Bute Vs Danilon Vs Herbal Supplement - Thoughts??

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nicky_jakey

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Hello,

I'm hoping to get some thoughts from people regarding which of the above may be the best all round pain relief from a veteran horse (hock) arthritis point of view.
Historically it was bute that was given as an anti inflammatory. Then along came Danilon, supposedly similar efficacy but better tolerability (less toxic on the liver?). Now we also have Herbal 'buteless' supplements often containing Devils Claw.
So, what are peoples thoughts on the above?
It looks like I need to give longer term pain relief to my boy - so looking at the longer term options.
Is there much difference from a liver perspective?
He was seen by the vet last week. From a cost perspective the Bute is cheaper. Or should I try the herbal supplements first?
He has been on glucosamine for years & Green Lipped Mussel too for the last 18 months. So he already has those supplements (plus micronized linseed too).
Hence, now needing to go down the daily pain killer route.
Many thanks!
 
My horse was given half a sachet of bute for his arthritis just to help with stiffness and not to 'mask pain' as I was accused of, as he is no longer in pain as he's had his hocks fused.

I gave it him for ages but then stopped giving it him and put him on buteless to quell some people who felt it was unethical to compete a horse on bute even though my vet had told me that I should just go out and compete him (was only unaff).

I know of a shire who is on quarter of a sachet a day of bute so it is effective.

Your horse would have to be on two or three sachets for many years to have any affect on its internal organs, I asked my vet this when I was concerned to be giving him half a sachet of bute long term. My vet said a horse would be dead of old age before bute took them away from you.

You will probably find that the buteless is less effective than bute but hey ho.

My horse is on glucosamine, the equine america version.
 
Many thanks applecart. Have to say that I'm leaning towards the bute. Just wanted to think through all the options & see what other thought.
I've used danilon recently, but was wondering if it's just 'good marketing' to get you spending more money... I work for a pharmaceutical company!
 
Its about £1 a day for bute, slightly more I believe for danilon, but if you get a prescription it works out 100 bute for £60
 
My old mare was on one sachet of Danilon/day for around 9 years. Nearly 2 years ago she developed a leaky hind gut and the vet suspects it was the Danilon that caused this. She was fine during the spring and summer months - the leaky hind gut appeared early December in both 2013 and 2014. She was on Danilon because she'd been diagnosed with arthritis in her neck. I recall that someone said that Danilon was no less damaging than Bute!? Very sadly, she was PTS in March this year - I have no idea whether it was connected to the Danilon, although I doubt it as, at the time, she showed no symptoms of leaky hind gut. I believe Devils Claw can be quite harsh on the gut. I guess you're damned if you do and damned if you don't....
 
Thank you all.
Yes, I'd heard rumours that danilon was actually no better than bute stomach / liver wise. And that the herbal supplements (Devils claw based) were also bad.
Hence, trying to canvas opinion as to what may be best!
I've just spoken to the vet again - we're going for one danilon twice daily for the next week. Then see if there's any improvement & go from there.....but I suspect we're looking at longer term measures now :(.
If anyone else has any thoughts I'll gladly receive them too!!
 
Some years ago when discussing bute -v- devils claw, my vet said he would prefer to give his horse bute because the product had been tested thoroughly with medical research and clinical trials whereas the research on the affects of devils claw had not been through the same rigorous testing. He also indicated that devils claw can slow the heart. However, as this conversation was had some years ago I'm not sure if it's still relevant - I suspect it is.
 
I have found alphabute (Global Herbs) to be as effective as bute. Then someone on here mentioned that the active ingredient is boswellia, so then I bought that in powdered form on ebay, which is about 1/4 of the price of alphabute. Might be worth a try?

T x
 
Another vote for Boswellia, it's amazing and no contraindication for the gut, actually the opposite :-)
My pony has arthritic changes in his hip from an injury and a serious intolerance to bute, so I have to use alternatives.
Danilon is just bute coated in sugar to make it palatable, it's no less damaging sadly as bute compromises the gut wall through the blood not contact! :-/
Make sure it's the Boswellia Serrata you get not Boswellia Carteri as it's just not as good!
Turmeric, black pepper & oil is definately worth go too. It works for my pony but his gut can't tolerate it sadly. He seems to tolerate Vetrofen Healthy which has extracts of Turmeric (combined with Boswellia and something else I can't recall! ) and that helps alot when he's stiff!
I've needed an awful lot less of the above since he's been on Vetroflex Senior, it's worked miracles on his movement and he's still out competing happily and soundly (BD)
 
Thank you milkmaid. Any idea where to buy boswelia?
My only concern with these supplements is are they definitely the genuine article? How do I know that I haven't received a bag of flour?!! Are there genuine sellers?
I've no idea what it should look / smell / taste like.
Any help appreciated!
 
Lol, Boswellia has a very distinctive smell!
Naturebute from Pegasus Health is the real deal. Once you've smelt it once you'll recognise it anywhere :-)
 
Thanks gunnerdog.
I've had cartrofen injections for my dog. I think it was one every 10 ish days & about 4 injections in total? It has definitely helped the dog.
In honesty I didn't realise that it was available for horses?
My vet hasn't suggested this. He has done steroid injections into both (as he said you can't just do one) hocks. So far it hasn't made a massive improvement. So we're on a weeks course of danilon to see if that helps.
Hence in starting to look at longer term pain relieving options.... I'm still crossing my fingers that we may not need them, but I want to make sure I've considered everything for when the time comes....
Thank you all, very helpful!
 
Ps just to add that we are no longer insured for 'any arthritic condition' due to his age & the previous hock arthritis claim (5 or 6 years ago).
So cost effective treatments are important!!
 
Cartrophen for my horse was one jab a week for four weeks; they are intra-muscular so I was able to do them myself, thus minimising cost.

As for having to inject BOTH hocks .....I've never heard that one before and have most certainly only injected one in the past! Maybe he's thinking of it being preventative in the sound hock????

Also, plain steroid jabs in my experience are a lot less effective unless you add HA. My view is if I'm going to inject I may as well go the full caboodle..

HTH
 
Thanks gunnerdog, very helpful.
I will ring my vet and ask him if he injected HA too. I have a feeling he did that previously, but I don't recall him having said he was injecting that this time. I was stood in the room (whilst my horse was sedated in the stocks). I know that he said steroid, antibiotic and bute - plus he was sedated. So I my mind that was what he'd had.
So, yes good point I'll ring the surgery and check re HA.
I don't particularly want to pay again, but it would be good to know as if it's less successful, then this could be why.
 
nicky_jakey said:
Thanks gunnerdog, very helpful.
I will ring my vet and ask him if he injected HA too. I have a feeling he did that previously, but I don't recall him having said he was injecting that this time. I was stood in the room (whilst my horse was sedated in the stocks). I know that he said steroid, antibiotic and bute - plus he was sedated. So I my mind that was what he'd had.
So, yes good point I'll ring the surgery and check re HA.
I don't particularly want to pay again, but it would be good to know as if it's less successful, then this could be why.
Click to expand...

Has your vet discussed fusion with ethanol. They have had some really sucessful outcomes with this. You might want to discuss it with him.

Here is a couple of useful links: http://www.horseandrideruk.com/article.php?id=2414
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16649921


I know of a few horses (including mine) who have had this treatment. Nerves to the hock joints are killed at once so the horse no longer feels pain although there is no loss of sensation to the outside of the hock, and fusion can take up to 18 months.

My horse is jumping and dressaging and very happy with this treatment that he was given about three years ago now.
 
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Bute is a very old NSAID, it is absorbed through the stomach and metabolised by the liver. Long term exposure are going to have detrimental effects to both organs.

Danilon is a pro-drug and absorbed in the hind gut, before it is metabolised by the liver into phenylbutasone. Again, long tem exposure is going to be detrimental to both organs.

harpagophytum (Devils claw) is also irritating to the stomach, and actually promotes the secretion of stomach acids
 
Casey76 said:
Bute is a very old NSAID, it is absorbed through the stomach and metabolised by the liver. Long term exposure are going to have detrimental effects to both organs.

Danilon is a pro-drug and absorbed in the hind gut, before it is metabolised by the liver into phenylbutasone. Again, long tem exposure is going to be detrimental to both organs.

harpagophytum (Devils claw) is also irritating to the stomach, and actually promotes the secretion of stomach acids
Click to expand...

Long term exposure on large amounts rather than long term exposure on a small amount?

I quote from a website:

BUTE” – PHENYLBUTAZONE

Phenylbutazone (a/k/a butazolidin) is primarily used to relieve musculoskeletal pain and inflammation in the horse. Bute comes in several forms including an injectable liquid for intravenous dosing only. It is most commonly found in oral forms: paste, tablets and powder. Used correctly, bute is a powerful and effective means of relieving pain and inflammation. Nevertheless, there are potential side effects.
•Bute is unsafe in all horses at high doses for long periods of time.
•Some horses are much more sensitive to bute than others and may show side effects to smaller amounts.
•Bute is considered more likely to cause ulcers, especially in the large colon, than Banamine® and other NSAIDS.
•Bute is processed, inactivated, and removed from circulation by the liver and kidneys. Young horses have not fully developed their ability to process this drug, and tend to accumulate toxic doses of it. The same concern applies to horses with underlying kidney or liver disease.
•Bute is highly effective for treatment of lameness. As a consequence, it can mask signs of mild or moderate lameness. A horse with a serious musculoskeletal injury may over-exert, and thus worsen the injury.
• Bute is somewhat less effective than Banamine® at controlling abdominal pain (colic) but can still be useful.

Non-veterinarians should not use the injectable form of this drug. It is for intravenous use only, and must never be given in the muscle. It is severely damaging to tissues if even a small amount escapes the vein during injection. Severe swelling develops and the tissue may even die and slough out, leaving a huge open wound that can take months to heal.

Bute at a low dose can be useful and quite safe for long-term maintenance of horses with chronic pain. There are now safer (although more expensive) alternatives for longer-term treatment
 
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Just spoken to the vet surgery. He had 'Adcortil' injected into both hocks, which is apparently just a steroid. So sadly, no HA this time.
They've suggested a 'top up' with danilon for a few days. They said that it's kinder to the system than the bute alternatives. Apparently there is bute and now also a cheaper version - I can't remember the name. Plus the danilon. These were the options I was offered. I've gone with the danilon - as was sold it as being 'kinder to the system'....
 
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