buckskin/dun confusion?!

[whisp&willow]

hi there everyone- i've just been reading a few threads relating to colouring... and im a bit confused...

i always considered and refered to whisper as dun, and thats whats on her passport... although now i wonder if she's actually a buckskin?? to be dun do horses need to have dorsal stripe, zebra markings etc?

i understand that there is a genetic difference, so that would be the way to find out, but it was just a thought that entered my head!

this is her- as you can see she is dun.. but has no dorsal stripe or zebra markings. (she was in foal when this pic was taken... hence the belly!)

vicki. x

 

[jaquelin]

I have a buckskin, but in the UK he is always referred to as a dun. There are people on the forum who can explain the technicalities.
Does yours have any white on her? It looks to me like she has one white sock; any blaze on face? If so she is a buckskin.

Duns have black points and generally a dorsal stripe. I think a true dun is slightly duller in colour than a buckskin.

Either way, they will call her a dun here and if you say she is a buckskin you will get blank looks!

 

[Wagtail]

She is a buckskin. We in the UK mistakingly refer to them as dun. Duns always have a dorsal stripe, and yes, they are gentetically quite different.

 

[appylass]

Agree with Wagtail, she is most definitely buckskin, and very lovely too The is actually very little true dun in the UK. It is only present in a small number of breeds, highlands and shetlands are the only native breeds to have dun. There is also dun in Quarter horses, criollos and a few others I can't think of! The ponies most often called dun here are welsh and connemara - dun doesn't exist in either breed They are buckskins. Duns can and do have white on them, not so much in highlands (they are bred to avoid white markings), but shetlands do. Dun is a completely different gene to buckskin.

 

[tinap]

I had what I always called a chocolate dun, darker than the op picture, with a dorsal stripe but 2 white socks & a star. Was a section A cross (don't know what with though! - can't post pic on phone!!) xx

 

[Bertthefrog]

Surely this whole buckskin thing is an American term which has been taken on over here?

As a youngster - there was no mention of buckskin - they were dun's. As was a spotted horse an appaloosa - where as now you are shot down in flames if you refer to anything under 14.2hh as an appaloosa, as it is now a breed, not a colour. This again, as far as I can tell, is from American origin.

I don't doubt that these tems are correct, and am slowly getting my head around them all!

 

[Kaylum]

Not sure about the colour but have to agree over the last few years different colourings have been made up to suit breed societies.

 

[hobo]

when I bought my pony in 1978 she was identicle to your mare and was advertised as a golden dun. Since finding HHO I have often wondered what colour she would have been today LOL.

 

[appylass]

Surely this whole buckskin thing is an American term which has been taken on over here?

As a youngster - there was no mention of buckskin - they were dun's. As was a spotted horse an appaloosa - where as now you are shot down in flames if you refer to anything under 14.2hh as an appaloosa, as it is now a breed, not a colour. This again, as far as I can tell, is from American origin.

I don't doubt that these tems are correct, and am slowly getting my head around them all!

Bertthefrog (great name ) I think you are right to a degree in that the Americans acknowledged the difference in buckskin and dun before it was accepted over here. When I was a kid as you say there were only duns, apparently. I think it's good that we have learned more about genetics and colour, I find it so interesting. I have a dun, he looks nothing like the buckskin in the field, completely different. The buckskin colouring is a result of the cream gene, on a bay you get buckskin, on black you get smoky black and on a chestnut you get palomino. With duns, you get yellow dun on bay, chestnut dun on chestnut and black dun on black (There are multiple other names for the types of dun but I think that just confuses the issue). In breeding it is important to know which you have, I have heard people say 'my 'dun' had a palomino foal from a chestnut (or other solid colour) stallion' this just cannot happen.

There are lots of good sites which explain the difference better than I can, I will find some later for you if you like

 

[Kat]

Appaloosa has always been a breed not a colour. Nothing American about that, just a lot of ill informed brits assume anything spotty must be appaloosa!

 

[camilla4]

Appaloosa has always been a breed not a colour. Nothing American about that, just a lot of ill informed brits assume anything spotty must be appaloosa!

Exactly right Katt - Appaloosa has always been a breed, certainly as long as I've been aware (and I'm no spring chicken), but the confusion over dun and buckskin has had a great deal of clarification over recent years/decades, which has been interesting.

 

[Kaylum]

Appaloosa has always been a breed not a colour. Nothing American about that, just a lot of ill informed brits assume anything spotty must be appaloosa!

Yep knew it was a breed, its funny though how people have mixed them for their colour and they should be on the finer side as the breed standard down the lines has arab in there. Its said they may have originated from china as paintings of horses like them have been found dating back over 3,000 years.

 

[RobinHood]

A buckskin is a bay with one copy of the cream gene (2 copies would be a perlino) whereas dun is a different colour gene altogether.

A chestnut with one creme gene is a palomino, two copies is a cremello.

 

[Waterborn]

I have a Perlino mare (DNA tested to show 2 copies of the creme gene) and she will only breed a buckskin (with no dorsal stripe!), smokey black or palamino. The buckskin (last year's foal is shown below) and she is below that with this year's Smokey Black.

 

[FairyLights]

my dun is a buckskin IYSWIM

 

[Rose Folly]

And, re appaloosas - or not - don't forget Knabstrupps!

 

[whisp&willow]

thanks for all the replies! i had always thought whisper was dun, but i guess technicaly she would be a buckskin! no dorsal stripe etc.

my friend breeds highlands, and i learnt to ride on them... at one stage they were the only horses about here! (skye)

Waterborn: whisper (horse in original post) looked just like that when i got her as a two year old! she goes that lighter colour in the winter and much richer tone in the summer!

she is 1/2 arab, 1/4 welsh sec a and 1/4 connemara.

xx

 

[whisp&willow]

Agree with Wagtail, she is most definitely buckskin, and very lovely too The is actually very little true dun in the UK. It is only present in a small number of breeds, highlands and shetlands are the only native breeds to have dun. There is also dun in Quarter horses, criollos and a few others I can't think of! The ponies most often called dun here are welsh and connemara - dun doesn't exist in either breed They are buckskins. Duns can and do have white on them, not so much in highlands (they are bred to avoid white markings), but shetlands do. Dun is a completely different gene to buckskin.

thankyou! she is 1/4 welsh a, 1/4 conn, so that might explain it!

 

[Enfys]

Appaloosa has always been a breed not a colour. Nothing American about that, just a lot of ill informed brits assume anything spotty must be appaloosa!

Here, anything with spots is referred to as an appaloosa/appy just as a general term of description for simplicity, eg, "the appy in the paddock"
The same as a coloured horse/pony is called a paint even though Paint is a breed.

I don't think Brits are ill informed, just a little behind the times.

Look at coloured terms, for years in North America they have referred to Overos, Tobianos, Toveros blah, blah, blah, in the UK they were simply piebald, skewbald and odd coloured, never mind differentiating between patterning - red/white, blue/white, lemon/white as descriptions have only crept in recently.

A palomino was just a yellow horse, not a sooty, chocolate, or dunalino or even, maybe, a Champagne which aren't palominos at all. Smokey this, smokey that, silver this, silver the other, and then there are black chestnuts and the argument as to whether a sorrel is a chestnut or something else altogether, the list goes on. Fun

 

[Bertthefrog]

Appaloosa has always been a breed not a colour. Nothing American about that, just a lot of ill informed brits assume anything spotty must be appaloosa!

It may have been in America - but in all my books as a child (albeit in the 70's) any spotties were described as appaloosa - I blame the pony club!! (And I can pull out a few old ones as proof!) That said - I am sure they all mentioned the Appaloosa as a breed too!

I have to say - I have since been educated (being the proud owner of a British Spotted Pony)!!

 

[Bertthefrog]

Here, anything with spots is referred to as an appaloosa/appy just as a general term of description for simplicity, eg, "the appy in the paddock"
The same as a coloured horse/pony is called a paint even though Paint is a breed.

I don't think Brits are ill informed, just a little behind the times.

Look at coloured terms, for years in North America they have referred to Overos, Tobianos, Toveros blah, blah, blah, in the UK they were simply piebald, skewbald and odd coloured, never mind differentiating between patterning - red/white, blue/white, lemon/white as descriptions have only crept in recently.

A palomino was just a yellow horse, not a sooty, chocolate, or dunalino or even, maybe, a Champagne which aren't palominos at all. Smokey this, smokey that, silver this, silver the other, and then there are black chestnuts and the argument as to whether a sorrel is a chestnut or something else altogether, the list goes on. Fun

Agree - but I think awareness has also gone hand in hand with popularity. Coloureds are so popular now, the spotties increasingly so and now all the dilutes too.

And def haven't forgotten the knabs - I ride a spotty one of those too!

 

[trottingon]

I'm still confused.... if the word Appaloosa refers to a breed not a colour, how come "spotty" horses/ponies come in all shapes and sizes from miniature horses to 16.2s etc? I don't know of any other breeds which can be so varied?

Along the same lines, Miniature Horses can be a mix of Falabella and Miniature Shetland mix and still be registered in the Miniature Horse Societies as a Miniature Horse breed, but surely this means a spotty-coloured Falabella would be registered under three breed societies!!!

Can anyone put me straight?

 

[Spring Feather]

Appaloosa is a breed. Some Appaloosas are spotted, and there are many variations on the spotting patterns. Some Appaloosas are solid coloured. You can get spotted patterns in other breeds and cross breeds but that does not make them Appaloosas. The Appaloosa breed registry was established in the early 20th century so the breed has officially been around for some time. Britons might get the hang of these different breeds, coat patterns and correct colour terms by the 22nd century

 

[KVH]

Appaloosa has always been a breed not a colour. Nothing American about that, just a lot of ill informed brits assume anything spotty must be appaloosa!

Yes! Drives me mad!

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I Love duns / buckskin
here are mine aka Biscuit No1RIP Hunny

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then here is Diamond before she change grey

then biscuit No3

and i half own Moss

I love the changes of coat both Biscuit 3 and moss get when they cast their coat the long top layer gone they go this dark brown middle fluffy layer this below pic is moss in this stage

How many of you Dun/Buckskins horse's do this??

 

[Kat]

Bertthefrog, my 1970s horse books didn't refer to appaloosa as a colour. They either didn't have them on the colour pages at all only in the breed section along with other spotty breeds such knabstruppers and pony of the Americas or they called them spotted and possibly differentiated between leopard spot and snowflake spot.

Ps I'm not really old enough to have books from the 70s but I had lots of second hand books and library books!

 

[whisp&willow]

diamond light- yeah whisper does that too. her summer coat varies in tone- some years realy rich/bright some years a bit paler. she always gets some level of dappling in the summer too. she goes the same colour as your bunch in the winter and much darker in the summer- i'l look out photos later on today to show you what i mean!

p.s- lovely horses you have! (im a sucker for a dun/buckskin!)

xx

 

[jenki13]

Agree with Wagtail, she is most definitely buckskin, and very lovely too The is actually very little true dun in the UK. It is only present in a small number of breeds, highlands and shetlands are the only native breeds to have dun. There is also dun in Quarter horses, criollos and a few others I can't think of! The ponies most often called dun here are welsh and connemara - dun doesn't exist in either breed They are buckskins. Duns can and do have white on them, not so much in highlands (they are bred to avoid white markings), but shetlands do. Dun is a completely different gene to buckskin.

My cousin used to have a "dun" connemara... I'm sure she had a dorsal stripe & no white markings. I'll try to find a picture but as it wasn't my horse don't know whether it will be possible.

 

[GingerCat]

Some of you may find this an interesting website..it's very imformative

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/equinecolor.html

 

[Bertthefrog]

Bertthefrog, my 1970s horse books didn't refer to appaloosa as a colour. They either didn't have them on the colour pages at all only in the breed section along with other spotty breeds such knabstruppers and pony of the Americas or they called them spotted and possibly differentiated between leopard spot and snowflake spot.

Ps I'm not really old enough to have books from the 70s but I had lots of second hand books and library books!

Ahhh - perhaps that is how my confusion started then - not being represented in the colours section - and then seeing them in the breed bit. I should imagine this is where the confusion arose for others too.

Being such a fossil, my memory plays up a the best of times....