Bute question:

R

RichardRider

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In a nut shell, I've had English Rider Mates who told me a packet of Bute every day would be good for my stiff horse(also inquiring nerve blocking, etc in other thread,) also using it, as I have for the past two years, before hacking out(double dosage,) for weekly 2 hacks. Don't ride him more than this.

French vet says it should only be used occasionally, 2packets morning and 2, the first day and then one morning and evening for 3-4 days following...and NO MORE.

Have also had one of you(in a pm so won't say who,) sent me an address for 100packets from India to help keep the cost down. Thank you very much but have yet to take advantage of this...

Is this a French Thing(or English) in our(I'm a Yank, but live here,) two different approaches and the French Vets not liking to use Bute(equipalazone is it's name here,) over 5 days?

Thanks, am on the run this morning...cheers...rr
 
I have known quite a few horses have bute daily, over a long period of time.

I have my own 'rules' as to this...

1. It is easier in this country, but the vet must know and agree (for legality as it is prescription only).
2. For something that you have investigated and can't be treated.
3. Not for competition (rules!).
4. For the benefit of the horse, as in to keep one ticking over, for the enjoyment and sanity of the horse, to add interest in their lives - not to keep on with an unreasonable workload.
5. With the understanding that it is akin to an end of life care, as in with the realisation that bute does not do the horse's organs any good and is detrimental in that way. So, the long term bute keeps the horse ticking over until there are complications, and then the horse is PTS.


I have seen poor horses buted up to compete, then when they finally go lame even with bute they are turned away, with no bute, to live a miserable life in the field. Bute long term has its place IMO. Keeps the horse comfortable. But, it does have consequences.


If I were a horse I would personally rather have bute long term than be in pain.
 
^^^ I was going to write a reply but Red-1 has put it much better than I would have :).

I have to say, from what our France residing HHOers have posted on other threads, that the standard of equine vet care over there seems pretty poor. It can't be easy for you keeping horses there.
 
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I would also have a similar approach to Red, I see no issue with giving a daily dose, no more than 2 for a big horse, to keep it comfortable, with a work load taking its condition into account so probably little or no galloping or jumping to my mind it is no worse that us taking prescribed meds to keep us going but we must remember the horse has no say in it so the rider needs to be aware and listen to it as best they can.
I think most vets in the uk would be happy to prescribe bute long term rather than see a horse in pain or pts when it is just a bit stiff at times and generally having a good life.
 
be positive said:
I would also have a similar approach to Red, I see no issue with giving a daily dose, no more than 2 for a big horse, to keep it comfortable, with a work load taking its condition into account so probably little or no galloping or jumping to my mind it is no worse that us taking prescribed meds to keep us going but we must remember the horse has no say in it so the rider needs to be aware and listen to it as best they can.
I think most vets in the uk would be happy to prescribe bute long term rather than see a horse in pain or pts when it is just a bit stiff at times and generally having a good life.
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This! My arthritic 21 yr old is on 2 bute a day, to keep him comfortable, and enable him to do a bit of quiet hacking. He's looking and feeling great at the moment - although quiet hacking doesn't seem to be on his wishlist - he took offwithme three times yesterday, and I had the devil of a job to pull him up (mostly because I was laughing so much!)
I'm just about to start him on Cartrophen, to see if I can phase out the bute, as I do have concerns about long term use. If it doesn't help, I'll keep him on the bute and keep my fingers crossed!
 
I can only think it is a french vet thing, certainly know plenty on long term bute.

My own has been on it for a couple of months now, at 25 I'd rather he was comfortable and shorter-lived, he is not currently ridden though looking better enough that he could go out for some pootles if it weren't for the large amounts of roadworks around us. He might come off it when the ground softens.

My mum's mare has an undiagnosed occasional slight lameness which seems to be ground/weather linked (opposite front to the one she did a suspensory in) so she gets some bute for a while when that flares up and it seems to settle again.
 
As long as the vet is happy to prescribe it. But the vets need to reassess the horse every six months to check that the horse is okay before they will continue to prescribe. Not sure if that is all vets or just my practice. Mines on one a day. Its only like us taking ibuprofen. As long as the horse is happy with its workload and you have followed protocol in terms of getting the horse assessed or rehabbed in agreement with the vets then the vets are usually happy to prescribe. It was at one time considerably cheaper on prescription and our vets price match any legit animal meds website in terms of price. On a low dose long term it doesnt seem to have any ill effects on most of the horses i know but i would be dubious in increasing a dose from one to two bute for mine in order to ride for long term use but thats just my personal look on things more from an ethical point then anything.
 
I keep my retired boy on it. He's a draft so can have up to 3 a day if needed. I'm moving to another yard next week and he finds travelling hard so will be loaded up for a few days either side.

Vet preference when either of mine have problems with their arthritis is 2 a day for 3 days then 1 for a week and taper off. They're more than happy for M to stay on it so long as his quality of life is ok.
 
Thank you all and most certainly(think everyone agrees,) Red! Really felt it was a "French Thing," but, at the same time, my vet clinic secretaries let me take as much Bute as I like usually, billing me end of month, no hassles, worries or otherwise... Just recently I ran into one of the vet's wives and she insisted on running back somewhere to get me a written prescription(not that this changed anything mind you,) but then stiffly(apposed to "sternly") recommending the dosage I mentioned above AND NOTHING MORE. That being said, I can stop by after dropping OH off for her train on Monday and the gals will, again, give me as much as I like without any prescription...

Now I am a happy camper(American thing, sorry,) you all have reallyperfectly explained two very viable options, daily Bute or injecting for coffin bone arthritis to continue a comple of hacks and some flatwork on a horse I really would hate to part with. That being said, I'm still going to look at another horse or two, as long as they're not 4 year olds, lol....Thank you all for your replies(just walked in.)

cheers richard
 
RR realistically and as a bit of an aside, injections are great but not without risk and I think for most people we use them when only one or two joints are involved and the rest is sort of doing ok enough. When they start to get more global stiffness/joint issues then a general anti inflammatory is helpful.

Can I also just mention that I previously have had really good results from supplementing with boswellia (frankincense), It doesn't by any means work as well as bute but others asked what I'd done to Frank without me telling them anything when I put him on it age 23.
 
hopscotch bandit said:
i would be dubious in increasing a dose from one to two bute for mine in order to ride for long term use but thats just my personal look on things more from an ethical point then anything.
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Dosage is related to weight really, so it's not an ethically questionable decision to give more than one to a larger horse. Mine is 17hh and 680kg - one bute isn't enough for a horse his size.
 
^^^ Yes. My boy is estimated at 750kg.

Pre farrier he had 2 in his tea and 1 in breakfast and towed me up the track bouncing along like a baby. One is usually sufficient for field comfort.
 
RichardRider said:
My Selle, Incarna is 1m78, a big Selle Francais in body and bone. Should be double dosing him all the time too then...rr
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Don't think of it as a double dose. Think of it as an appropriate dose for his size/weight! Therapeutic dosage is 1-2 sachets for a 450kg horse twice daily - so 2 sachets a day isn't much at all for a bigger horse.
When I decided to start Alf on a bit of bute (he's not lame, but he's stiff/creaky), my vet told me to stick him straight onto 2 a day, as 1 wasn't sufficient for a big horse.
 
Auslander said:
Don't think of it as a double dose. Think of it as an appropriate dose for his size/weight! Therapeutic dosage is 1-2 sachets for a 450kg horse twice daily - so 2 sachets a day isn't much at all for a bigger horse.
When I decided to start Alf on a bit of bute (he's not lame, but he's stiff/creaky), my vet told me to stick him straight onto 2 a day, as 1 wasn't sufficient for a big horse.
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That is so funny, the difference between my French Vet's Bute usuage and yours in England. Here, as i wrote earlier, the written dosage was 2morning2evening for the first day, then 1dose morning and night for 3-4 following, and they know how big Incarna is...Sometimes I wonder if we're talking about the same drug(but I've triple checked and we are.)
 
ester said:
oi, I said it first :p
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Must have missed that. Did you spell it the same way, lol...

Gave my guy one packet last night and two this morning a few hours before hacking out and he was in very good form today(which means I feel good too.) NOTHING is worse than finding your horse lame or ailing, and when he's good on an early morning ride that whole day is SUPER CHARGED....rr
 
It is postulated that danilon (suxibuzone) is better on the stomach but not all research backs this up.
I have to keep liver effects in mind as he has been previously compromised and in my head at least it is logical to use bute because it skips the initial processing step of danilon into bute. Whether that is true or not though ;)
 
yup it's coated in sugar so that tends to help though I've never known anything not eat bute, even old fusspot here!
 
RichardRider said:
Must have missed that. Did you spell it the same way, lol...

Gave my guy one packet last night and two this morning a few hours before hacking out and he was in very good form today(which means I feel good too.) NOTHING is worse than finding your horse lame or ailing, and when he's good on an early morning ride that whole day is SUPER CHARGED....rr
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Great feeling, isn't it! Alf tanked off with me several times a few days ago - I didn't have the heart to stop him!
 
ester said:
yup it's coated in sugar so that tends to help though I've never known anything not eat bute, even old fusspot here!
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I have had a few that will not touch bute even the tiniest amount was refused, the greedy NF I had ate bute but would not touch butagran, never had one refuse danilon so tend to ask for that as the first choice even though it is more expensive, although I often just syringe it in to make sure they get it.
 
I assumed there must be some, fingers crossed fussy carries on.

Aus frank barged through the gate for tea last night ;)
 
It’s definitely a French (or even German) thing... Anti inflammatories for 5 days only, whether it’s bute or meloxicam (metacam/inflacam), or even dex/hctz (3 days only).

However our “local” vet over the border in Switzerland has no issues with prescribing a box (100 doses) of danilon or bute at a time.
 
I've cut back Militaire's dosage as danilon + grass flush = very bouncy heavy horse. If he carries on like this he'll be going for his first ride in 2 years to try and take the edge off!
 
I'm in Australia and it seems to depend on the individual vet. I've known vets refuse to give more than a weeks worth of bute and say anything more than 1 sachet a day is too much. However on of the other liveries where I am just got 100 sachets for her arthritic horse, with instructions for 1 or 2 daily from her vet.
We're all hoping it makes her boy more comfortable for whatever time he has left.
Kx
 
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