Business rates for Equestrian businesses to treble in April 2017

Well now, if we are going there: an international Christian charity [for homeless and destitute] owns a house near me, it is empty, has been for years, they don't pay rates and they don't pay for maintenance. How do I know? I could not get paid for work done on their house, so I kicked up, when I threatened publicity, I got paid ONE hour later ........ I d waited three months through their procedures, and was advised to go to court, of course they were not legally responsible, morally? That's not something they wanted to know about, after all a nice £65K job in London carries a big responsibility. I no longer give the Salvation Army a tenner at Christmas.
Was it Jesus who tipped over the tables? The effect has not been long lasting.
 
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Sorry if I have missed it but how much does it work out at per 12x12 stable per year?
Per 20x40 manege?
Per 20 meter round pen?
Per container?
Per 6x6 tack room?
Do you pay for storage space etc?
Sorry if I am being dim
 
popsdosh said:
This probably hasnt come out well but this is the breakdown of valuation for an equestrian centre near me. You will see that all parts of the business are rated at their own values! This one has gone up from circa 60k however considerable facilities including boxes and another outdoor school have been put in since the last valuation. People need to be aware that all the time commercial rents go up so will rateable values as they are linked.

Parts of the property

Floor Description Area m²/unit Price per m²/unit Value
Ground Indoor loosebox 39.00 £350.00 £13,650
Ground Outdoor loosebox 30.00 £350.00 £10,500
Ground Outdoor loosebox 12.00 £350.00 £4,200
Sub total area per m²81 Property parts sub total rateable value£28,350
Additional details

Description Area m²/unit Price per m²/unit Value
Indoor arena, sand 3087.0 £6.00 £18,522
Outdoor arena 1750.0 £1.50 £2,625
Outdoor arena 3000.0 £1.50 £4,500
Canopy 134.67 £0.00 £0
Outdoor horse walker 2.0 £250.00 £500
Mess room 12.67 £25.00 £317
Office 50.42 £25.00 £1,261
Bar 170.24 £25.00 £4,256
Restaurant 212.99 £25.00 £5,325
Shop 25.96 £25.00 £649
Shop 50.5 £25.00 £1,263
Tack/store 72.28 £15.00 £1,084
Hay store 103.76 £15.00 £1,556
Tack room 17.7 £20.00 £354
Tack room 17.7 £20.00 £354
Tack room 17.7 £20.00 £354
Toilet block 101.99 £0.00 £0
Toilet block 56.52 £0.00 £0
Additional property details' total number of items8,884.1 Additional Property Details' sub total rateable value£42,920
Total value: £71,270
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does this help?
 
honetpot said:
Most private schools and colleges are registered as education charities, the same rules would apply to an equine/sports charity that also complied with its charitable aims but provided services for people owning equines.
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.u...teredCharityNumber=1139086&SubsidiaryNumber=1
As you can see it covers a wide range of aims including maintenance of buildings
They would get some relief on their business rates on buildings, tax advantages, and staff employed by the charity could also be used as long as money paid was paid to the charity.
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But RDA aside, what possible justification is there morally for a livery stables to be a charity?

Owning and boarding a horse is a luxury.
 
No for some reason I thought it was when on phone, that is the unit price per square meter, so
Floor Description Area m²/unit Price per m²/unit Value
Ground Indoor loosebox 39.00 £350.00 £13,650

39 square meters of loosebox at £350 per m², 39x350= £13650 ratable value.

I reckon a 12x12 is 13.3ish m² so that would be 3 boxes worth?

So £4550 per box?

But that doesn't seem like many boxes for the number of tack rooms on that yard! and work out as a lot per box so I think I am completely out!
 
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ester said:
No for some reason I thought it was when on phone, that is the unit price per square meter, so
Floor Description Area m²/unit Price per m²/unit Value
Ground Indoor loosebox 39.00 £350.00 £13,650

39 square meters of loosebox at £350 per m², 39x350= £13650 ratable value.

I reckon a 12x12 is 13.3ish m² so that would be 3 boxes worth?

So £4550 per box?

But that doesn't seem like many boxes for the number of tack rooms on that yard! and work out as a lot per box so I think I am completely out!
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That's what threw me, my current yard has approx 64 stables 12 x 12 minimum, 2x manages of 20 x 40, approx 60 tack rooms, approx 60 hay store areas that hold a minimum of 14 standard bales, a round pen, minimum 8 containers rented out, 2 open sided barns, an enclosed barn of approx 20 x 60, another barn attached to that, 2 double garages with a forge in, and various other storage areas and a huge enclosed barn rented out to a company.
Their business rates for next year are 20k
 
twiggy2 said:
That's what threw me, my current yard has approx 64 stables 12 x 12 minimum, 2x manages of 20 x 40, approx 60 tack rooms, approx 60 hay store areas that hold a minimum of 14 standard bales, a round pen, minimum 8 containers rented out, 2 open sided barns, an enclosed barn of approx 20 x 60, another barn attached to that, 2 double garages with a forge in, and various other storage areas and a huge enclosed barn rented out to a company.
Their business rates for next year are 20k
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The valuation figure quoted is not the business rates it is the value used to establish the figure it is then multiplied by just under 50p well 48.2 to be precise which gives you the actual rates to pay. Is the figure you quote what they are paying in which case their rateable valuation will be in excess of 40K or what what their projected valuation is in which case their bill will be about 9.7K
 
ester said:
No for some reason I thought it was when on phone, that is the unit price per square meter, so
Floor Description Area m²/unit Price per m²/unit Value
Ground Indoor loosebox 39.00 £350.00 £13,650

39 square meters of loosebox at £350 per m², 39x350= £13650 ratable value.

I reckon a 12x12 is 13.3ish m² so that would be 3 boxes worth?

So £4550 per box?

But that doesn't seem like many boxes for the number of tack rooms on that yard! and work out as a lot per box so I think I am completely out!
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Boxes are valued per box ! as there are nationally agreed levels other facilities are per M2 ie the schools, offices , barns etc
 
popsdosh said:
No but you dont want to compete with the person with a few stables who does take cash and pays no business rates.
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I don t know who these people are, the valuation officers are not complete idiots, nor are the Taxmen, when they catch up they demand payment "on the day" Why would anyone take a few pounds in cash to save 20% in Income Tax, it does not make sense, if they have stabling this will be known, and they will be rated accordingly.
Any sudden and unforseen changes are going to be problematic to many individual businesses which would charge more if it were equable. Higher charges meaning more profit allows for investment and improvements. There is little point in working only to pay business rates, wages, overheads.
 
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popsdosh said:
The valuation figure quoted is not the business rates it is the value used to establish the figure it is then multiplied by just under 50p well 48.2 to be precise which gives you the actual rates to pay. Is the figure you quote what they are paying in which case their rateable valuation will be in excess of 40K or what what their projected valuation is in which case their bill will be about 9.7K
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I looked again and what they will be paying is around the 10k mark
 
Bonkers2 said:
I don t know who these people are, the valuation officers are not complete idiots, nor are the Taxmen, when they catch up they demand payment "on the day" Why would anyone take a few pounds in cash to save 20% in Income Tax, it does not make sense, if they have stabling this will be known, and they will be rated accordingly.
Any sudden and unforseen changes are going to be problematic to many individual businesses which would charge more if it were equable. Higher charges meaning more profit allows for investment and improvements. There is little point in working only to pay business rates, wages, overheads.
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You are very naive if you dont think its happening ! Looking on the database I can see at least two yards missing from the valuation list locally one of 25 boxes guess their the lucky ones that have not been caught up with yet.
 
popsdosh said:
You are very naive if you dont think its happening ! Looking on the database I can see at least two yards missing from the valuation list locally one of 25 boxes guess their the lucky ones that have not been caught up with yet.
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I know every stable withing a ten mile radius, and they are all known to the valuation office, maybe one exception, but I am not sure cos I don't know the address. If the place near you has no pp and takes in cash for stabling, he must have difficulty sleeping soundly, or is incredibly stupid. He can be forced to pay debts, backdated and probably have to both demolish stabling and sell property. Lester Piggott was so mean he ended up in jail, though in the long run he ended up in Switzerland!
One advantage of running a business is that you balance costs v income, so he would not pay tax on all income
 
Bonkers2 said:
I know every stable withing a ten mile radius, and they are all known to the valuation office, maybe one exception, but I am not sure cos I don't know the address. If the place near you has no pp and takes in cash for stabling, he must have difficulty sleeping soundly, or is incredibly stupid. He can be forced to pay debts, backdated and probably have to both demolish stabling and sell property. Lester Piggott was so mean he ended up in jail, though in the long run he ended up in Switzerland!
One advantage of running a business is that you balance costs v income, so he would not pay tax on all income
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No Lester was just plain stupid. Not a good idea to pay your taxes with a cheque from an account the taxman didnt know about!
 
Bonkers2 said:
I don t know who these people are, the valuation officers are not complete idiots, nor are the Taxmen, when they catch up they demand payment "on the day" Why would anyone take a few pounds in cash to save 20% in Income Tax, it does not make sense, if they have stabling this will be known, and they will be rated accordingly.
Any sudden and unforseen changes are going to be problematic to many individual businesses which would charge more if it were equable. Higher charges meaning more profit allows for investment and improvements. There is little point in working only to pay business rates, wages, overheads.
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Higher prices do not mean investment in a buisness if you are handing the money straight over in a tax.
I really fear for the future of horses kept in livery .
Below the radar livery is common round here .
 
Goldenstar said:
Higher prices do not mean investment in a buisness if you are handing the money straight over in a tax.
I really fear for the future of horses kept in livery .
Below the radar livery is common round here .
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Its common everywhere a lot of small yards would never operate if it wasnt so.
 
popsdosh said:
You are very naive if you dont think its happening ! Looking on the database I can see at least two yards missing from the valuation list locally one of 25 boxes guess their the lucky ones that have not been caught up with yet.
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I've just checked yards near me and one is not on there & another one seems to be collated with farm buildings.
 
i have lived and generated business income, some through horses and property in several eurozone countries and always found it very favourable where property tax is concerned and horse are agri animals.
 
skint1 said:
I think this is just another nail in the coffin for a lot of ordinary people being able to afford to have a horse, I don't think it will create a level playing field in any way at all. I don't know what will happen to all the horses owned by ordinary people and all the professionals who provide services to them when we are all finally priced out of the market, but I am sure someone will figure that out when it happens.
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Well said. I know I'm lucky at the moment keeping my two on a DIY basis on a rented field with just mains water and some falling down wooden stables and sheds for storage on a pretty reasonable rent. That might sound strange to some people on here who want all the bells and whistles that come with horse ownership, but I certainly couldn't afford and don't need the facilities of the yards in my area that are charging £500 a month for DIY livery per horse now that both are retired. In fact I know of a few liveries who are jealous because they want a simpler 'lifestyle' for their horses but three yards have closed near me in the last year and places like mine are very hard to come by and as a result a lot of people are paying possibly more than they can afford (one friend nearly ended up bankrupt trying to keep her horse) just so they can keep their horse.

Yes, I know livery yards have to make money - that's the way the world works, but if people are being priced out then it's going to look very bleak indeed for our hobby in the next few years. OP - it might be worth you contacting a company that specialises in rates valuations, they might be able to help you. If as you say there are yards you know of paying a lot less, then something is wrong somewhere.
 
It looks like the valuation per M2 for a loose-box has gone up drastically from £175 to £350 and that's for everyone. It's quite a price hike, I can see where you figure out how much more rates you actually have to pay for that valuation though.
 
Alibear said:
It looks like the valuation per M2 for a loose-box has gone up drastically from £175 to £350 and that's for everyone. It's quite a price hike, I can see where you figure out how much more rates you actually have to pay for that valuation though.
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Thats per box not per M2 just to make that clear . What you have to pay is the total valuation x 48% so for every £ 100 you pay £48
 
Sorry to drag this one up on a sunshiney day but @popsdosh / others I am trying to guesstimate potential applicable rates for an equestrian property which is currently in private use... would be grateful for any guidance, PM if easier! Thanks in advance, before i tear ALL my hair out...
 
deskbound said:
Sorry to drag this one up on a sunshiney day but @popsdosh / others I am trying to guesstimate potential applicable rates for an equestrian property which is currently in private use... would be grateful for any guidance, PM if easier! Thanks in advance, before i tear ALL my hair out...
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You don't need to guesstimate, you can look it up. Or if the property isn't listed here https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/view-my-valuation/cca/search then look up something similar, it shows what is being charged per box / barn / arena etc.
 
be positive said:
Why should horse owners get their hobby subsidised, horses are not an agricultural animal, except for the few that are and will already be exempt from business rates/ vat, as the owner of a small yard it would be great to be able to claim back vat/ pay no rates/ reduced utility bills, etc but in reality why should my liveries be able to have their horses at a reduced cost when it is something they choose to spend their money on, do for fun, it has no link to food production and benefits no one other than themselves.

I do think Riding schools should be treated differently as they do offer a service to so many people and I know how many are crippled by business rates, a small RS near me closed when they were told the rates would be £35k a year, I don't think she was turning over much more than that running a tiny RS with only a few ponies plus some liveries but they rated her barn/ outdoor arena by the square foot and there was nothing she could do to cut back short of demolishing the barn, she closed down and sold up.
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Why do the other 27 EU countries treat horses as livestock and we as pets. If you can prove all your horses are bred for meat they would have to be treated as livestock. EU regs say ID only horses are for food and production.
 
sywell said:
Why do the other 27 EU countries treat horses as livestock and we as pets. If you can prove all your horses are bred for meat they would have to be treated as livestock. EU regs say ID only horses are for food and production.
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Most of our horses are pets, we have never had a real horsemeat trade in this country and very few that want to eat horsemeat, it would also mean far more restrictions on what we can do with them, drugs not given without very strict conditions, most would be signed out as they are now but checks would become more stringent.


I think we should have more abattoirs and have a value for the low end horses but I am not sure making them livestock will be beneficial in any way to the average horse owner just more red tape to contend with, in many parts of Europe eating horses is normal, they travel across borders, there are regulations but as we know they are often not upheld so I am not sure being livestock is in the best interests of the horse either.
 
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