Buying a lorry with dangerous brakes

C

chloeeze

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Hi everyone,

I bought a horsebox very recently that I had looked over by a mechanic prior to sale. The mechanic looked at the lorry at the vendor's address so it was a basic check. He reckoned that it needed servicing due to very rusty filters even though the vendor insisted it was serviced in April this year. The mechanic also said the front brake pads would need replacing at some point but it was best to leave it until the Brake wear failure light sensors light up on the dash.

The lorry was purchased and driven straight to my mechanic's garage to be serviced, when he started working on the lorry and stripping down the wheels etc he discovered that the brake wear failure sensors were cut to all four wheels hiding the fact that the brakes were in a terrible, unsafe state. When he took both back wheels off and had a look at the discs one was so badly damaged/worn that there was no braking on that wheel whatsoever. So to cut a long story short I have had to spend in the region of 2k getting the lorry roadworthy. The mechanic said that the lorry would not have stopped under heavy braking and would definitely have not passed a test. Thank goodness I chose to have the lorry serviced straight away or me and my horses could have been involved in a serious accident.

The vendor refuses point blank to contribute to getting this lorry roadworthy and safe to drive, I am going to take legal advice next week but I was wondering if anyone had experienced a similar situation and taken legal action against someone who had sold them an unsafe/unfit for purpose horsebox?

Thank you for taking the time to read this I look forward to hearing other people's experiences,

CJ
 
I dont really have much advice but I would hope (if possible) that your mechanic had the foresight to take pictures of all four sensors having being cut as any extra evidence will always weigh in your favour when the previous vendor turns round with the classic 'prove it' its better to have more than just yours and your mechanics word against his.

Some people are nasty unscrupulous horrors who should be locked up how anyone can sell any vehicle like that is beyond me but particularly a horsebox which is going to cause damage to horses on board and likely more damage to other road users due to its size and weight in the event of an accident, he should be ashamed of himself! I would imagine you would have a case if you could prove he knowingly sold an unroadworthy dangerous vehicle. Good luck getting it sorted :).
 
If its a private sale you will have no comeback especially as you had it checked over best put down to experience.Buyer beware and all that.
I would be asking the mechanic why he did not spot this at the check as it is very easy to check wear on disc brakes however it does involve getting under the lorry to check the rear ones so he maybe could not be bothered.How did he not spot that the sensor wires were cut then.
It is not unusual to find the brake sensor wires not connected as they tend to corrode quite badly.
I am afraid under the circumstances I would blame your mechanic(do you trust your mechanic) more than the vendor and like I say if it was a private sale you will have no comeback as there is no protection under law .It is always safer to buy from a dealer.Are you sure your mechanic is not looking for work?
When was the last test and do you have the brake test printout.If the test was very recent take it up with Vosa .
 
What an awful situation. Is there evidence the box was serviced in the service book? I'd be contacting the garage that issued the last plating cert, unless previous owner did a huge mileage since it was last inspected then I bet there was an advisory notice about those brakes. Frightening just how callous some people can be, I hope you get somewhere with this.
 
Unlikely that you have a leg to stand on - buyer beware - you had a mechanic 'look' at it and then bought it. You have bought it as seen so the vendor has no responsiblity to contribute towards any repairs that may be needed. Sorry it has cost you so much but at least you know its safe now and weren't driving around in it with your horses in.
 
popsdosh said:
If its a private sale you will have no comeback especially as you had it checked over best put down to experience.Buyer beware and all that.
I would be asking the mechanic why he did not spot this at the check as it is very easy to check wear on disc brakes however it does involve getting under the lorry to check the rear ones so he maybe could not be bothered.How did he not spot that the sensor wires were cut then.
It is not unusual to find the brake sensor wires not connected as they tend to corrode quite badly.
I am afraid under the circumstances I would blame your mechanic(do you trust your mechanic) more than the vendor and like I say if it was a private sale you will have no comeback as there is no protection under law .It is always safer to buy from a dealer.Are you sure your mechanic is not looking for work?
When was the last test and do you have the brake test printout.If the test was very recent take it up with Vosa .
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Yes ditto if your mecanic had looked at the lorry propely he would have spotted the disks and pads were shot if the seller is geninely a private seller then it isnt easy to get redress but if he is a dealer mascrading as a private seller he is liable if its un safe!!! realy its up to your mecanic If you paid him to look it over and the other thing is there are a lot of non genuine parts avalable now so a set of discs and pads should be about £400 for a 7.5 ton and a bit more for a bigger lorry and Would say he should fit them free as a good will gesture... also I would question the £2k it sounds more than abit steep ,what lorry is it??
 
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Unless you can prove that the seller is a dealer, or that he knew that the brake sensors had been cut and that the brakes were unsafe, don't throw good money after bad, just cancel next week's visit to a lawyer and lick your wounds, sorry :(

Your mechanic has let you down rather badly I'm afraid. Even if the seller is a dealer, the fact that your mechanic approved the purchase would make it much more difficult for you to win this case because you bought the lorry "as seen" by a qualified mechanic.
 
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Hi,

Thanks for the replies, I did get a second opinion on whether the mechanic should have picked up the various issues with the brakes and until you start taking wheels off/stripping them down a lot of the problems cannot be picked up. For instance the damage on the disc on the rear wheel could only be seen when the wheel was taken off and other parts removed. The 2k does include servicing as well but it also includes new pads/discs on everything, new caliper, new master cylinder and time spent freeing off all the calipers as they were all seized on due to the master cylinder not working and the brake failure warning sensors being cut. I trust the mechanic as I've used him a lot and he has an excellent reputation for working on horse lorries.

I have got photos of everything including the cut brake failure sensors and kept all the damaged parts. I cannot understand why anyone would choose to have the brake wear sensors cut as it is a safety feature designed to warn you of the the brake pads getting low and who wouldnt want to be warned of that when you have such precious cargo as your horse onboard? The lorry is an Iveco 7.5t. He will not hand over the details of the guy who supposedly serviced it but I believe this guy can be traced. My next step is to also contact Vosa and check the outcome of its last testing.

Thanks for taking the time to reply,

CJ
 
You bought the lorry knowing you had to replace the brakes. You just had to replace the brakes earlier than you thought. I was always going to cost you £2k to do it, with that mechanic.

What are you going to sue them for?

Also check that cutting the sensors would turn them off. A wire has become disconnected on my car which has caused the check engine light to come on - it does that automatically if the circuit is broken. I've also had my brake sensor light come on when the brakes on my lorry were fixed and the sensor wasn't reconnected properly.
 
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Just a side note: I don't know how it cost 2K to service your brakes?

I know I'm not talking about a truck here. but for a car such as a Discovery, a set of pads (two pairs) are under 20 quid and a replacement disc is about 40.
I know it would be more for a truck even taking that and labour into consideration 2K sounds excessive.
 
I was billed a lot more than that for almost identical work from a Commercial Garage (we didn't pay it, they did the work without our authorisation - the lorry was an economic write-off at a lot less than the size of the bill), so your mechanic isn't overcharging you.

I hope that you will be able to establish that the seller is a dealer, as you'll have a much better chance against him then. Beware though, my friends spent £10,000 going to Court to get a judgement against a horse dealer. They won the case, the dealer bankrupted herself and they never saw a penny of their damages or their costs :(
 
dieseldog said:
You bought the lorry knowing you had to replace the brakes. You just had to replace the brakes earlier than you thought. I was always going to cost you £2k to do it, with that mechanic.
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It is not normal to have to replace the complete braking system, calipers, cylinders, pads, disks, the lot. All my friends have old lorries and I am the only one in twenty years who had a lorry has needed this level of work. I've had three lorries myself and only one of them has ever needed it and that was due to poor maintenance by the previous fitter.
 
Santa Paws said:
It is not normal to have to replace the complete braking system, calipers, cylinders, pads, disks, the lot. All my friends have old lorries and I am the only one in twenty years who had a lorry has needed this level of work. I've had three lorries myself and only one of them has ever needed it and that was due to poor maintenance by the previous fitter.
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But they bought the lorry knowing there was a problem with it. If you go to court the vendor will use your mechanic against you, you used a professional and he advised you to buy it.
 
I am sorry about the experience but can't see any realistic advantage in pursuing anyone in this instance.

I do wonder though how the brakes deteriorated so much since the last mot. I may have missed it but how long ago was the vosa MOT test?
 
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dieseldog said:
But they bought the lorry knowing there was a problem with it. If you go to court the vendor will use your mechanic against you, you used a professional and he advised you to buy it.
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The whole point of the post is that they did NOT know the work that would be needed to make the vehicle serviceable, and that on top of that it was downright dangerous for them even to have driven it home.

I do agree they don't have much a of a legal leg to stand on :(
 
Buying a lorry privately is full of pitfalls, but original poster was very wise to have it looked at. I hope the original poster did point out to seller about the brakes needing work and agreed the selling price according.

When i brought my lorry i took it to my garage and spent a large sum on it BUT then i knew what i had and I had piece of mind that the lorry was safe for me and my horses.

Why take it further - lots of hassle
 
Santa Paws said:
The whole point of the post is that they did NOT know the work that would be needed to make the vehicle serviceable, and that on top of that it was downright dangerous for them even to have driven it home.

I do agree they don't have much a of a legal leg to stand on :(
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It all a nightmare and I hope they sort it out.
 
To be honest a lot of people are berating the vendors if they genuinely are a private seller they may not have known the state of the brakes.Even the professional mechanic missed it I am still not sure how as the rear brake pads can be easily assessed with the wheels on .
I am afraid callipers and master cylinders are quite common to have to replace on an Iveco.
It sounds to me it had stood for a while any horsebox with disc brakes will suffer these problems if left standing and not used.
I still think your mechanic is the main culprit here none of the parts are unusual to have to replace on an Iveco so they should have been carefully looked at along with the cab front mountings for corrosion.most horseboxes I see would have the brake sensors disconnected so I would not find that sinister at all ,they corrode really badly and break so most mechanics just tape them up.
 
chloeeze said:
Hi,

Thanks for the replies, I did get a second opinion on whether the mechanic should have picked up the various issues with the brakes and until you start taking wheels off/stripping them down a lot of the problems cannot be picked up. For instance the damage on the disc on the rear wheel could only be seen when the wheel was taken off and other parts removed. The 2k does include servicing as well but it also includes new pads/discs on everything, new caliper, new master cylinder and time spent freeing off all the calipers as they were all seized on due to the master cylinder not working and the brake failure warning sensors being cut. I trust the mechanic as I've used him a lot and he has an excellent reputation for working on horse lorries.

I have got photos of everything including the cut brake failure sensors and kept all the damaged parts. I cannot understand why anyone would choose to have the brake wear sensors cut as it is a safety feature designed to warn you of the the brake pads getting low and who wouldnt want to be warned of that when you have such precious cargo as your horse onboard? The lorry is an Iveco 7.5t. He will not hand over the details of the guy who supposedly serviced it but I believe this guy can be traced. My next step is to also contact Vosa and check the outcome of its last testing.

Thanks for taking the time to reply,

CJ
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I would say you will find alot of brake pad wear indicators have been cut off on most older lorrys,they were on my 03 DAF .. to be honest if everything is renewed new pads and discs its doubtfull you will wear them out sadly people sell on because things need money spent on them mine needed a fair bit done when I got it and it had come from a big fleet with there own fitters!! so its worth doing it properly once then you should have years of trouble free motoring Oh and is it a tector ?? if it is MAKE SURE they change the breather filters in back of the engine because if they block up it can blow the seals out of the turbo and worse the engine can run away due to running on the oil if this happens you may need a new engine!!!!!!!
 
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Brake pad sensors are a complete irrelevance. I rarely see a vehicle with all of them intact and working.They are not an MOT requirement and their absence is not in any way ,poor practice. In fact ,poor practice would be relying on somthing like this rather than getting a torch and a mirror and checking directly. As for the VOSA test,people put too much reliance on it. I have seen some horrors with a new MOT. Truely dangerous lorrys. I am currently working on a lorry which I inspected for the new owners. I checked the discs (both sides ,its not difficult) and confirmed that they all needed replacing. It had a new MOT because the brake test showed that the brakes were in ballance and exceeding the minimum figures. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE BRAKES WOULD HAVE REMAINED SAtISFACTORY FOR LONG.People put too much faith in MOTs .They only show that the vehicle was OK at the time of the test.Incidentaly because I know horsebox owners too well ,I never rely on brake wear indicators ,and the naieve belief that the owner will do somthing about the light that appears on the dash.(other than possibly remove the bulb). I am also aware that their truck will probably not be looked at till the next MOT is due.I change brake pads /shoes if there is the slightest possibility of them not lasting a year. This would not be necessary on a vehicle getting regular inspections.
 
Mike007 said:
Brake pad sensors are a complete irrelevance. I rarely see a vehicle with all of them intact and working.They are not an MOT requirement and their absence is not in any way ,poor practice. In fact ,poor practice would be relying on somthing like this rather than getting a torch and a mirror and checking directly. As for the VOSA test,people put too much reliance on it. I have seen some horrors with a new MOT. Truely dangerous lorrys. I am currently working on a lorry which I inspected for the new owners. I checked the discs (both sides ,its not difficult) and confirmed that they all needed replacing. It had a new MOT because the brake test showed that the brakes were in ballance and exceeding the minimum figures. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE BRAKES WOULD HAVE REMAINED SAtISFACTORY FOR LONG.People put too much faith in MOTs .They only show that the vehicle was OK at the time of the test.Incidentaly because I know horsebox owners too well ,I never rely on brake wear indicators ,and the naieve belief that the owner will do somthing about the light that appears on the dash.(other than possibly remove the bulb). I am also aware that their truck will probably not be looked at till the next MOT is due.I change brake pads /shoes if there is the slightest possibility of them not lasting a year. This would not be necessary on a vehicle getting regular inspections.
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Yes good points and would add its alot easyier to get a HGV passed and ive taken things with rusty discs and like you say if they meet the minimum % on the brake test.... I never worry as much about lorry testing they have to be a real heap to fail or stupid things like lighting or side guards .... but the car mot testing thats a different ball game !!!
 
Hi,

I managed to get some legal advice today and they believe I have a case and the next step to take is the small claims court so that is what I will be looking into now. More importantly now I know I have a lorry that is safe to carry my horses. It certainly is a lesson learnt and if/when I buy a lorry again I do not intend to be in this position ever again. The fact that the master cylinder was not allowing hydraulic fluid to return caused major wear on all the brakes because even when the driver was not braking the brakes were partially on, such a shame all this could have been avoided to some degree if the brake wear sensors had been operative or the vendor had the lorry serviced as he claimed. For those of you that took the time to give me your constructive opinions, thank you very much. Thanks very much for the advice on checking the filter on the back of the engine if its a tector, I will look into that.
Best Wishes,

CJ
 
I'm surprised they said you have a case against a private seller especially as you had the vehicle inspected, but then again some lawyers never surprise me as they win either way getting your fees. Remember small claims court will not award you fees (well very rarely) so you need to weigh up that what you will spend in fees is not going to wipe out anything you MIGHT get awarded by the courts. To be honest you have a far better case against your mechanic than the sellers especially if you paid him to carry out a pre purchase vehicle inspection.

oh and although my training is now somewhat out of date I was an almost fully qualified lawyer and its those that advise people such as yourself that they have a case and no win no fee types who put me off doing the very last step of qualifying.
 
I'm sorry OP, but why go to court. What will it solve? You now know you have good truck, if a private sale as Santa C says i would be more pissy with the person you paid to do pre-inspection.
If me i would spent my money on getting out and about with the horses in your new truck. Instead of spending dosh in small claims court where there is no cert of getting any money back just spending more! - Sorry a bit harsh but why give yourself more hassle, unless there is another story here?
 
Santa_Claus said:
I'm surprised they said you have a case against a private seller especially as you had the vehicle inspected, but then again some lawyers never surprise me as they win either way getting your fees. Remember small claims court will not award you fees (well very rarely) so you need to weigh up that what you will spend in fees is not going to wipe out anything you MIGHT get awarded by the courts. To be honest you have a far better case against your mechanic than the sellers especially if you paid him to carry out a pre purchase vehicle inspection.

oh and although my training is now somewhat out of date I was an almost fully qualified lawyer and its those that advise people such as yourself that they have a case and no win no fee types who put me off doing the very last step of qualifying.
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Good advice its a bit like asking a painter should I have my house redecorated !!!! , and lawers are very good at escalating a dispute, every letter and phone call is money so nothing is made simple!!!!:D I can fully understand the desire to get justice but be carefull and measured....
 
You might be able to claim solicitor fees on your house insurance, but when I looked at mine it wouldn't cover me for Sales of Goods act if the item cost over £50 or was a motor vehicle. You can't claim costs back, you can claim the cost of filing the action and travel to the court. The case has to be heard in the vendors local court too.

Good luck with what you decide to do.
 
Santa_Claus said:
I'm surprised they said you have a case against a private seller especially as you had the vehicle inspected, but then again some lawyers never surprise me as they win either way getting your fees. Remember small claims court will not award you fees (well very rarely) so you need to weigh up that what you will spend in fees is not going to wipe out anything you MIGHT get awarded by the courts. To be honest you have a far better case against your mechanic than the sellers especially if you paid him to carry out a pre purchase vehicle inspection.

oh and although my training is now somewhat out of date I was an almost fully qualified lawyer and its those that advise people such as yourself that they have a case and no win no fee types who put me off doing the very last step of qualifying.
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Have to agree! Your mechanic let you down. Incidentaly my legal qualifications are rather the reverse of santa claus. I didnt bother with formal training but neverthe less have been recognised as qualified by some of the highest courts in the land:D(education aint all its cracked up to be:D)You:eek: should read my press reviews in the "All England Law Review":eek::eek::eek:
 
Sorry to hear about what has happened.
I too would be more mad with the mechanic on your pre purchase check than the seller, if he would have picked up the problems you paid him to check then you wouldnt be in this position now. TBH I wouldnt be suprised if the seller didnt have a clue about the brakes prior to sale.
My last lorry had an annoying light that kept coming on, that was an Iveco too. I had it checked out as it bothered me and was told my brakes were fine but that Iveco's and other post 2001 chassis had sensors that could give false readings, mainly due to lack of use and rust/dirt on the sensors which may be why the wires were cut. I was told that many people have the bulb removed too, to stop the warning lights???
Good luck with what ever you decide to do.
 
Here in NZ a vehicle for sale must have a new Warrent of Fitness or a Certificate of Fitness for a horsebox - at least then you know the vehicle is basically in a safe condition.

Maybe a way to go when buying an expensive vehicle is to have an MOT done on it prior to purchase. If the vendor has nothing to hide they will surely be more than happy to comply.

We also have testing centres that are soley for the road testing of vehicles - they have no vested interest in doing any repair work on the vehicle so you don't get ripped off by the cunning mechanic.

Good thing you chose to have your truck serviced it could have been very nasty if you had had to stop in a hurry.
 
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