Buck Brannaman vs. Monty Roberts

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better half

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At Monty Roberts early Demo's that I went to he sold 'The Horse Whisperer' book and said it was about him.

The book 'Thanks' Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman who seem to have more empathy, for any one who was lucky enough to see Ray Hunt in action will know what I mean he came over to Warwickshire in 1997. I have not seen Buck Brannaman, but if he trained with Tom Dorrance I think we are about to see a new level of NH.
 
Post deleted because I am not interested in vs bashing threads anymore. I want to learn not spend my time bashing.
 
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I am familiar with all those names and have read books. Anyone interested in NH and improving themselves will look around. Great to mention other names etc. but the clue to the tone of the thread is in the title 'vs' and your first response.
I think 'Believe' is BB's best book. Many owners with personal issues as well as horsemanship issues. Par for the course really.
Anyway I'm off. :D
 
Well he doesn't seem to talk jargon; which is nice;)

"All your horses are a mirror to your soul and sometimes you might not like what you see in the mirror"

That's a great quote:)
 
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Buck Brannaman was the horseman involved in The Horse Whisperer, that has been confirmed by himself and the author several times. Interestingly to some, he and his brother had an awful life with their physcially abusive father, who worked them hard and beat them up regularly. This is documented fact and they were eventually taken into care and fostered.
I'm not getting into Monty bashing, what he says is up to him.
People often speak about the scene where the horse is laid down in the Horse Whisperer as being abusive, and Buck B responds to this very well in one of his books. Basically, he explains all about the horse he used in filming and says that the film isn't intended to be about horse training, it's a love story.
I don't know if we are about to see a new level of NH, Buck has been around for a very long time and is well known. I am fairly certain he'd be horrified to be called a new level of NH. I suppose he's a vaquero cowboy, but I'm not sure what description he'd apply to himself! We're talking precisely trained horses and riders, horses carrying themselves well and independently. Not the scuffling with heads down that some associate with western riding. You can find out a lot about his style of horsemanship if you look at the Eclectic Horseman website, and maybe subscribe to the magazine. I think it shows that the people behind that site, including Buck, don't think that there is only one way of doing things with horses.
If Buck came to the UK, which I doubt he needs to, I think many people would be pretty shocked by some of what he does. He can be pretty tough, but would make sure that was a short experience for the horse, ideally never repeated. He can also be so gentle and soft, and I think he has amazing empathy with the horses, with great timing and feel. Whatever you think about his methods, it is clear that his starting point is his absolute and unswerving love of horses. He loves horses so much that he can be frighteningly intolerant of the people that come with them. I have seen him in a clinic berating a rider for making her horse heavy, sorting things out with the horse, then handing it back saying something along the lines of "there you go, see how quickly you can mess your horse up again. He doesn't deserve that.". He can be very scarey.
I learn with a friend who has been said to be "Like Buck Brannaman with customer care". (But I'm not going to advertise here!). While I understand some of what Buck is doing, I find it a bit too full-on for my liking and try to learn a little of the sort of stuff he teaches but differently. I would be far too frightened to ride with him.
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Tinypony said:
Buck Brannaman was the horseman involved in The Horse Whisperer, that has been confirmed by himself and the author several times. Interestingly to some, he and his brother had an awful life with their physcially abusive father, who worked them hard and beat them up regularly. This is documented fact and they were eventually taken into care and fostered.
I'm not getting into Monty bashing, what he says is up to him.
People often speak about the scene where the horse is laid down in the Horse Whisperer as being abusive, and Buck B responds to this very well in one of his books. Basically, he explains all about the horse he used in filming and says that the film isn't intended to be about horse training, it's a love story.
I don't know if we are about to see a new level of NH, Buck has been around for a very long time and is well known. I am fairly certain he'd be horrified to be called a new level of NH. I suppose he's a vaquero cowboy, but I'm not sure what description he'd apply to himself! We're talking precisely trained horses and riders, horses carrying themselves well and independently. Not the scuffling with heads down that some associate with western riding. You can find out a lot about his style of horsemanship if you look at the Eclectic Horseman website, and maybe subscribe to the magazine. I think it shows that the people behind that site, including Buck, don't think that there is only one way of doing things with horses.
If Buck came to the UK, which I doubt he needs to, I think many people would be pretty shocked by some of what he does. He can be pretty tough, but would make sure that was a short experience for the horse, ideally never repeated. He can also be so gentle and soft, and I think he has amazing empathy with the horses, with great timing and feel. Whatever you think about his methods, it is clear that his starting point is his absolute and unswerving love of horses. He loves horses so much that he can be frighteningly intolerant of the people that come with them. I have seen him in a clinic berating a rider for making her horse heavy, sorting things out with the horse, then handing it back saying something along the lines of "there you go, see how quickly you can mess your horse up again. He doesn't deserve that.". He can be very scarey.
I learn with a friend who has been said to be "Like Buck Brannaman with customer care". (But I'm not going to advertise here!). While I understand some of what Buck is doing, I find it a bit too full-on for my liking and try to learn a little of the sort of stuff he teaches but differently. I would be far too frightened to ride with him.
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Very interesting thank you.
 
amandap said:
I think 'Believe' is BB's best book. Many owners with personal issues as well as horsemanship issues. Par for the course really.
Anyway I'm off. :D
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I don't know 'Believe'

but Ray Hunt has a great book called 'Cowboy Logic' good photo's and great quotes. Like: 'Recognize the smallest change, the slightest try'.

He shows how subtle horsemanship can be.
 
Tinypony said:
I learn with a friend who has been said to be "Like Buck Brannaman with customer care".
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"Like"

Great to see people looking behind the headlines, so many people are out there doing great work for horses without a huge publicity contingent.
 
Betterhalf, Buck Brannaman has been teaching in the US for many years, there are others like Jack Brainard and Martin Black if you like the sort of style that Buck teaches, they are just the first to come to mind. In the UK, Steve Halfpenny comes over twice a year, and is very much along the same lines. He has just been to Light Hands Horsemanship (you can Google) and it will be interesting to see what he's brought back from that.
There's loads of interesting stuff going on that stretches what people tend to label as NH. It's not NH really, just horsemanship (from different angles maybe?).
 
better half said:
I don't know 'Believe'

but Ray Hunt has a great book called 'Cowboy Logic' good photo's and great quotes. Like: 'Recognize the smallest change, the slightest try'.

He shows how subtle horsemanship can be.
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I was lucky enough to meet Ray and his family a a few years ago he was a truely amazing horseman.... Feel,Timing and Balance...
 
im feeling pretty bad now as a novice - again - i really dont understand the argument - how can anyone not like monty - hes non violence, enough for me xxx
 
Has anyone said they don't like Monty? I'm not saying that I do, but I haven't said I don't... Yes, he does say he is non violence.
I think it is very interesting to see lots of different horse people in action.
 
The more trainers you see, the better equipped you are to decide what will work for you and a particular horse. Watch and learn, you'll see some things you like and can replicate, and somethings you don't like - or maybe don't understand at the time - but file it all away and become an educated, discriminatory (sp??) horseperson.
 
Buck has actually written 4 books, the first of which, Groundwork was published in 1997 and the most well known, The Far Away Horses in 2003. He was already well known before that and, of course, comes from a very established tradition. Tom Dorrance's book, True Unity, and Ray Hunt's Think Harmony With Horses are both "must reads" on the subject. Both were published in the mid 90s but their authors were well known before and regularly referenced in magazines etc.

As a transplanted North American it's interesting to me to see who is "popular" or "new" here. There are some trainers who are/were HUGE in the US but almost undiscussed here, perhaps most notably John Lyons, who is in some ways one of the most "mainstream" in that he's written a large number of books, used to publish a magazine, has a host of dvds etc. (He's also very religious - perhaps that doesn't play so well out of the US. ;) ) I saw a reference on here recently to Chris Irwin's work - very popular in Canada (because he is one) and perhaps a bit more "low key" in his training methods than some of the big name Americans. At the very least, "new" is a relative term because often people who are new here have been going somewhere else for decades.
 
Another "old master" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Monte-Foremans-Horse-Training-Science/dp/0806115831 (Maybe a bit "old school" by many standards but an interesting blending of the study of the horse with practical work.)

This is an interesting, if not entirely unbiased, overview of a number of systems http://www.amazon.co.uk/Top-Horse-Training-Methods-Explored/dp/0715317768.

Oh, and then there's this guy from 1908 http://www.jessebeery.com/background/, or John Rarey http://www.rarey.com/sites/jsrarey/, from the mid 1800s, published in 1850. . . as they say, there are no new stories. ;)

I know the "point" of this thread, btw :D, I'm just saying that there is LOTS of information out there and a wide range of views on the subject. I'd also say they aren't really that disparate if you leave out some of the cheerleading. After all, horses are only ever horses. :)
 
I did some stuff with a John Lyons trainer who was in the UK for a while. It was interesting, maybe not quite what I was looking for, but I got some good ideas from him.
Rarey is interesting and controversial!
I saw Phil Rodey in Australia a few times, and he is a fascinating trainer. Then there's Phillip Nye in Tasmania, but he doesn't emerge to teach very often. He blew me away.
It's all a great adventure isn't it?
 
TarrSteps said:
I'm just saying that there is LOTS of information out there and a wide range of views on the subject. I'd also say they aren't really that disparate if you leave out some of the cheerleading. After all, horses are only ever horses. :)
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Interesting links Tarrsteps, thanks.

I'm not familiar with and haven't heard of some of the people you and Tinypony mention but I'd agree to a large extent with your quote above. :)
I've yet to find any trainer or theory that fits 100% with me. ;) I don't expect to either tbh, we are all individuals with minds and experiences of our own. I don't wish to be a clone or robot if I can help it. :p

Mta... perhaps it's interpretation of some theories I don't fit 100% with? lol
 
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On the Antipodean front, Tom Roberts and his "Horse Control" books (published early 70s although clearly reprints) are also very good reading. I find him particularly interesting because although he lived and worked in Australia most of his life, he was in the British Army in WWI, received a fair bit of Cavalry and classical training, and is considered by many "the man who brought dressage to Australia". So an interesting mix of approaches and an emphasis on producing "English-style" competition horses.

I think it can also be a case of understanding context, too. Some very well known trainers actually have a fairly narrow background - lots of horses, years of experience, but with a limited range of types of horses and desired end results. Some practices and philosophies transfer well, some need tweaking to be truly appropriate for other areas. There also seems to be a real desire to place the "New World" schools and trainers - North American, Australia etc. - over other traditions, which may be equally thoughtful and "horse-centric". People love a cowboy. ;) They also love black and white, so it turns into a competition rather than a recognition of common ground.

I was most entertained when the Parellis (don't freak out, it's just an example ;) ) teamed up with a well known dressage trainer and bought a horse for big money at Verden or similar with lots of hue and cry about how they were going to make a top class GP horse using only their methods. Never heard another word about it. The NH system is not about making top class GP horses. Elements and principles of the approach can be incorporated but at the end of the day there are some fundamental differences in the desired end results and anyone looking to mix and match programs has to understand what, when and how much.

I do think there's a lot to be said for really learning about a system before you embrace or condemn it, as it's impossible to see how it all fits together long term from a few moments here and there. But I also think it's important to keep your ultimate goals in mind and keep asking yourself "Does this/will this benefit me and my horse?" at each step on the way.

By definition, it's hard to assess information you're not familiar with and anything "new" - to you at least - is going to seem exciting and potentially a pot of gold. But you only get to know a system by using it and that feeling of excitement will inevitably wear off. The proof is in the long term results. (Although people do have to remember, these days, the "result" some programs are trying to attain is profit. ;) ) People and programs go in and out of fashion, not because they're necessarily "good" or "bad" but because that's the way the world works.
 
TarrSteps said:
I think it can also be a case of understanding context, too. Some very well known trainers actually have a fairly narrow background - lots of horses, years of experience, but with a limited range of types of horses and desired end results.

I do think there's a lot to be said for really learning about a system before you embrace or condemn it, as it's impossible to see how it all fits together long term from a few moments here and there. But I also think it's important to keep your ultimate goals in mind and keep asking yourself "Does this/will this benefit me and my horse?" at each step on the way.

By definition, it's hard to assess information you're not familiar with and anything "new" - to you at least - is going to seem exciting and potentially a pot of gold. But you only get to know a system by using
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I think open debate like this can save the time and effort, to work out form other peoples experiences what will and won't work long term, and save the horses bad experiences.
 
No, I don't think it should save time and effort, I think if someone is interested they should look at everything available. Yes, I agree, a forum can help form opinions but it should not MAKE them. You need to still work things out for yourself because each individual connection/partnership is totally different.
 
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