Some of the OBEDIENT horses are in fact in a state of learned helplessness.

 

[JFTDWS]

I have no qualms about asking a horse to stand around in those circumstances. I expect mine to stand and be mannerly when we're out and about. Routinely, I wouldn't ask them to stand around for hours as it's not overly convenient, but in principle it's a good skill for a horse to have in its life. Certainly there have been events where mine's ability to switch off and chill for significant periods of time has been useful. I've also been at events where there are 12-15 horses in a fairly small indoor arena, all working in free order - it's a bit carnage-y, but I still expect basic manners from my horses.

 

[DabDab]

I'm *never* 100% on the horse. I almost invariably have either music, or (more often) an audiobook playing on my phone. I definitely get better results this way - 100% of me is too much, I need diluting down, like strong acid...

There's definitely merit in what he's saying there - but it doesn't always equate to the average amateur who has leisure horses. There's probably a nice middle ground where you can give your horse some leeway, and not completely abandon them to feral wildness!

Yep, ditto 😄
And actually one of the first thing I teach young horses is 'thou shall not lose your sh1t the moment I'm not holding your hand'

 

[Berpisc]

I think so many horses do not work for a living as they used to. Some of this is good (read Black Beauty in its original) but some not so good. The point about expectation is especially valid. Actually horses are amazingly courageous and adaptable and don't need to be babied, but in a human world they do need to attend to us.
A lot of the forwardness and control of feet reminds me of classical horsemanship which overlaps into the well known trainers we see today.
Or maybe I am just a daft old bat.

 

[TPO]

Remind me never to start a thread in HHO again... Ha ha

Lots of food for thought.

Thank you everyone who shared their experiences from attending the previous Buck clinics. Thank you Amber's Echo (apologies for always referring to you as Amber's mum, I'm not sure where I fabricated that!) for such detailed replies; I've found them really helpful.

I'll be attending on a horse that will still be green (haven't actually backed him yet ) although I'll have him out at clinics prior to June, and this thread has given me a few wobbles. I've had a talk with my very level headed and long term friend Scarlett who has had to endure very lengthy conversations where I automatically reach the worst conclusion but she's straightened me out and I'm still planning to go.

My horse comes first always so despite being a huge wimp if it's too much for him I'll happily embarrass myself by leaving (I'll ask politely first!). Yes it's £600 but I knew that going in and I'm happy to pay that, and the associated costs, to attend and train under BB. Who needs holidays/clothes/a life/food anyway?

I appreciate that he may not be everyone's cup of tea and that's absolutely fine. I have similarly strong feelings about Clinton Anderson, Warwick Schiller, Parelli and Monty yet I know they all have hoards of their own fans. TBH prior to this thread I've never heard of a negative or bad word being uttered about BB or Mark Rashid.

I promise to report back (You know, if we aren't trampled to death by 30 other horses! Ha ha) and if I can get my finger out I'll try to post about our lead up to and preparation for our big weekend in case anyone is interested...even if just to say "I told you so" ha ha.

Please also ignore any spelling mistakes, grammatical errors or random full stops. My phone has a huge grievance with me and gets revenge in these ways...

 

[TPO]

I think so many horses do not work for a living as they used to. Some of this is good (read Black Beauty in its original) but some not so good. The point about expectation is especially valid. Actually horses are amazingly courageous and adaptable and don't need to be babied, but in a human world they do need to attend to us.
A lot of the forwardness and control of feet reminds me of classical horsemanship which overlaps into the well known trainers we see today.
Or maybe I am just a daft old bat.

I was liking your sentiment and NOT that you are a daft old bat!

 

[DabDab]

Will be really interested in threads about it you post 😃
I actually think it sounds like a unique experience to have with a young horse that your just building a ridden relationship with. And I bet that a)you'll get loads out of it and b)you'll not be remotely concerned about taking your youngster into any new scenarios afterwards

Are you backing your youngster yourself?

 

[Ambers Echo]

I am really looking forward to hearing about it. I hope you get loads from it. I might go and watch for a day.

 

[TPO]

Will be really interested in threads about it you post 😃
I actually think it sounds like a unique experience to have with a young horse that your just building a ridden relationship with. And I bet that a)you'll get loads out of it and b)you'll not be remotely concerned about taking your youngster into any new scenarios afterwards

Are you backing your youngster yourself?

It's a long story...

I unknowingly bought him in poor condition direct from the stud so he's always been 12-18mths behind physically. We've done a lot of ground work and I've sat in him but never ridden him if that makes sense. He should have been started at 5 (last year) but my work was manic and all consuming so I had zero time or energy. This year has been a nightmare for numerous reasons. The silver lining was that my olds bought a place so the horses could live there and we'd escape livery... however they don't have a school or lights and are selfishly prioritising building their new house over a school?! I also managed, after years of back issues, to trap my sciatic nerve and put myself out of action and into a lot of pain.

It was with a heavy heart that I decided to send him to a trainer to get his groundwork freshened up and for him to be ridden. Even longer story short, after paying 6wks up front, he was home on day 14 after I visited on day 12 to find an injured and lame horse. Transpires I hadn't been getting told the truth about what was going on but that can be a story for another day (day 12 I was there for physio and he had 2 days off so trainer wasn't near him day 13 or 14, he wasn't lifted sooner because I couldn't get off work and yes I feel guilty about that too). Subsequent vet visits later and 7wks have passed yet he's still not settled and has changed into a really jumpy, nervy horse with a new fear of gates. I've owned him since he was two and his current behaviour is completely out of character.

So now I'm on the hunt for the mythical safe, friendly, quiet livery yard with good facilities so that I can start over again and try to make it up to him while my parents come to their sense and realise caravan life is the future and they'd be happier with a school than a house!

So in short, yes I was/am hoping to starting myself. I've backed horses before but it's been 15yrs since my last batch and they were ferals in the Australian outback and I don't bounce the same at this age. So we'll see. I will never send him to anyone again but if I can find a good trainer I'm happy to have help and guidance. If it all goes horribly wrong I'm sure we'll stand out to BB in the worst ways and he'll hopefully help me to help Chip or you know help Chip to tolerate me!