Bum swinging

[LHIS]

Afternoon all,

My horse has recently started a new and potentially dangerous habit - when tied up he won't stand still. He will rotate his back end, like a turn on the forehand, around where he is tied up against the stable. He does it maybe 50% of the time, the rest of the time he will stand nicely and enjoy being groomed and tacked up.
I can tell when he's going to do it (you can see him shift his weight ready to swing round) and tell him firmly to stand, but 9 times out of 10 he does it anyway and I end up having to get out of the way.
Unfortunately he has an idea of his own strength, and despite being only 14.1hh he can be a bit of a bulldozer at times if he wants to be. He's always been like it so I can only assume has learnt the behaviour as a youngster. The bum swinging is a relatively new habit and my attempts to stop him aren't working. I'd just like him to stand still when tied up. He's rising 7 now and exhibiting some 'kevins' behaviours at the moment.
I'd appreciate some suggestions please, thank you!

 

[milliepops]

I may well get shot down in flames for this, but I absolutely won't stand for this kind of dominant behaviour. Get something pokey like the handle of a whip, and if he steps into your space (from your OP I'm assuming a gentle touch won't push him back out of it) prod him sharply to insist he goes back into his own space. If you do this swiftly and consistently, they usually learn not to keep doing it. You don't need to be cross with him, just absolutely clear what is his space and what is yours, and make it uncomfortable for him to wade into yours. Don't get out of his way or you are reinforcing his idea that he can push you around.

Does he invade your space at other times? Is he a bit rude to lead, perhaps? It's all part of the same problem.

 

[Fiona]

I totally agree with milliepops, hold a stick or even the end of a dandy brush, and when he swings round try a nice firm poke in his ribs..

Fiona

 

[LHIS]

I may well get shot down in flames for this, but I absolutely won't stand for this kind of dominant behaviour. Get something pokey like the handle of a whip, and if he steps into your space (from your OP I'm assuming a gentle touch won't push him back out of it) prod him sharply to insist he goes back into his own space. If you do this swiftly and consistently, they usually learn not to keep doing it. You don't need to be cross with him, just absolutely clear what is his space and what is yours, and make it uncomfortable for him to wade into yours. Don't get out of his way or you are reinforcing his idea that he can push you around.

Does he invade your space at other times? Is he a bit rude to lead, perhaps? It's all part of the same problem.

Thank you - I'll try a sharp prod with the handle of a hoof pick. He's actually fine to lead, he knows not to invade my space. He's quite an affectionate chap, but obviously this isn't affection it's disrespect as you say. He will take quite a lot, it takes a lot to upset him so I don't think this will cause him any harm, I'm probably too soft with him which is probably why he's doing this.

 

[D66]

My old horse used to try this, I dont think he was trying to crush me, but thats what happened. i held a hoof pick (the pointy bit) at his shoulder height as he swung across again and than leapt back as he got the hoof pick in his side. He didn't try again though sometimes you could see him think about it - so maybe he was trying to intimidate me.

 

[alibali]

As above I use something pointy but not sharp (my elbow often as its always to hand ). I don't actively push it towards the horse just really brace myself so that it doesn't move when impacted. That way its the horses own momentum that causes the discomfort which I find useful psychologically - it means it doesn't become a fight just the result of their own actions.

I'm 8 stone and have used this method on a bolshy Clydesdale who was fully aware of how to use his strength against you. After he pranged himself in the flank for the second time he gave it up as a bad job!

 

[beginner_rider]

I agree with what others have said, does he lift a leg or try to kick? Regardless, do be careful if youre going to poke him in the bum! Maybe start with something a bit longer than a hoof pick in case he takes offense! At nearly 7 I would be expecting decent manners from a horse, so annoying when they pick up bad habits - my 16 year olds new favourite trick is biting and the little sod just keeps going!

 

[fburton]

I wouldn't stand for it either, but I wouldn't call it dominant or being disrespectful - it's just 'bad manners', undesirable and dangerous behaviour that should and can be stopped, exactly the way that millipops suggested. The idea that horses do this specifically to intimidate you or prove something about their relationship to you is unhelpful, in my view.

 

[milliepops]

I wouldn't stand for it either, but I wouldn't call it dominant or being disrespectful - it's just 'bad manners', undesirable and dangerous behaviour that should and can be stopped, exactly the way that millipops suggested. The idea that horses do this specifically to intimidate you or prove something about their relationship to you is unhelpful, in my view.

it might not be thought out like that to begin with- it's often quite innocent 'thoughtless' behaviour in the beginning, but the end result of a horse constantly pushing boundaries (that we might not have set very effectively in the first place) can be dominant style behaviour - seen it on my yard in a short space of time, a pony being handled by novice people that has quickly learnt to push them about and nip. I do think that's similar to them establishing a pecking order in a herd.

 

[Sparemare]

He's moving your feet rather than you moving his.

 

[fburton]

He's moving your feet rather than you moving his.

This sounds like what the Natural Horsemanship folks talk about.

Okay, so f we assume that it really is about dominance (which I personally don't believe), how is the remedy - i.e. how we deal with the behaviour - different from if it's just unwanted behaviour that the horse hasn't yet learned not to do?

As I said, I think how you advised dealing with the behaviour in your first post hit the nail on the head. It is just the explanation for why it arose that I am questioning.

 

[milliepops]

This sounds like what the Natural Horsemanship folks talk about.

Okay, so f we assume that it really is about dominance (which I personally don't believe), how is the remedy - i.e. how we deal with the behaviour - different from if it's just unwanted behaviour that the horse hasn't yet learned not to do?

As I said, I think how you advised dealing with the behaviour in your first post hit the nail on the head. It is just the explanation for why it arose that I am questioning.

I don't think the remedy is any different tbh. And it's impossible to say whether it is dominance or not without seeing the horse in question, some are just big lumbering lumps that don't know how big they are and it hasn't been made important enough for them to be aware of where their handler is

Others, I think, do clearly have some intent (ETA and I would consider the current example at my yard as one of these) - I think you need to see the horse in action to judge which it is. Other body language is probably the best indicator, ears/eyes/tail/posture etc are all giveaways as to whether it's innocent bumbling or motivated by a dominant streak.

But for speed of response, I don't think it's a negative to consider that there may be an element of dominance under the surface or the potential for one to develop provided the handler doesn't then take the decision to be aggressive or OTT in their response, when, as someone else mentioned you can be quite passive in your resistance provided the timing is perfect.

 

[LHIS]

I agree with what others have said, does he lift a leg or try to kick? Regardless, do be careful if youre going to poke him in the bum! Maybe start with something a bit longer than a hoof pick in case he takes offense! At nearly 7 I would be expecting decent manners from a horse, so annoying when they pick up bad habits - my 16 year olds new favourite trick is biting and the little sod just keeps going!

He doesn't raise a leg or threaten to kick, I don't think it's an aggressive move on his part, just bad manners/testing me/he doesn't know better and I haven't told him to do otherwise (that has registered in his brain). He's a clever boy and learns quickly, he's pb Welsh and his brain can be both an advantage and a disadvantage!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I find that a poke into the hollow just behind the ribs, in front of the hips, with either a thumb or an elbow works well for this kind of squashing. Alternatively, if you can read his body language and react quickly, from the side that he is threatening to move to, before he has shifted his weight, just put your hand on his quarters, at the side, and say 'over' firmly, to move him in the opposite direction to that which he intended.

 

[milliepops]

He's a clever boy and learns quickly, he's pb Welsh and his brain can be both an advantage and a disadvantage!

ahh, the fabulous Welsh 'brain'. Funny how they have a reputation, isn't it?! Mine was a bit bolshy about personal space to start with but is pretty good at remembering her manners these days. I'm now safe to invite her for a cuddle without her forgetting how to be polite :lol: . Be consistent and be quick to react, and you'll have it sorted in no time

 

[LHIS]

Thank you all - I will give him a sharp prod when he does this next (almost certainly tomorrow!) and I'll see what he does. Will report back!

 

[Tnavas]

Totally agree with millipops in general - HOWEVER my young horse would do this a he was actually in pain from his neck being out of alignment - he fidgeted all the time he was tied up, you would go to put the saddle on and he would disappear to one side - it was his way of telling me he was uncomfortable - so I suggest that as this is a recent new behaviour do all the usual health checks - teeth, saddle, maybe have him checked over by a chiro.

 

[LHIS]

Totally agree with millipops in general - HOWEVER my young horse would do this a he was actually in pain from his neck being out of alignment - he fidgeted all the time he was tied up, you would go to put the saddle on and he would disappear to one side - it was his way of telling me he was uncomfortable - so I suggest that as this is a recent new behaviour do all the usual health checks - teeth, saddle, maybe have him checked over by a chiro.

Thank you - he's had all of this recently and I have his back checked regularly by the chiropractor. I'm lucky in that my YO is also a saddle fitter of my particular type of saddle. He had his teeth done a few weeks ago and all good.

 

[chestnut cob]

I agree it's bad manners but it can escalate quite quickly once he realises you'll get out of his way. I'd definitely be giving him a sharp prod or even using something like the bristly end of the broom so it's more of an uncomfortable shock.

Hopefully he'll learn pretty quickly that he can't walk all over you!

 

[fburton]

I don't think the remedy is any different tbh. And it's impossible to say whether it is dominance or not without seeing the horse in question, some are just big lumbering lumps that don't know how big they are and it hasn't been made important enough for them to be aware of where their handler is

Others, I think, do clearly have some intent (ETA and I would consider the current example at my yard as one of these) - I think you need to see the horse in action to judge which it is. Other body language is probably the best indicator, ears/eyes/tail/posture etc are all giveaways as to whether it's innocent bumbling or motivated by a dominant streak.

But for speed of response, I don't think it's a negative to consider that there may be an element of dominance under the surface or the potential for one to develop provided the handler doesn't then take the decision to be aggressive or OTT in their response, when, as someone else mentioned you can be quite passive in your resistance provided the timing is perfect.

I agree with most of what you said, apart from the implied assumption that if the behaviour isn't "innocent bumbling" (great phrase - I like it!) it must be related to dominance. Please correct me if that's not what you meant! Assuming the bum swinging is intentional behaviour directed towards the handler, it could be aggressive - or not, e.g. if the horse wanted you to scratch his bum - though that kind of behaviour is more likely learned rather than offered out of the blue. Either way, it's unwanted. If it is aggressive, dominance is one explanation, but I would think it a less likely one unless the owner had inadvertently got into a competitive situation by e.g. chasing the horse off his feed. It could be the horse is afraid of something and is being pro-actively aggressive and swinging his bum to (as he sees it) protect himself, though you'd also expect some kind of kick threat too in that situation. As you say, you'd need to see the horse in action and look for clues in the body language.

That said LHIS's original description sounds very familiar - it's a behaviour I suspect we have all seen before at some point. I'd be interested to hear if the sharp poke (without getting cross or shouty) stopped the behaviour for OP.

 

[LHIS]

By way of an update, he did the bum swinging twice over this weekend. On Sunday he was good as gold and stood quietly, but on Saturday he was demonstrating this behaviour again.
Armed with the handle end of my hoofpick he did the usual and I let him move himself onto the end of the hoofpick handle just behind his ribs. He continued to move towards me and I had to shift out he way or I would have been squashed against the stable. He then did it again and I used the bristles of a hard brush, this time he slowed down but still continued to move into my space. He swished his tail both times, but it didn't stop him. One of the turns was him turning to watch some horses walk down the lane, but the other was just him. I watched his body language whilst he did it, there doesn't appear to be any aggressive indicators, ears look happy, tail quiet, he's not tense. I wondered if it was triggered by something I do that he doesn't like, but I couldn't identify anything. He definitely enjoys being groomed and he attention. He didn't try to raise a leg to me at all either, which he hasn't done in the past so I wouldn't expect him to.
More work needed. I will keep trying. As I said previously he takes quite a lot so I'm not sure what to try next as a step up, given these things didn't seem to bother him. Further ideas are welcome!

 

[fburton]

Thanks for the update, LHIS. From you description it sounds more and more to me like the behaviour is in the "innocent bumbling" category.

Were you silent when you tried to stop him swinging round? A growl, sharp "No!" or "Oi!" (without getting cross) at the same time as you prod him might be useful to get his attention, and would be a useful signal in future to use place of a physical counter.

The other thing you could do independently (if you haven't already done so) is teach him to yield to pressure - to move over or back when asked. He'll understand much better what you want him to do (and not do) after lessons in yielding.

 

[LHIS]

Thanks for the update, LHIS. From you description it sounds more and more to me like the behaviour is in the "innocent bumbling" category.

Were you silent when you tried to stop him swinging round? A growl, sharp "No!" or "Oi!" (without getting cross) at the same time as you prod him might be useful to get his attention, and would be a useful signal in future to use place of a physical counter.

The other thing you could do independently (if you haven't already done so) is teach him to yield to pressure - to move over or back when asked. He'll understand much better what you want him to do (and not do) after lessons in yielding.

I half agree with you, but the fact that he knows he's bigger and stronger, and he has had bulldozer moments in the past (as mentioned previously he had evidently learnt his own strength before he came to me), and he's not stupid makes me think he knows full well what he's doing, and though its not aggressive it's him saying to me 'i'm in charge'.

I have tried the odd 'no!' and 'oi!' and 'excuse me!' but I can't think that it's ever worked, once he's started the movement he nearly always see's it through. I have a dually headcollar for him, he understands yeilding to pressure, understands 'over', 'back' and I can move him to where I want him on the schooling ring. The bum swinging occurs when he's tied up on the normal ring (so not causing any pressure on the nose) so I can't use the schooling ring on him there. I have thought about holding him on the schooling ring and waiting for him to do it, and then using a sharp rap with the dually, but it seems too much like a punishment to me and I already know he will 'take' quite a lot so I'm not sure it will be of any benefit, plus I doubt he'd do it when I was holding him as he's only exhibited this behaviour when tied up to something. He will mess with the lead rope, tries to get the tied end in his mouth and lick it, can be fussy, but then at other times he stands quietly good as gold!

 

[fburton]

I half agree with you, but the fact that he knows he's bigger and stronger, and he has had bulldozer moments in the past (as mentioned previously he had evidently learnt his own strength before he came to me), and he's not stupid makes me think he knows full well what he's doing, and though its not aggressive it's him saying to me 'i'm in charge'.

Yes, clearly he knows that he can move and you will get out of the way without any consequences for him. One way or another you'll have to teach him that ain't gonna happen no more!

I have tried the odd 'no!' and 'oi!' and 'excuse me!' but I can't think that it's ever worked, once he's started the movement he nearly always see's it through.

It won't work on its own, unless it's so loud and/or unexpected you manage to give him a helluva fright. That wasn't what I had in mind. My suggestion is to pair the sound with an effective action, so that at some point he learns to respond to your voice alone without you having to get physical.

I have a dually headcollar for him, he understands yeilding to pressure, understands 'over', 'back' and I can move him to where I want him on the schooling ring.

Okay, but has he also learnt to yield to pressure at his hindquarters? Unfortunately, there isn't an equivalent of a dually for that end of a horse, but you can easily do this by niggling at the appropriate place with the end of a whip and stop niggling as soon as he moves. If he doesn't respond at all, you need to niggle harder - but just enough to get a response. The instant as he responds, release; timing is really important. Once he has learned to move his hindquarters laterally away from the whip, you can switch to using your fingers if you want. You don't need to drill this into him in one session; keep lessons short and repeat them from time to time.

The bum swinging occurs when he's tied up on the normal ring (so not causing any pressure on the nose) so I can't use the schooling ring on him there. I have thought about holding him on the schooling ring and waiting for him to do it, and then using a sharp rap with the dually, but it seems too much like a punishment to me and I already know he will 'take' quite a lot so I'm not sure it will be of any benefit, plus I doubt he'd do it when I was holding him as he's only exhibited this behaviour when tied up to something. He will mess with the lead rope, tries to get the tied end in his mouth and lick it, can be fussy, but then at other times he stands quietly good as gold!

That could work, but when punishing actions I think horses learn quicker the more directly related to their action the consequence is. So if swinging the bum leads to that bit of his body being uncomfortable so much the better. It does sound that the consequence needs to be quite severe in this case - which is why separate yielding lessons could be useful. They will make him pay more attention at the back end.

Not sure if any of this is helpful, or goes beyond what you already know and have tried. I wish you success anyway!

 

[LHIS]

Thank you, it is helpful, if just to reinforce what I need to do. I will work on reminding the yielding to pressure tonight, will report back!

 

[LHIS]

Last night I spent 20mins or so reminding my horse about his obedience of the 'over' command. As mentioned previously he's clever, he instantly knew what I wanted and within about a minute I was able to move him over with just my voice and holding my arm out asking him to move away from it. He did it with ease on both sides, both turning on the forehand and as a lateral movement in walk. I'll keep doing this and introduce moving him around when he's tied up too. I'll report back once I have more news, wish me luck!

 

[fburton]

Sounds like you're on the right track. Hope this fixes the bum swinging!