Buck Brannaman vs. Monty Roberts

better half said:
I think open debate like this can save the time and effort, to work out form other peoples experiences what will and won't work long term, and save the horses bad experiences.
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I think a free exchange of ideas is essential but I stand by my point that it's not really a "this guy vs that guy" conversation, it's about various methods, their long term repercussions etc. You know what they say, ask three horsemen, get four opinions. ;)

That said, my experience of GREAT horsemen - from all disciplines - is that they are remarkably open and interested in how other people get things done with horses. They don't necessarily take other people's methods for their own, even ones they approve of, because they may not be applicable to their circumstances or fit in with the rest of their system or even just be something they want to do. There is more than one way to make a good horse.

How people come across PERSONALLY is a different conversation. But I do think, especially here, oddly enough, this has often detracted from an accurate picture of various methods and people's horsemanship. Just like in any other field of riding. It's easy to get caught up in the hype, both for and against.

I also think that while the internet is a great forum for discussion, it particularly falls down when judging how accurate someone's ideas about horses and riding might be. It's impossible to tell a posters background, level of experience or their personal interaction with the various systems - they may have been taught by the best proponent, they may have experienced the worst, there is no way to tell! I'm surprised how many people for VERY strong opinions with no first hand, or even second hand knowledge. Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion but I do think sometimes people find it easier to be "against" something - in any walk of life - than face the messy reality that there may be valid ideas in systems that don't appeal over all or that are put forward by people who are otherwise not particularly attractive!
 
i think any trainer nh or otherwise who puts down their pupils as mentioned earlier is wrong.

people should be encouraged to be their best, even the most novice rider can have some positive qualities on which to build.

as the rider is in charge of the horse it is the teacher 's job is to not give up until the pupil understands thoroughly and confidently how to proceed, and ask for what he wants the horse to perform.

to tell someone to go away and ruin the horse again, is not only rude it proves the teacher has failed to get their pupil to the next level and their lack of faith in the pupil is their own condemnation
 
tristar said:
i think any trainer nh or otherwise who puts down their pupils as mentioned earlier is wrong.

people should be encouraged to be their best, even the most novice rider can have some positive qualities on which to build.

as the rider is in charge of the horse it is the teacher 's job is to not give up until the pupil understands thoroughly and confidently how to proceed, and ask for what he wants the horse to perform.

to tell someone to go away and ruin the horse again, is not only rude it proves the teacher has failed to get their pupil to the next level and their lack of faith in the pupil is their own condemnation
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Rude, perhaps. We weren't there so we can't judge. But just because someone is a good horseman it doesn't necessarily follow that they're also a good teacher. As the old saying goes 'Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach' ;)
 
Why does it have to be 'versus'? Why not ask what we can learn from both of them? I certainly encourage my students to take the opportunity to learn from everyone they can - why wouldn't I? The only people no-one wants to watch are those types that knock every other trainer - that's just sad if they've got no other way to promote themselves.

Re. those who can DO, those who can't TEACH - I quote that on my courses as to why it's so important to me to have my own horses so I'm not only continuing to DO but also continuing to learn - Anneli Drummond-Hay said you need at least to lifetimes to learn enough about horses - how brilliant is that comment?!
 
IHK said:
Why does it have to be 'versus'? Why not ask what we can learn from both of them? I certainly encourage my students to take the opportunity to learn from everyone they can - why wouldn't I? The only people no-one wants to watch are those types that knock every other trainer - that's just sad if they've got no other way to promote themselves.
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You have said everything I have wanted to say since this thread started but much better and far more nicely than I could have done.

Like!
 
IHK said:
Why does it have to be 'versus'? Why not ask what we can learn from both of them? I certainly encourage my students to take the opportunity to learn from everyone they can - why wouldn't I? The only people no-one wants to watch are those types that knock every other trainer - that's just sad if they've got no other way to promote themselves.

Re. those who can DO, those who can't TEACH - I quote that on my courses as to why it's so important to me to have my own horses so I'm not only continuing to DO but also continuing to learn -!
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I think all trainers should not feel bad about criticism it is how things develop and get better. MR and IHK sold 1000’s of Be-Nice halters. On a demo tour years ago they ordered hundreds of Be-Nice pressure halters in U.S. sizes. The horse sizes are much smaller than U.K. horses so towards the end of the tour they had a lot of the small size left.

MR then put the small size on a foal, even though it reared up and went over backwards in the demo all the small sizes sold that night! At a meeting after, only one person spoke up and was not on the next tour. I regret not backing them up, but it was a brave thing to question MR.

Pressure halters were used by cowboys in extreme situations to get a horse to fight its way out of a bog, not for ground work schooling. The level of communication in Join-Up is screaming not whispering in my opinion, how long it will take now, to see the psychological bullying is as bad as physical bullying.

Only 10 or more years later did they look into the part of the problem……….‘Monty was originally looking to design an effective training halter for leading and loading that was also humane, practical and easy for anyone to use. He wanted something that did NOT use excessive poll pressure which can cause soreness and rearing – meaning he wanted a material with quality flat surfaces and not rope’. Quote IKM

Tom Dorrance was the Father of Natural Horsemanship he has a great book called True Unity ISBN 1-884995-09-8.
Monty Roberts was apprentice to Bill Dorrance, Tom’s brother.
Ray Hunt worked with Tom Dorrance and Parelli went to Ray Hunt Clinics.
I though with Buck Brannaman it would be interesting to see which bits of Tom Dorrance he saw and learnt.

Years ago I had lunch with Ray Hunt at a clinic after he had saddled 20 young horses for the first time and had them all in a corral waiting to be ridden after lunch. He was a very ‘Humble’ man and said ‘ He would not even call himself a horseman as he still had so much to learn , the only Horseman he knew was Tom Dorrance’. I think those that ‘do’ know how humbling any horse can be.
 
slightly off topic but im thrilled to hear monty roberts has recived an award from the queen - well deserved achievement for a wonderful man :)
 
It's just a little saying that people trot out, I don't think it's true.
Those that can, do.
Those that can't, teach.
I think just go see as many as you can and make your minds up from there.
 
tristar said:
i wish i could understand the thinking behind: those who can't, teach.?
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OK, I'll try to explain ...

If you excel at something, then you will 'be' it eg a brilliant musician, scientist, mathematician or whatever. If you're only average at it you probably won't make the grade, and these tend to be the people who end up teaching the subject to others. Nobody can be good at everything - teaching is a skill in its own right. Some people have a gift for teaching, others don't. Those who are gifted in what they do don't necessarily make good teachers.

I hope this makes sense :)
 
Golf Girl said:
OK, I'll try to explain ...

If you excel at something, then you will 'be' it eg a brilliant musician, scientist, mathematician or whatever. If you're only average at it you probably won't make the grade, and these tend to be the people who end up teaching the subject to others. Nobody can be good at everything - teaching is a skill in its own right. Some people have a gift for teaching, others don't. Those who are gifted in what they do don't necessarily make good teachers.

I hope this makes sense :)
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I think if they are that good at just 'doing' they probably could make a living from 'doing' any extra teaching could then be as they choose and there fore not at average price, or just people they like. Any teacher must first know their subject, so get the best you can afford.
 
better half said:
Any teacher must first know their subject, so get the best you can afford.
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This is not always true - i recently swapped private instructors.
The first was good but quite expensive and when another instructor came on the yard i thought i would try her
She was excellent and actually suited me better than the first instructor and was a third of the price cheaper.
 
darkhorse123 said:
better half said:
Any teacher must first know their subject, so get the best you can afford.
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This is not always true - i recently swapped private instructors.
The first was good but quite expensive and when another instructor came on the yard i thought i would try her
She was excellent and actually suited me better than the first instructor and was a third of the price cheaper.
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Agreed. 'More expensive' does not necessarily mean 'better' - ever! The most important thing is to find what suits YOU :)
 
darkhorse123 said:
This is not always true - i recently swapped private instructors.
The first was good but quite expensive and when another instructor came on the yard i thought i would try her
She was excellent and actually suited me better than the first instructor and was a third of the price cheaper.
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Maybe BH is trying to Push her OH's tagline "Reasurringly Expensive":rolleyes:
 
Golf Girl said:
Agreed. 'More expensive' does not necessarily mean 'better' - ever! The most important thing is to find what suits YOU :)
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I agree more expensive does not always mean better, but get someone who can 'do' not just talk about it.

My friend teaches Fencing and had a new student that had so many bad habbits from his last teacher to start again he made him change to Fence with his left hand rather than go back and correct old habbits with his right hand.

Only perfect practice makes perfect.
 
I live in Lexington Kentucky and I'm a Travel Writer and guide for a local touring company named Bluegrass Tours. My job is to lead people around the world's greatest horse farms. Seabiscuit was bred and born here. The movie Sea Biscuit was filmed here and I've watched it probably 20 times because I just love the story. When the movie "Buck" came out last year, I went to see it and all of a sudden I connected, "The Horse Whisper," "Buck" and NH trainer Tom Smith (the trainer of Seabiscuit.) Lexington is rich in the history of Seabiscuit so it fed my interest.

Last September (2013) I spent two glorious consecutive weeks at Buck Brannaman clinics as an observer. If you are a horse lover and have never had the opportunity to see Buck, I suggest you figure it out. I've watched Monty Roberts videos and I think he is a great guy. I don't have any problem with his training or techniques, but Buck isn't putting on a show. He teaches real people with real horses how to do what he does. Sometimes he is short with riders, but only because they are the ones with the problems and they are not willing to learn. It's not their horses fault. Honestly, he doesn't care about the feelings of the riders, he only cares about the horses and from my research and reading, that's how Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance were too.

I've read all his books and seen all his videos many times but meeting him and seeing him in person was one of the great experiences of my life. Buck Brannaman is a humble gentleman who has devoted his life to helping horses with people problems. He has my ultimate respect.
 
Well slightly off topic BUT if people can't teach without bullying they shouldn't be doing it however good they are in practice.I feel strongly about this as I have met a fair few bullies in the horse teaching world and I won't tolerate it.Most of us are aware that we have many short comings in the horse world and much to learn.Thats why we have lessons, go to demos,read books etc.We are trying and I am sure my instructor would agree with that!!!!!! If you bully people you alienate them and what happens to the horse then.
 
better half said:
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MR then put the small size on a foal, even though it reared up and went over backwards in the demo all the small sizes sold that night! At a meeting after, only one person spoke up and was not on the next tour. I regret not backing them up, but it was a brave thing to question MR.
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I like/respect MR from what I have watched/read. But if this is true it's a sad thing. Horse welfare should always come before brand/profit and people who care for horses should never be discouraged from pointing that out.

That being said, do you know that this person's questioning of MR was the reason they weren't on the next tour?

That paints a not very nice picture of MR camp politics - which may be undeserved if the reason he didn't attend the next tour was unrelated to the events of said meeting.
 
SarahF said:
I like/respect MR from what I have watched/read. But if this is true it's a sad thing. Horse welfare should always come before brand/profit and people who care for horses should never be discouraged from pointing that out.

That being said, do you know that this person's questioning of MR was the reason they weren't on the next tour?

That paints a not very nice picture of MR camp politics - which may be undeserved if the reason he didn't attend the next tour was unrelated to the events of said meeting.
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There are a lot of unpaid volunteers helping on MR tours, so there could be other reasons why this person wasn't at the next one.

I think this is what's termed a Zombie Thread.

Anyway, I hear that Buck B is going to be at the Dublin Show this year. Might be interesting to some. Looking at how much time Honza Blaha got last year I do wonder how long he will be seen in an arena though, Honza got little 15 minute slots.
 
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