Bugger, it's gone......

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Alec Swan

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Would it have been so difficult to just remove the offending posts? The thread concerned had the makings of an interesting and informative debate.

Bloody women, and their handbags. :mad:

Alec.
 
Hi Alec,
My bad I'm afraid! I agree that there were elements of an interesting debate (contributed by others than the OPs) and the post with regards to the mare you nearly bought was very interesting indeed! It would be really interesting if you knew what she was doing now.
The OP was extremely libellous with regards to one of our stallions which why the post was removed. I am sorry but hope you understand that it's not just about the handbags :)
 
Sam,

I've PM'd TheFC, accepting that he couldn't stand by and do nothing, and asked if he could launder the thread, and return it, all nicely cleaned and pressed!! He may be more inclined, were there some support! ;)

Having myself, previously become a little peeved, I understand how it happens, and you're forgiven! :p

Alec.
 
Clearly there was some history there which was affecting the quality of the debate.

However the admissions on the link given were as close as we're ever likely to get to proof that horses which undergo operations for bone chips do go on to be graded, despite the efforts of stud books to prevent this and the demands for clean x-rays.

Alec's own experience was very enlightening and shouldn't be lost; and yes, I think we do have a situation where there is a danger of OCD being viewed as perfectly normal in a young horse simply because the situation is out of control in some bloodlines.

Now this, to me, is the very essence of irresponsible breeding; not the small-time breeder who just wants a foal from their ordinary mare, but the semi-professional and influential stud owner who DOES know better but brushes the whole issue under the carpet.
 
QR- jamesmead, I don't really think the statements on the link given are totally clear (as it is part of an ongoing hate campaign that started elsewhere).
To clarify, the horse in question had a small singular chip removed AFTER he was graded. It is possible the chip was apparent on his initial xrays, as his xrays were approved and deemed 'clean' because in the opinion of all the experts it was NOT the result of OCD.
I am sure the situation you have outlined goes on, but can assure you that in this instance that is most definitely not the case.
 
Thankyou for clarifying that, Samgirl.

I had gathered from the deleted link and from the comments made by his groom (yourself?) that she didn't know the cause of the chip; that the horse had not been injured in a way that might account for it and that the precautionary removal was done at an early age. I didn't realise that this was post-grading.

But this: ..." It is possible the chip was apparent on his initial xrays, as his xrays were approved and deemed 'clean' because in the opinion of all the experts it was NOT the result of OCD."...

So, could they be sure? This is an opinion; the opinion of another expert might be different, especially in the absence of obvious injury. Without wishing to dwell too much on this particular case, this highlights for me the issues raised by Stolensilver and Sywell in the BEF thread; openness and information versus the vets' professional but unexplained and inaccessible decision.

I'd much rather know the pros and cons, as now in the case of Sir Frederic; so thankyou for this input.
 
On the continent - there are an amazing number of youngsters who will have chips removed/joints cleaned up as yearlings when they start to bring them in - there will be very little evidence of this as a 2/3 year old etc. A lot of them will arrive here with potential owners non the wiser it will just become a potential problem possibly later on in life.
 
I understand the point you are trying to make and can see why there is scope for an interesting discussion here.
But from my POV it is quite unfair and unnecessary to be questioning the integrity of my horse and the vets that have inspected him (at least three vets on three separate occasions - same conclusion). However, because of some very sad jealous individuals his integrity IS called in to question and the only way I can see to combat this is with absolute transparency. I am prepared to make his xrays available to anyone with reservations (along with details of the previous vets). This information can be processed and discussed by a professional of the concerned breeders choice. So no one has to just take my word for it. I am unsure what else I can do??
It would of been far easier for me to state as fact this was the result of adolescent play. How on earth can i commit myself to that? The best I can say is that it is likely/possible/may have. Which is what i have said. I said the horse has not been injured (lame) whilst undersaddle (i.e. Since we have owned him).
If you have any suggestions as to how i could possibly be more clear and transparent I welcome any help at all with this :)
 
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TBH, I think now it behoves everyone to call into question any foreign graded stallion now that we know this problem is rife.
It is not a problem that honest smaller breeders in this country want at all but those that think the continental system is the bees knees just don't seem to be able to grasp this viewpoint at all.
 
SAMgirl said:
I am prepared to make his xrays available to anyone with reservations (along with details of the previous vets). This information can be processed and discussed by a professional of the concerned breeders choice. So no one has to just take my word for it.

If you have any suggestions as to how i could possibly be more clear and transparent I welcome any help at all with this :)
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Thankyou Samgirl; that's an excellent response.
 
QR. Maesfan, I do grasp that viewpoint. That is why I have made clear that anyone with any reservations regarding my horse can have all the information on him made available to them.
It is not about thinking the continental system is the bees knees, it isn't without flaws and i accept good horses have slipped through the net. However, no system is perfect and i really think the continental system has more to offer than another system that effectively looking at the horse on just one day.
I do hope you are able to understand my viewpoint though. Categorically stating as fact that a horse has a congenital condition when he does not is simply not on. Although this system might not be your personal preference I don't think you can take away the fact that it is still a good achievement for any horse to participate, be successful and gain approval. I think reviewing the horses at a later stage is useful, but perhaps assessing the quality of their progeny is more useful to a breeder?
 
SAMGirl, I can certainly understand your viewpoint too and I think you're being more than fair by offering up the x-rays for anyone interested in your boy to put their minds at rest; you can't do more.
 
There are a lot of us on here using foreign stallions and we never question their x rays. I wouldn't have a clue if the stallion I used had had bone chips or OCD.
 
oldywoldy said:
On the continent - there are an amazing number of youngsters who will have chips removed/joints cleaned up as yearlings when they start to bring them in - there will be very little evidence of this as a 2/3 year old etc. A lot of them will arrive here with potential owners non the wiser it will just become a potential problem possibly later on in life.
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Really?
By on the continent I read The Netherlands as we produce a huge amount of stock which is sold all over the world.
Actually most youngsters over here are left at the OPFOK (special livery for young horses) until they are almost 3. They are then brought in for training and sale.
Not saying that some indiscriminate breeders over here may do this but the majority would not consider spending the money to do so.
Would be interested to see what evidence you have to support this comment? OCD is a huge no no over here.
 
micramadam said:
Really?
By on the continent I read The Netherlands as we produce a huge amount of stock which is sold all over the world.
Actually most youngsters over here are left at the OPFOK (special livery for young horses) until they are almost 3. They are then brought in for training and sale.
Not saying that some indiscriminate breeders over here may do this but the majority would not consider spending the money to do so.
Would be interested to see what evidence you have to support this comment? OCD is a huge no no over here.
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Hugely generalised statements are a common theme on here! You just have to get used to them and not take them too seriously.

It's just a tool used by some people to make it look like the Continent isn't the Mecca of horse breeding that is light years ahead of Britain and Ireland even though, when it comes to showjumping and dressage breeding, we all know it is! Don't worry about sour grapes.
 
I hadn't read the removed thread, but on the subject of OCD on the Continent, my vets told me that there is a veterinary practice in Germany that is dedicated solely to OCD surgeries. Apparently, the problem is so widespread that this hospital does nothing but OCD surgery on a daily basis. Their success rate is such that a large percentage of the horses undergoing this procedure go on to a life of competition, primarily in dressage.
 
Maesfen said:
TBH, I think now it behoves everyone to call into question any foreign graded stallion now that we know this problem is rife.
It is not a problem that honest smaller breeders in this country want at all but those that think the continental system is the bees knees just don't seem to be able to grasp this viewpoint at all.
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Probably because their horses were whipping our arses when it came to show jumping and dressage!! I think you will find though that these same people are well aware that no system is perfect. And I dont believe anyone has said they are right & there is no other way. Where OCD is concerned even vets have different opinions on it, most from my understanding believe it is due to more then just bloodlines. Being overweight, prolonged inactivity/intense activity (being stabled for long hours while being prepared for sales), incorrect shoeing.

Below is basically what my vets had to say;

Causes and Risk Factors
Several causes of OCD are known, although the disease is generally considered to be multifactorial. As a result, the disease is not usually caused by any one factor, but rather a combination of several factors acting together. These known factors include:

Rapid growth and large body size: An unusually rapid phase of growth and/or growth to a large size can be associated with OCD formation.

Nutrition: Diets that are very high in energy or have an imbalance in trace minerals, low-copper diets in particular, can lead to OCD formation.

Genetics: Risk of OCD may also be partially inherited, although the mode of inheritance is not well defined and other factors are often required before an OCD fragment forms. Genetics can also be responsible for the horse’s response to the other factors presented here, as well as rate of body growth.

Hormonal imbalances: Imbalance in certain hormones during development, including insulin and thyroid hormones, can encourage OCD formation.

Trauma and exercise: Trauma to a joint, including routine exercise, is often involved in formation and loosening of the OCD flap or fragment.

Incidence and Prevalence
Since all these factors are involved in a complex series of interactions it is not possible to predict which horses will develop OCD, and is therefore difficult to prevent the formation of OCD in individual animals. Clinical prevalence of OCD is usually between 5 and 25% in a given horse population, but radiographic signs of abnormal development can be as high as 60% in certain groups (Wittwer et al. J Vet Med A Physiol Pathol Clin Med 2006).
 
Does "certain groups" refer to certain breeds, families or diciplines? 60% is a frighteningly high percentage........ I do know that OCD is becoing a problem in some native breeds in the UK.
 
Seems I missed an interesting discussion. Re the incidences of OCD and the causes it seems to me that its been more common since bigger or taller horses have been bred and it now seems that they are almost required to be 16.2 or more. I know some have failed at licensing as they are expected not to mature to be big enough so are we or the continentals losing what are possibly sounder horses by taking the smaller ones out of the program and keeping bigger and faster growing ones who do look likely to make the height and who are by the fact that they are faster growng among the higher OCD risk group in the program. By grading stallions at around 3year olds they are pushing them to mature early and with feeding them to make the height and look mature its not helping. Does anyone know how many TB's are operated on for bone chips as foals to 3 year olds? would be interesting to know how it compares as I know there are a fair few done but because the horses are in training and not going for grading its probably taken as normal problem and not discussed. I would like it to be compulsory for all operations for things like bone chips OCD or wind declared in the passport but its unlikely to be acted on asit would not be in the interests of the stallion owners oe breed societies to have records available for the public.
 
Magic,

what an interesting response from your Vets. The use of the word "Multifactorial", in my opinion, being crucial to our understanding. There are those youngsters who through genetic influence are virtually certain to be affected, and then there are those, who despite a lesser predisposition, and through careful management, don't, though equally, through poor management, could.

Back in 1994 I had a youngster with OCD, and he was operated on by Ian Wright, who at the time was with the AHT in Newmarket. He told me that the first case recorded was in 1946, the second in 1964 and that the incidence rate had doubled every year since then. The incidence rate by now must have slowed down, or it would be virtually every horse!! I wouldn't be surprised to discover, that within certain types or breeds, that OCD is latent, and that those who appear to stay clean, are those who've been allowed to grow and develop, at their own rates, so that in effect, virtually every horse has the ability, or potential, to develop the disease.

To return to the removed thread, and to try to replicate a post there, in the '60s I was involved with a family who bought and broke youngsters from Ireland. From memory, they were all 4-6 year olds. Apart from having been led, and some of them, their feet picked up, nothing had been done with them, NOTHING! The point is that as 4 yo's backing was an option, before they were turned away to develop.

Today we back as 3 yo's, we have ridden classes for 4yo's and these youngsters are being prepped for early development. We've brought everything forward a year, it seems to me, and we feed accordingly. We no longer seem to have ungainly and ribby 2 yo's, we have well developed and near finished 3 yo's, and I wonder if this may be the problem.

Within the Sport Horse industry, we seem to be following racing, but we seem to forget that those 2 yo TBs which have been prepared for an early start to their careers, are all so often dead by the time that they reach double figures.

I wonder if our impatience is in some way another contributing factor to our problems.

Alec.
 
Alec I do have to agree re youngsters being prepared too quickly - I would never bother showing any of mine as I know they would be expected to look far too mature (not to throw another bee into the nest but I have heard people's youngsters at the futurity even referred to as immature looking - well yearlings are meant to look immature?)...anyway, just to reassure that there are still ribby and gangly 2 year olds around, here is one (17hh and a real lanky teen!)

Horses11May2012048.jpg
 
Alec has made a very valid observation. Everyone is so much of a hurry to get their youngsters 'doing' things when they are not physically or mentally ready for it. What has happened to being allowed to grow up in the field with their mates - backed lightly at 3 and start to do things as a 4 year old and nothing serious until they are at least 5. Then they might last into their late teens. What we do to 18 months old racehorses when they start their training whether they are huge or small and compact or desperately weak and lanky etc., there are not many sensible racing people who give them the time they need and as a result a lot of them break. As Alec says some people seem to be following similar lines. I think I am right in saying that about 80% of 2 year olds do not go into training as a 3 year old!
 
Eothain said:
It's just a tool used by some people to make it look like the Continent isn't the Mecca of horse breeding that is light years ahead of Britain and Ireland even though, when it comes to showjumping and dressage breeding, we all know it is! Don't worry about sour grapes.
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Eothain, you know I love you but you don't half talk *******s sometimes! ;)
The Continent the Mecca of horse breeding? What were you saying about wild generalisation??? Continental horses ARE whipping our asses in SJ & dressage, but at what cost? How many broken down hugely talented 5 year olds for 1 that reaches 12 years old and the top? I should know, I was part of that great system! If you don't believe me, ask ShirleyNo2! Her stallion shopping trips to Holland resulting in failure on the basis that she likes "her steak with chips, not her stallions"!!!

Now, I don't pretend to know for sure that OCD is hereditary, so the breeding itself might not be the issue, but certainly the management and training have a huge part to play, and I couldn't say it any better than Alec did:

Alec Swan said:
The use of the word "Multifactorial", in my opinion, being crucial to our understanding. There are those youngsters who through genetic influence are virtually certain to be affected, and then there are those, who despite a lesser predisposition, and through careful management, don't, though equally, through poor management, could.
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Alec Swan said:
Today we back as 3 yo's, we have ridden classes for 4yo's and these youngsters are being prepped for early development. We've brought everything forward a year, it seems to me, and we feed accordingly. We no longer seem to have ungainly and ribby 2 yo's, we have well developed and near finished 3 yo's, and I wonder if this may be the problem.
Click to expand...


Alec Swan said:
I wonder if our impatience is in some way another contributing factor to our problems.
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If you have 5 minutes, please read this article, it's enlightening:

http://www.fourcornersequinerescue.org/perusalcorral/articles.html
 
oldywoldy said:
Alec has made a very valid observation. Everyone is so much of a hurry to get their youngsters 'doing' things when they are not physically or mentally ready for it.
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Very true and due in no small part by the way things are done on the continent because according to so many, we should be catching up with the continent with the way we do things, not least the way they have them doing things much earlier than ours. Is that really such a good thing to follow just because they do?
I'm sorry, this is one thing we should most definitely not be doing because all that is happening is our young horses are breaking down far too early and easily because of the stresses placed on their joints and systems when those very same joints and systems are too undeveloped; they're always being pushed to always be ahead of their time. The original British way has always been to give horses the time they need to mature naturally; as someone else said, out grazing with their mates is the best start we can give them, not being confined to barracks and schooled when they're not ready, either physically or mentally for it.

To some extent it isn't helped by the fact that most new owners and riders see themselves as dressage riders rather than the original all-rounders we used to be as dressage places the biggest stresses on young bones while at the same time expecting far more from those young bones than most other disciplines.

The old adage of 'you should never ask a boy to do a man's work' rings very true for young horses and one that is good to abide by if you value your young horses and want them to have a long uncompromized life (barring accidents of course)
 
Alec Swan said:
Magic,

Back in 1994 I had a youngster with OCD, and he was operated on by Ian Wright, who at the time was with the AHT in Newmarket. He told me that the first case recorded was in 1946, the second in 1964 and that the incidence rate had doubled every year since then. The incidence rate by now must have slowed down, or it would be virtually every horse!! I wouldn't be surprised to discover, that within certain types or breeds, that OCD is latent, and that those who appear to stay clean, are those who've been allowed to grow and develop, at their own rates, so that in effect, virtually every horse has the ability, or potential, to develop the disease.





I wonder if our impatience is in some way another contributing factor to our problems.

Alec.
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I would also think that the fact it is easier to diagnose, a bit like Kissing spine. There seems to be more incidents of it, but the fact is that the technology is there to find it.
 
Articles like that have been put up before re growth plates & may explain why so few 2yos in racing can trot straight without dishing or plaiting. It is also why I do not agree with putting 2yo fillies in foal but, I have seen 2 x 4yos who foaled at 3 & outwardly they look fine. It was why I was sad (along with being proud of his results) to see a horse I bred & sold at 3 doing Nov dressage in the Mar he was not 4 till the June. There is the pressure, especially when there are the young horse classes & where is money involved.
 
There are a hell of a lot of owners here who do not agree with the idea of starting a horse at 3 and in competiton by 4. :( 99% that I know prefer to leave them till they are almost 4 before backing them and bringing them on slowly.
Of course there is always the minority who want to squeeze every penny profit out of their animals that they can but isn't that the case in every country.
Stallions with OCD are not the norm in the KWPN stud book but unfortunately there are some and whilst some breeders will use them because of their bloodlines, others avoid them like the plague.
I also believe that feeding and management play a part in the development of OCD. There has been substantial research into feeding, before a mare is in foal, during the gestation period and after until the foal reaches 3 years of age to help prevent OCD from developing.
As I said previously I am not saying joints are not cleaned up by some unscrupulous people (and they are not all on the continent!) but the majority of breeders value their reputation for producing quality horses free from OCD.
 
magic104 said:
Articles like that have been put up before re growth plates & may explain why so few 2yos in racing can trot straight without dishing or plaiting. It is also why I do not agree with putting 2yo fillies in foal but, I have seen 2 x 4yos who foaled at 3 & outwardly they look fine. It was why I was sad (along with being proud of his results) to see a horse I bred & sold at 3 doing Nov dressage in the Mar he was not 4 till the June. There is the pressure, especially when there are the young horse classes & where is money involved.
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Absolutely!
 
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