Buck. The real horse whisperer. BBC4.

tallyho! said:
LOL... sorry shouldn't laugh.

I can just imagine one of us HHOers, going up to him and attaching lunge-lines to his face so he can learn respect and manners :D:D:D

Do we start a collection for a funeral now, or later?

Yes, can imagine a badly handled youngster accepting it but that deranged colt is not equal to a badly handled youngster... he was a monster that was a human creation and I don't even think castration would have solved his many problems. Poor soul.

I'm not that experienced and if I were to meet him face to face I'd have pooped my pants!!! :D:D:D
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LOL, tbh I don't think that Buck looked that confident either especially when he was trying to get it to load. I think his aide was lucky - when the colt attacked him he was distracted by (I think) his owner shouting him all I can say is thank God he heard her. I do believe the colt is beyond redemption and no amount of re-starting will help. I'd love to be proved wrong but it's not worth someone getting killed by trying.
 
teabiscuit said:
Fellewell I'm interested to know if you think roughing him up, for want of a better expression, would have worked with this horse?Genuine question.
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You like that word 'rough' don't you? You've used it twice now.

That is not what I meant and yours is not a genuine question.
 
Beautiful colt, I don't think any amount of retraining would have completely resolved the issue. I've known a couple of similar horses too which have been spoilt and given no boundaries but were given the right handling etc ok 99% of the time but I truly believe that the best thing was for this colt to be pts as I don't believe that gelding him would have had a significant enough affect on his aggressive behaviour and his owner was never even with all the training in the world going to treat the colt like a horse and be consistent.
Does anyone actually know if she did have him pts?
 
Fellewell said:
I'll lay money there were plenty of things he could have done with that colt (some of which would not meet with HHO's approval) I don't suppose his head lad would have been tiptoeing through the tulips either if the cameras hadn't been on.
But faced with an excuse-laden snivelling owner what was the point? She had neither the wherewithal nor inclination to build on anything he did.
When she was 'pleading' with the colt to load, well, the look on his face said it all.
I thought all cowboys carried a gun.
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Indeed. I thought Buck was remarkably patient and restrained with the idiot woman.

Buck was on a hide into nothing from the start with the colt - and I'll bet, if asked privately, he would agree and perhaps even admit that he should have had a quiet word with the owner first and then made a decision about what to do, rather than just crack on. The owner either withheld vital information or lied, depending on your perspective - and that alone put all those handling the horse in unnecessary danger. Of course we didn't see everything - of course Buck spent far longer than the three or four minutes assessing/backing the horse we saw in the film, and I do understand why he felt that the best thing to do with the horse was to give it a job to do (i.e., be under saddle) because it was too dangerous to handle much from the ground.

The thing that has really stayed with me, however, is that this woman apparently has another 17 stallions at home!!!! Frankly, she shouldn't be allowed to keep an entire male hamster :mad:

P
 
Extraordinary situation. Horrible outcome for the horse. I wonder if it was used as an opportunity to show what mismanagement can produce. If that's the case then good for Buck.
 
I doubt that Buck would have had any interest in doing more/rougher or whatever you want to call it. He's been around horses all his life, seems like a pragmatic sort of bloke, I suspect he wouldn't waste the time on it when there are so many other, easier horses out there. What would be the point when you've got nothing to prove?
I don't even think it was a horrible outcome for the horse. That was one unhappy and confused animal, no place in the human world where he always felt he needed to defend himself all the time, and at home turned out with 17 other stallions! Shooting him would be a release surely? If she did get him shot of course.
 
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Awful situation but I feel the one that came worst off in all of this was the poor colt. And i dont mean that he may have been destroyed- i mean the life he had which resulted in him acting in such an aggressive way. I have never seen a horse so aggressive- especially one that hadnt been mistreated violently. He was so vicious when he attacked that more guy! Although i suppose i agree with what others have said- it may have been a little too much too soon for the sake of making a TV programme.

I watched that woman crying and I thought - you stupid woman- Im glad that someone is finally telling you straight up what an idiot youve been! (although i admit i dont know her home/life circumstances)

I just hope that the owner lady learns from this situation- although i fear she wont!
 
PolarSkye said:
Indeed. I thought Buck was remarkably patient and restrained with the idiot woman.

Buck was on a hide into nothing from the start with the colt - and I'll bet, if asked privately, he would agree and perhaps even admit that he should have had a quiet word with the owner first and then made a decision about what to do, rather than just crack on. The owner either withheld vital information or lied, depending on your perspective - and that alone put all those handling the horse in unnecessary danger. Of course we didn't see everything - of course Buck spent far longer than the three or four minutes assessing/backing the horse we saw in the film, and I do understand why he felt that the best thing to do with the horse was to give it a job to do (i.e., be under saddle) because it was too dangerous to handle much from the ground.

The thing that has really stayed with me, however, is that this woman apparently has another 17 stallions at home!!!! Frankly, she shouldn't be allowed to keep an entire male hamster :mad:

P
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Yes cameras must be a double-edged sword for a snapshot of time with a horse that needs months and months of remedial work.
What puzzles me is how she got him to three unless there was liberal use of a chemical cosh. This would certainly explain why the poor animal was in a constant state of arousal when faced with 'the real world'.
 
A long time ago I ran a clinic where someone drugged their horse to load it to get there. It wasn't entirely their fault because they had been advised badly by the "head office" of the organisation providing the instructor. Then the person brought forward the deadline when they wanted to leave. Meaning that the instructor was in a heck of a fix and ended up doing more with the horse in one session than he would have done normally - to try to help the owner and also because what were we supposed to do with them when everyone else went home? What we didn't know was that the owner intended loading the horse up AGAIN the next day - after a long journey home. So the following morning when presented with the trailer the horse hyperventilated and laid down on the ramp. Wrong decisions all round there, but from the best of intentions.

Edit to add - obviously the instructor got the blame for traumatising the horse.
 
AengusOg said:
The man who was ultimately injured seemed to be in a very vulnerable position much of the time, and at times seemed a little blase in his handling of the horse. He didn't seem to have much instinct for the situation.
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Yes, I cringed at the way he was messing about with him in the pen just before the attack. It was hard to judge the degree of facial tension in that scene at a distance (maybe some wrinkling of the nose), but I'm sure there were warning signs.
 
People can be messed up by life just as much as horses. I don't know anything about the woman or why this happened. I feel uncomfortable with the bashing. Maybe she deserves it. I don't know enough to decide.
I can't think of how a good outcome for the horse could be achieved.
 
I cringed at a few things that happened in the DVD. I wouldn't want my youngster turned free in a small confined space with a lot of other strange youngsters.
 
What everyone seems to forget is this type of colt starting is basically the type used for horses raised in big herds on hundreds to even thousands of acres of rough land. The strong survive. I don't start horses this way but I do take things away from people like Buck. He's been doing this clinics long before he was a household name and will continue to do so
 
Anyway,

He will continue doing clinics dealing with horses the best way he knows how. There is no school or levels to be a qualified this or that. You have some issues well lets see what we can work out.

There is no magic solution to some problems. That's the thing with horses. You keep learning and you keep evolving. When you think you've seen it all, in walks a horse who writes a whole new book, never mind a chapter.

Those of you who want neat tidy endings I'm afraid it's not possible sometimes. Like I said before maybe in the right hands for a year or two the horse could have been ok. But probably never going back to his owner. So crying it isn't fair to the horse, yeah you're probably right. But what would make you feel better. Anyone who has been critical of this incident hasn't offered up their armchair solutions and has never dealt with a horse like this. You may think you have the answers and no better but until you're in the ring with this horse how do you know?

Horses are amazing creatures and you can learn so much by going outside the box. We're so worried about doing things perfect and by the book. Some horses hate such situations. Yet day after day they get drilled for headset, perfect circles, perfect this, perfect that. Let go and try something different once in awhile. You may be surprised by the results.

Terri
 
Well I've read of horse fatalities during these clinics, not Buck clinics, I'm sure you're right Terri in what you say. I was impressed by it but still wouldn't want to risk it :) personal preference
 
I don't go zinging around on mine with others either. My whole thing is forward, happy, and confident. But also my arena is kind of in the middle of my fields so they learn they can't lose the plot when others get up to hijinx. Same with going in fields next to others. I don't believe in quiet and no distractions. If the lawn needs mowed or someone's working with power tools we just have to deal with it. Everday life for the environment as it is on this side of the pond. Being out on a range with other horses, checking stock (cattle and horses), dealing with an odd real life predator (oh yeah), that's what those horses do. So instead of thinking how it's done in merry ole England and slagging Americans off, think about how it actually is in real life. A horse that must learn to keep the pressure on the rope from the horn while the cowboy dismounts and does his work. If the rope goes slack, the cow gets loose. Different way of life people.

Terri
 
And are all the horses in these clinics reared and used in this way? There seemed to be a range of horses and people to me. Not that it matters. I admire what he does and wish I could ride as well as his little toe. I think he's the only trainer of this genre that I have time for. The loading clip was awesome.
 
No not all people there do this type of stuff, but it how is work is based. Lots of people back home even start big fancy expensive warmbloods in western saddles. They are comfy. I'm doing some bridless work with my ginger TB mare at the moment and I forget how much better my leg and seat become when I don't use my hands. (no I don't have horrible hands, just hard to describe). The mare starts working in a way that's really fun. And that in turn improves other things for me. So I think maybe ranch type starting or even a little of this type of work mixed in isn't going to be detrimental no matter what the ultimate goal happens to be.

Terri
 
Dressage is supposed to be about building the correct muscles through correct exercise, not endless circles, and the outline will follow. Not about grappling the head into where you think it should be. I think the stuff he does fits in with that. His horse was lovely and light off the aids (that feels like an understatement). I must watch the DVD again :)
 
Tinypony said:
Do you think that was an option for a trainer who is on the road 9 months of the year? And, ultimately, it was the owner's responsibility to make long-term provision for her horse, not Buck's.
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If I can't work with a particular horse in a clinic situation, I either make alternative arrangements with the owner to allow an appropriate appointment or I recommend another trainer.

Don't worry...I'm not having a go at Buck. I happen to think he should maybe have made an assessment of that horse and left it well alone. It seemed inevitable that someone would get hurt.
 
Tinypony said:
He's been around horses all his life, seems like a pragmatic sort of bloke, I suspect he wouldn't waste the time on it when there are so many other, easier horses out there. What would be the point when you've got nothing to prove?
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I doubt he thinks that way, but maybe you know more than most about Buck. I would be disappointed if that were his way of thinking, as that was not the impression I formed of him from the programme.

He may not have anything to prove, but I'd hope he would care enough about horses that he would not consider any of them as a waste of his time.

If I'd chosen 'easier' horses from the selection presented to me by my clients over the years, and declined opportunities to work with those considered too difficult or dangerous, I don't think I would have had a lot of work. I 'suspect' Buck tries to help them all.

Tinypony said:
That was one unhappy and confused animal, no place in the human world where he always felt he needed to defend himself all the time
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The horse was violently aggressive and exhibited extreme sexual behaviour in the presence of his owner, as well as a tendency to attack male humans without provocation...he wasn't defending himself.:rolleyes:
 
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I'm just watching it, iPlayer keeps hanging, but have just seen the colt. I think Buck was great when he spoke to the woman - he couldn't have been much more to the point while remaining calm. The only solution was for it to be shot, it had been made into a monster. The woman has probably got another stallion now, to replace it.
Tell me, or is it my deviant mind, do you think she taught it to be sexually interested in women!? Why would you have 18 stallions hanging out in the field!??
 
Just to reply to AegnusOg - sorry I don't think I was expressing myself well this am, because reading back I think we mostly agree and I wasn't clear in what I was saying. (Sometimes I have to take quite strong painkillers to get my day started).
I was trying to say that I kind of doubt that Buck is in the business of taking away dangerous horses for long-term work. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never heard of him doing that. I don't think he'd be someone you'd ask to take on a long-term behaviour re-hab project. Like I say, I could be wrong. I don't mean that he'd turn away a difficult horse so that he could work with an easier horse, but I do wonder how he'd react say if someone offered him that horse for free to "rescue".
I don't think he should have worked the horse at the clinic, like I said before, I think she should have been turned around and sent away. Pretty much every time a trainer I know has tried to help someone when they shouldn't have worked with a horse on a clinic it turns to s h i t. And they end up on the end of some bad criticism.
Behaviour - he was just a horse being a horse wasn't he? We don't know enough about the situation to say for sure exactly what was going on. Apparently he showed deviant sexual behaviour to his owner, yes he showed aggression, but I think it would be wrong to decide that none of his reactions arose from fear. You know - that "I'll get you before you get me" sort of thing? I just cringe when a horse is labelled as purely aggressive when there tends to be something more varied going on.
No Clodagh, I don't think she deliberately taught the horse to be sexually interested in women. Maybe you consider that we teach them something all the time we are with them, in which case you might say that she inadvertently taught him all of this.
 
I've been watching this thread with great interest. I thought the documentary was really inspiring, particularly the way that Buck's horses went for him. Perfectly calm, trusting, and beautifully balanced and light under saddle. Surely what we should all aspire to.
This man appears to want to make a difference, why else would he spend so much time on the road. Yes, he's getting paid, but the time and effort, (you could see he's taken some knocks by the way that he walked) that he puts in to try and make things better for the horse by educating the owners, is the mark of a true horseman. He also didn't try to market anything, unlike MR and PP.
As to the colt, I have been around stallions of all sorts since I was 13. I have my own stallion with exceptional manners, and have worked for a lot of years with TB colts. I have NEVER seen a colt making the noises that this one did, not even in breeding stallions at stud. I would say there were several factors going on here, being brought up as an orphan by a very misguided person, being only one of them.
If anybody has read Horse Heaven by Jane Smiley, the colt Epic Steam in that book was very similar to this horse, and was also described as a monster. Jane Smiley spent a lot of time at the race tracks, and I'm certain that this charactor was based on a real horse.
I had a 5 year old Hackney gelding that I bought several years ago. I was his last chance as he had been through 10 yards in a year due to his bad manners and aggressiveness. he would bite, strike and kick all at the same time. Going back through his history, he was by a possibly flawed stallion who was apparently put down young due to his temperament. My little horse had been kept either with his mother or by himself for 4 years as a colt. He was a "fight" reflex type, so his owner went into the small stable that he lived in, and hit him over the head with a plastic bottle filled with stones. This, she reasoned, didn't hurt him, but made him respect her. It took me three months to see him with his ears pricked, they were always flat to his head. I got bitten badly twice by him, when he couldn't bear me in his space. He had several attempts at attacking my stallion over the door of his stable, before my stallion got into the field with him, and kicked the s**t out of him. Although I brought him round, and he was excellent when doing a job, I had to sell him in the end, as my stallion couldn't tolerate him and twice did his best to kill him. I think this little horse was mentally unstable in some respects. He did however go to a carefully selected home, where he has done very well, and is "managed". However, it would possibly have been the best thing to have put him down. Sorry for the waffle, but I just think that some horses are genetically flawed, and that PTS is the only option.
 
Equilibrium. inspiring posts and totaly agree with what you wrote. my mare got me thinking iutside the box when i bought her. critised at time but now a sweeter kinder mare you wouldnt find. far cry frim dangerous unrideable horse she was :)
 
That's an interesting story Cundlegreen, your poor horse.
I was pondering over the things that can happen before a trainer sees a horse, that are really awful but maybe the owner doesn't attach the same importance? On one of my clinics the trainer worked with a beautiful young colt that was showing "aggression". He'd got into that situation "I don't want to do this. I'm only here for 3 days. But I want to make you and him safer and happier"... Sitting around drinking tea at one point when the owner told us some things she hadn't mentioned -
When he arrived as a baby and was afraid to come out of his trailer they attached his rope to a quad and hauled him out.
From the age of I think about 6 months he'd never been turned out with another equine.
They used to get big and noisy at the door or his stable to make him go and stand by his manger before they went in.
On one occasion he lunged at her as she went into the stable and bit her (I wonder why?). She went out of the stable, got his headcollar, went back, put it on and threw him to the ground as a punishment and to show him who was boss.
All of this was related as if it was perfectly normal and acceptable. A stunned silence fell. The trainer took her away and had a quiet word.
What I'm saying is that we seem to know a fair bit about the colt on Buck's clinic, but we'll never know it all. :-)

So - to think about more positive stuff - I really loved his ridden work, so stress-free and beautiful. I would love to be able to ride like that.
 
teabiscuit said:
People can be messed up by life just as much as horses. I don't know anything about the woman or why this happened. I feel uncomfortable with the bashing. Maybe she deserves it. I don't know enough to decide.
I can't think of how a good outcome for the horse could be achieved.
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I not so sure the horse was beyond help in principle, but it's hard to envisage a happy ending involving his owner. It would have taken the sustained involvement of someone knowledgeable and confident. Clearly no quick fixes were possible.
 
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