Business rates for Equestrian businesses to treble in April 2017

ycbm said:
I've no idea how they do arenas or indoor schools, but that's exactly what popsdosh has described for stables.

The OP, it seems to me, has options to charge her customers a sensible rate for the use of two stables, putt horses in the stables instead of stuff, or remove the stables being used as sheds.
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But it is not fair to charge on the facilities rather than per horse, if facilities are unused, they are not creating cost to the ratepayer. If you want an example of how unfair rating systems have historically altered images, the window tax 1696-1851 led to bricking up of windows [some of these remain to this day], the Roof Tax [lots of fine houses demolished in the 1950/60's or roofs just removed.
 
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Btw this issue is already filtering through to other private sport facilities .
One near here has closed pts swinning pool due the double whammy of fuel costs and rates .
 
ycbm said:
I've no idea how they do arenas or indoor schools, but that's exactly what popsdosh has described for stables.

The OP, it seems to me, has options to charge her customers a sensible rate for the use of two stables, putt horses in the stables instead of stuff, or remove the stables being used as sheds.
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They calculate indoor schools and arenas just like a shop or factory floor .
 
Bonkers2 said:
But it is not fair to charge on the facilities rather than per horse, if facilities are unused, they are not creating cost to the ratepayer. If you want an example of how unfair rating systems have historically altered images, the window tax 1696-1851 led to bricking up of windows [some of these remain to this day], the Roof Tax [lots of fine houses demolished in the 1950/60's] or roofs just removed to reduce overheads. And of course, the incredible Wallpaper Tax!
There is no benefit to anyone except the accountant: a person who only has a job due to money generated by businesses, large and small.
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It is entirely fair that rates are used on unused facilities. If you buy a 10 bedroom house you would not expect to only pay the same as a one bed because you live on your own.
Q How are rates on Golf courses assessed?
 
D66 said:
It is entirely fair that rates are used on unused facilities. If you buy a 10 bedroom house you would not expect to only pay the same as a one bed because you live on your own.
Q How are rates on Golf courses assessed?
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I don't know, is it relevant? Private Golf Clubs are a social facility, but in Scotland there are numerous public courses with no clubhouse as such, I would assume one pays a lot more "per hole" than the other.
I get a reduction in rates because I live on my own, thus reflecting my "usage". However the level of "rateable value" is heavily skewed, in my case I am well "up" the scale, yet I have a small one bed flat, it could not be much smaller.
The Rate Collector is the Local Authority who are charged with providing certain services, it is in their interest therefore to jam more people in to a small area: where I live there are now twice as many people living in a circle of 100 metres diameter around my flat than there were twenty years ago, yet the facilities have not been upgraded or improved or maintained.
 
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sorry popsdosh i was only responding to your post about sending me to live there.

but horses are agri animals in countries where they are organised enough to have national studs and land is used for horse breeding on a scale not seen in england, ie. french national studs, stands stallions all over france for breeders to use in their area, and all the continental studs are very present to supply semen and embryo transfer is normal on even smaller studs they have their own lab.


but exactly who is the person that decides to triple someones rates and actually put people out of business? do they realize the consequences of their actions? do they have any idea they are destroying peoples lives? and what exactly are they going to do with the money? it sounds like they are unaccountable or maybe they have no conception of how it would feel if it was done to them, or perhaps they are just plain thick.

all the services like farriers you say will have to pay more rates, may not have to, if they keep on putting up rates and folk can`t afford horses, they won`t be paying any rates they`ll be out of business, if horses were agri and rates not paid on stables it would expand the whole thing, everyone would have more diposable income, money in peoples pockets where it belongs.

they could make up the short fall, if it really exists, from areas where there is wastage at present

it seems to me the english government has never and will never give support to the horse industry, because they have not got the brains to see what a money maker it could have been for them, and lets forget heritage they would need a dictionary for that one
 
This probably hasnt come out well but this is the breakdown of valuation for an equestrian centre near me. You will see that all parts of the business are rated at their own values! This one has gone up from circa 60k however considerable facilities including boxes and another outdoor school have been put in since the last valuation. People need to be aware that all the time commercial rents go up so will rateable values as they are linked.

Parts of the property

Floor Description Area m²/unit Price per m²/unit Value
Ground Indoor loosebox 39.00 £350.00 £13,650
Ground Outdoor loosebox 30.00 £350.00 £10,500
Ground Outdoor loosebox 12.00 £350.00 £4,200
Sub total area per m²81 Property parts sub total rateable value£28,350
Additional details

Description Area m²/unit Price per m²/unit Value
Indoor arena, sand 3087.0 £6.00 £18,522
Outdoor arena 1750.0 £1.50 £2,625
Outdoor arena 3000.0 £1.50 £4,500
Canopy 134.67 £0.00 £0
Outdoor horse walker 2.0 £250.00 £500
Mess room 12.67 £25.00 £317
Office 50.42 £25.00 £1,261
Bar 170.24 £25.00 £4,256
Restaurant 212.99 £25.00 £5,325
Shop 25.96 £25.00 £649
Shop 50.5 £25.00 £1,263
Tack/store 72.28 £15.00 £1,084
Hay store 103.76 £15.00 £1,556
Tack room 17.7 £20.00 £354
Tack room 17.7 £20.00 £354
Tack room 17.7 £20.00 £354
Toilet block 101.99 £0.00 £0
Toilet block 56.52 £0.00 £0
Additional property details' total number of items8,884.1 Additional Property Details' sub total rateable value£42,920
Total value: £71,270
 
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The shop only pays £649??? ............. I paid £5000 for my shop. I did not even have a pavement outside the doorway! It had been removed to allow the road to be widened!!!!
Of course, by way of explanations, there is a RV, Rateable Value, and then there is the rate paid, so RV may be £1000, but the annual payment can be £500 if rated at 50 p in the pound, or £750 paid if rated at 75p in the pound. Apologies if this is out of date, but this was the reasoning I have been given by the Rating Authority when I challenged the valuation.
Thanks for that popsdosh: the whole rating business is dictated by "valuers" following guidelines, presumably designed to ensure a steady level of income annually, this income being a "pot" from which are paid the services provided, with the Taxpayer topping up as determined by HM Govt.
Inevitable this leads to a very inequitable system, unfortunately the people who make "big issue" decisions come from wealthy backgrounds, and have never started up or run a business from their own resources, even Bannatyne got help to start his Ice Cream van, fortunately he did not have to pay business rates, until such time as he had the where with all to pay them.
 
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tristar said:
sorry popsdosh i was only responding to your post about sending me to live there.

but horses are agri animals in countries where they are organised enough to have national studs and land is used for horse breeding on a scale not seen in england, ie. french national studs, stands stallions all over france for breeders to use in their area, and all the continental studs are very present to supply semen and embryo transfer is normal on even smaller studs they have their own lab.


but exactly who is the person that decides to triple someones rates and actually put people out of business? do they realize the consequences of their actions? do they have any idea they are destroying peoples lives? and what exactly are they going to do with the money? it sounds like they are unaccountable or maybe they have no conception of how it would feel if it was done to them, or perhaps they are just plain thick.

all the services like farriers you say will have to pay more rates, may not have to, if they keep on putting up rates and folk can`t afford horses, they won`t be paying any rates they`ll be out of business, if horses were agri and rates not paid on stables it would expand the whole thing, everyone would have more diposable income, money in peoples pockets where it belongs.

they could make up the short fall, if it really exists, from areas where there is wastage at present

it seems to me the english government has never and will never give support to the horse industry, because they have not got the brains to see what a money maker it could have been for them, and lets forget heritage they would need a dictionary for that one
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The problem is we do not know the full picture with the OPs yard and it is very easy to mistake whats happening there to a trend. I can find no evidence of it being a general thing . Like I said if the OPs yard has been undervalued historically surely to be fair to all other yard owners it should be brought into line. Legitimate yards struggle enough competing with the boxes for cash brigade as it is.
Just to clarify for you although horses are classed as agric in France they do indeed still have to pay local taxes similar to business rates.
 
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popsdosh said:
The problem is we do not know the full picture with the OPs yard and it is very easy to mistake whats happening there to a trend. I can find no evidence of it being a general thing .
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There is no doubt it is a general thing, see Racing Post yesterday.
and as for people paying cash ,,, this is a nonsense, I have customers who offer me cash, expecting a "discount" lol, I don't want to deal with people who are essentially dishonest, if they think they can swizzle the taxman, their mindset is to swizzle me too.
 
Bonkers2 said:
There is no doubt it is a general thing, see Racing Post yesterday.
and as for people paying cash ,,, this is a nonsense, I have customers who offer me cash, expecting a "discount" lol, I don't want to deal with people who are essentially dishonest, if they think they can swizzle the taxman, their mindset is to swizzle me too.
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No but you dont want to compete with the person with a few stables who does take cash and pays no business rates.

I dont think trebling of business rates is general by any stretch of the imagination . they may be going up but so have rents. How long will a yard in Newmarket stay on the market if you can find one? The rateable value of equestrian properties is on a national scheme so the same facilities in one yard will be valued the same as any other yard in the country it is code 236 which is national scheme for riding schools and livery yards.
 
Having checked out West Berks business rates data base , maybe OP has been a little economical with the situation as only one property fits the figures given and indeed they have been valued under the national framework.
 
Ok, if the OP - who is probably seriously worried about the future of her business at this point, regardless of how up/down/around her figures might be - is still reading at this point, I would strongly advise her to get in touch with The BHS. It does not matter whether or not she is an approved yard at this time. I would say the same to anyone reading who is the owner of a rateable yard.

The BHS is looking into business rates and currently in discussion with the government regarding business rates for equestrian businesses.

For those drawing parallels with high street or other businesses, figures I have been given in relation to this matter show that the average business will see their rates increase by 9%. For equestrian businesses, the average increase is 50%. The biggest increase reported so far is 300%.
 
:)
Bonkers2 said:
But it is not fair to charge on the facilities rather than per horse, if facilities are unused, they are not creating cost to the ratepayer. If you want an example of how unfair rating systems have historically altered images, the window tax 1696-1851 led to bricking up of windows [some of these remain to this day], the Roof Tax [lots of fine houses demolished in the 1950/60's or roofs just removed.
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How is it fair to charge me rates on three rooms I don't use, Bonkers? Of course it's fair. I chose to live here. OP chooses to run a business which has clearly been incorrectly treated in the past and is now being put right.


Popsdosh I'm very unsure about charging rates per square yard for an indoor school, but then again, why not? Riding indoors must rank very high on the ultra luxury list.
 
popsdosh said:
No but you dont want to compete with the person with a few stables who does take cash and pays no business rates.

I dont think trebling of business rates is general by any stretch of the imagination . they may be going up but so have rents. How long will a yard in Newmarket stay on the market if you can find one? The rateable value of equestrian properties is on a national scheme so the same facilities in one yard will be valued the same as any other yard in the country it is code 236 which is national scheme for riding schools and livery yards.
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There are quite a few yards in Newmarket that are empty or have a regular turnover of tenants who try to make a living but soon find out its not economic and some of them are tiny and cover less than 1/2 acre in total. Newmarket has vested interest in keeping the rates payable down, most of its income is based on racing one way or another but its still a fairly poor town.
Everyone wants things to be fair, but if you are going to rated highly on a facility that you can not generate income from people will have to get rid of it. The only way I can see round this is that everyone becomes a sports charity, like many schools and larger charities and get charitable relief on their rates and gets registered for VAT, then they can claim the that back.
 
honetpot said:
There are quite a few yards in Newmarket that are empty or have a regular turnover of tenants who try to make a living but soon find out its not economic and some of them are tiny and cover less than 1/2 acre in total. Newmarket has vested interest in keeping the rates payable down, most of its income is based on racing one way or another but its still a fairly poor town.
Everyone wants things to be fair, but if you are going to rated highly on a facility that you can not generate income from people will have to get rid of it. The only way I can see round this is that everyone becomes a sports charity, like many schools and larger charities and get charitable relief on their rates and gets registered for VAT, then they can claim the that back.
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However have to charge VAT on their liveries :-)
 
honetpot said:
There are quite a few yards in Newmarket that are empty or have a regular turnover of tenants who try to make a living but soon find out its not economic and some of them are tiny and cover less than 1/2 acre in total. Newmarket has vested interest in keeping the rates payable down, most of its income is based on racing one way or another but its still a fairly poor town.
Everyone wants things to be fair, but if you are going to rated highly on a facility that you can not generate income from people will have to get rid of it. The only way I can see round this is that everyone becomes a sports charity, like many schools and larger charities and get charitable relief on their rates and gets registered for VAT, then they can claim the that back.
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In other industries this situation is known as excess supply.
 
popsdosh said:
However have to charge VAT on their liveries :-)
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Yes but if they are fulfilling there charitable aims there would be a % on certain things they could claim back. It would out on a %. Certain charities rent out facilities to fund the charity which includes employees salaries. If you followed the Moorcroft thread if you look at the expenses and the facilities for that equine charity they are obviously using these rules.
 
honetpot said:
Yes but if they are fulfilling there charitable aims there would be a % on certain things they could claim back. It would out on a %. Certain charities rent out facilities to fund the charity which includes employees salaries. If you followed the Moorcroft thread if you look at the expenses and the facilities for that equine charity they are obviously using these rules.
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But there is no VAT on rent per se.! well there can be but if you dont charge VAT on rent you cannot reclaim input tax. Do you really expect HMRC to accept livery yards as charities.
 
ycbm said:
In other industries this situation is known as excess supply.
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I think also of people regret the loss of so many of our well established riding school, I do not think there is an excess supply of those.
If everyone who rents out a stable and a bit of grazing is going to have to pay full business rates on every facility used surely by the same token if you work from home and use one room of the house or office in the garden you should have business rates paid on the whole house.
You can claim expenses for tax purposes a % of facilities used, so why not the same for business rates? You have 5 stables for private use, tack room, hay store etc and 1 livery so your business rate is 1 sixth, but you can also claim taxable expenses on that stable and 1 6th of any facilities used.
 
popsdosh said:
But there is no VAT on rent per se.! well there can be but if you dont charge VAT on rent you cannot reclaim input tax. Do you really expect HMRC to accept livery yards as charities.
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No the liveries are being charged rent by the charity, which must be a valid one and the money goes to the charity that pays its employees.
A lot of fee paying schools are charities, they rent out sports facilities, the ground staff are paid by the charity. Even though most of the pupils pay fees they still have charitable status because some pupils are effectively free, so comply the charity status.
 
honetpot said:
No the liveries are being charged rent by the charity, which must be a valid one and the money goes to the charity that pays its employees.
A lot of fee paying schools are charities, they rent out sports facilities, the ground staff are paid by the charity. Even though most of the pupils pay fees they still have charitable status because some pupils are effectively free, so comply the charity status.
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You've hit one nail on its head, but remember that all parents pay tax, and each school child costs the taxpayer about £5K per school year, however the parents of fee paying schools are not able to claim tax back. Just saying. The whole system is a mess
 
honetpot said:
Somehow I do not think these parents will be worried about the tax. Registered Charity Number 1139086
http://www.etoncollege.com/
but to be fair the local playgroup could qualify if it was big enough.
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And to be even fairer, those parents are saving the taxpayer money. I personally think that the private provision of anything which would otherwise have to be provided by the state should be tax free. Education and health care being the top two.

I really struggling to see how reducing the cost of private education equates with reducing the cost of livery services for horse owners?
 
honetpot said:
I think also of people regret the loss of so many of our well established riding school, I do not think there is an excess supply of those.
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They are dying from health and safety and 'you've had an accident, oh let's sue' itis, aren't they? And possibly partly from people not being prepared to pay for a luxury and very expensive sport, so yes that would be excess supply. And that is fuelled by how ridiculously cheap it is to buy and keep your own horse ..... and back to the start of the circle!
 
ycbm said:
And to be even fairer, those parents are saving the taxpayer money. I personally think that the private provision of anything which would otherwise have to be provided by the state should be tax free. Education and health care being the top two.

I really struggling to see how reducing the cost of private education equates with reducing the cost of livery services for horse owners?
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Most private schools and colleges are registered as education charities, the same rules would apply to an equine/sports charity that also complied with its charitable aims but provided services for people owning equines.
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.u...teredCharityNumber=1139086&SubsidiaryNumber=1
As you can see it covers a wide range of aims including maintenance of buildings
They would get some relief on their business rates on buildings, tax advantages, and staff employed by the charity could also be used as long as money paid was paid to the charity.
 
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