Buying from Abroad - shocking!

digitalangel

digitalangel

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Well that was certainly an experience..

What was supposed to be a 5 year old backed for 6 months turned out to be a 4 year old barely backed 6 weeks, underweight, no muscle, cow-hocked, shaggy coat, very baby-baby and sporting these feet...

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Is this normal? seriously? they apologised for his fluffiness ( i can see past that ) but didnt mention his feet at all. They backed him with feet like this, and theyve had him at the yard 'a few months' so god knows how long theyve been like that.

What i didnt get is that it was a nice yard, with a lot of mega-megabucks horses for sale too, some horses were shod ( with looong toes ) and some not shod, but none with feet as bad as these, so obviously a farrier comes out - how could the owner let them get into this state let alone show him a to a client? This guy is apparently a GP dressage rider...

Back view ( check out those lovely cow hocks, also illustrates the lateral flare in front )

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side view of the heels..

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o_O

Sadly he wasnt worth even half of the money he was advertised for, so despite being put under huge pressure to buy him ( at the money they wanted ) i had to walk away - which totally broke my heart. he is a half-brother to the grey in my sig, but its is too much of a risk, and i cant imagine the soft tissue damage thats already been done, let alone the work it will take to fix..

Such a shame, i would have gladly paid the full asking price if his feet had been well looked after.. :(
 
I could understand slight chipping/not perfect feet on a young horse that has only recently been backed. But that's a set of erm...quite horrific feet given the situation!

The backs are not too bad on their own - but not symmetric to each other (left hind is really cow hocked which prob influences it).

The fronts....splayed and really flat, would be interesting to see his movement now and after long term trimming.

With a lot of time, effort and quite a bit of money....the feet themselves could be remedied....but as you said, the soft tissue damage from moving with feet like that/joints at those angles long term - might never be.
 
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Honestly? Theyve probably done next to no work with the horse so I doubt he'll have any long term problems.
Tis certainly shocking though that someone would dare to present a horse in that state for sale!
 
glad its not just me!

he kept standing with his LH underneath himself and seemed to not want to use it as much but that could be a baby balance thing. BUT it was the only leg he wasnt totally happy with me picking up. So that was another mark against him.

He was fine with me handing, poking and prodding his feet in general, so i know it wasnt a handling issue.
 
Lordy! Roo's feet were a bit rubbish when we bought his but he was rising 3 and had literally done nothing, they sorted out quickly with a decent farrier but seller was honest from start and said she hadn't had time/money to do regularly....
Shame he was no good - will you keep looking?
 
having previously taken the chance on a horse with similar feet (was cheap so worth the risk) having had specialist farrier (previous olympic team farrier + world champ amongst numerous other qualifications so seriously the best farrier could get) say they were 'fixable' and horse had otherwise v good conformation plus had only been lightly broken I wouldn't do so again.

End result was he was PTS as a 5yo 18 months after buying him as we just couldn't keep him sound. Was heartbreaking as he was exceptionally talented (isn't it always the way!) and a lovely 'person' but vet and farrier both agreed there was little more to try by that point and realistically he would at best be a happy hacker, something he was never going to be in terms of temperament.
 
santa Claus, im so sorry you lost your horse, thats really a sad story, but probably one i needed to hear.

I (personally) dont think his feet are worth the risk - they didnt get into that state overnight, and i would (personally) worry about soft tissue damage and im not about to MRI hm which would be the only way to know. It could be that he would be OK, or he might not be, there is just no way to tell, and i ust hope he does not end up like santa claus's horse.

would love to hear more about the knees though.
 
Roo's were differently bad (that's terrible English sorry!) they were quite cracked and overgrown but hadn't gone long and splayed like that.... They sti had shorter heels and a better angle down from fetlock to floor (although one is slightly boxy) but we discussed at length with our vet, the vetting vet and my trusted farrier and all agreed that it was simply a bit of neglect and was easily fixable. Crucially he actually has very good horn quality and quite deep feet (ie not at all flat footed). And was probably half this one's age....
Would also be interested to hear about the knees tho - are we talking about the angle of them?
 
regarding the comment about the knees, does this help? not massively accurate, just did it quickly :D

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the parallel red lines should bisect the forearm, knee, fetlock and where the toe clip would be, in perfect equal halves.
ill leave you to draw your own conclusions as i wouldnt like to comment on someone elses horse on an open forum, i dont think its fair, but pm me if you want more ideas/info!
a lot of horses abroad (and here!) will have similar feet ie need a farrier!
but the important bit is whats above, you cannot change that after 2yo.

eta - ok, the line on the left fore should be a little more to the inside....! but not an awful lot!
 
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yes it helps - thank you!

i could see when i met him he was base narrow in front and toe out, i said as much to the sellers ... tho i thought it was coming from the fetlock tho... he doesnt look as knock-kneed as another youngster i viewed not long ago, but i do see what you mean from your lines.

:( so sad.
 
Hmm yes that's what I thought you meant. I disagree slightly that this can't change at all after 2, my youngster is slightly off the ideal straight line (although does not splay/twist from the knee, just was slightly knock-kneed as a 2/3 year old. As his chest fills out though he is getting less and less so.
Totally agree that any element of twist is best avoided my old girl who I bought when I was too young to know any better is the other way around ie toed in, and developed artritis in her fetlocks aged 11.
 
agreed, they can widen at the chest after 2, which may change how the entire limb appears, but you cannot correct any angular deformities such as carpal valgus/varus, toe in out etc, as after 2, 2/12, as the epiphyseal discs, or growth plates, have closed allowing no further growth. this is why early trimming is so vital!
 
digitalangel thanks it has been 10 years (or actually 11!) now and treatments have come on but still I wouldn't risk it as "no hoof no horse" is the key especially if you want to event. My current horse was imported from Holland as a newly broken 4yo but has great feet so you don't have to except bad feet as a given from imported horses!
 
digitalangel said:
would love to hear more about the knees though.
Click to expand...

Sorry, dog was asleep on the computer chair and I didn't have the heart to move him! :)

Look at all the angles of the knees, particularly the outsides; they're far too bony and angular, not smooth like a good pair should be. It's not due to the lack of condition but possibly uneven wear on the growth plates that have gone on, poor little blighter and probably linked to the lack of farrier care. He'll likely be prone to splints because of the uneven pressure that will be made on them and probably won't have a long working life. That's my take on them anyway. I've been trying to find some pics to illustrate what I mean but I'm too much of a google numpty to find any.

ETA the lines show well how off centre the legs are very well.
 
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To be fair though, lots of big, relatively late maturing youngsters toe out slightly and then come straight as they fill out. Obviously this is not the case if the deformity is unilateral and/or does not involve the whole leg from the elbow. An angular limb deformity from the knee down, or one that's not the same in both legs is not likely to come right.

And there are dressage horses that are purposefully bred/chosen "off straight" toed in in front because there is a school of thought this conformation frees up the elbow. There are quite a few horses at the top end, who have stood up to the training to get there and go on for years, that aren't dead straight in front.

Same with the "rough" joints. Not saying anything to the horse on this thread but I've seen a fair number of warmblood youngsters that don't have the "clean" joints we may be more used to seeing in young horses but are fine on x-ray and have perfectly sound, serviceable lives. My experience is limited but I've found many "traditional" warmblood breeders to be considerably more relaxed about that sort of thing - rightly or wrongly, I guess, depending on your opinion.

I'm not saying one should set out to buy a crooked horse or that conformation isn't important (or that any of this has anything to do with the horse in this thread), but I'm not sure the "standards" are as cut and dried on the Continent (or in the very top echelons of sport, tbh) as they are here or in North America. Obviously there is a prefect model but from what I've seen, top dealers/buyers/breeders/riders may not dismiss a horse in the same way so may not be wilfully hiding conformation flaws from potential buyers so much as not giving them the same weight.

I also do think, though, that some Continental sellers tend to think they can sell any old ***** of **** horse to overseas buyers and somehow they won't know. :)
 
Another one here who took a chance on a young horse with horrible feet thinking "ha ha I can fix that"
Said horse, hundreds of pounds of vets and farriers later, not been rideable for last six months:mad: :(
 
thanks so much everyone..

Yes, the sellers werent hiding the defects, they just didnt think it was an issue, same with his feet - they told me thats what xrays were for! and i do appreciate that they might fill out/grow but in this horses case, having seen it in the flesh, i doubt it. I guess the feet bother me the most, having had issues with my greys feet i dont want to start on the back foot and i do think conformation does count for a lot.

interestingly, the dealer said on my way out if she could keep in touch, if he doesnt sell in the next couple of weeks, they may call and accept my (very low) offer. not sure what i would do if that were the case..
 
For all of my comments re knock knees growing out slightly etc.....I would never buy a horse with poor hoof quality and would think very hard before buying a flat footed one....
 
Interesting thread. Do people think the same way about a horse with mismatching front feet? I have recently viewed a lovely 4 year but one front foot was boxier that the other.
 
Lol I can't think badly of on with a slightly boxy foot as mine does! When we viewed him at rising 3 he hadn't been well trimmed etc, we discussed the slight boxiness with vet and farrier and both were of the opinion that as it was marginal, the less boxy one was spot on in terms of angle, it doesn't affect the angle of his pastern/fetlock, and neither were flat footed and have excellent quality of growth, that he was worth the risk. Plus realistically if he was a perfect specimin he probably would have been out of our price range. It looked DRAMATICALLY better after one proper trim, and 2 years down the line you have to look hard to even notice it. My farrier says the feet are actually less than half a shoe size different, he shoes them in the same size to encourage the boxier one to widen. He also shoes in roll toes and quarter clips.
Vet's call on it was twofold. Firstly his question was was he born like that - answer was yes. This meant in his opinion that there wasn't anything underlying causing the boxiness, it was simply the way he was built. Second thing he looked at carefully was the angles of the rest of the leg. I'm trying to find a pic but basically he felt it wasn't affecting the rest of his leg. Now bearing in mind this was a sub £3000 horse at the time destined to be OH's RC allrounder, we decided to take the risk. So far so good - foot is now barely noticeable.
Thats just my experience tho and were I looking for something more expenisive/higher level (altho he now looks like he is mine and may be my first real competition horse!) I might have been more cautious....
 
many moons ago i bought a mare with one foot different in size to the other - neither vet nore farrier saw it as an issue and said it was fairly common? either way it passed the vet..
 
Although didn't own him did compete for many years a horse with one foot noticeably bigger than the other but both were overall acceptable. Did a lot of showing (Jersey stuff so not high level ;) ) and most judges didn't notice and he would normally win, some judges did and stuck him at the bottom of the line for it!

He showjumped to newcomers/fox level (wasn't the scopiest!) did dressage, hunted and was used for the riding school advanced riders which his owner ran. If i remember rightly he did get navicular but that was at 15/16ish so not young and he was sucessfully denerved and he continued dressage, hacking and riding school work just didn't jump or hunt due to the possible risks associated with denerving.

Odd feet don't bother me hugely as we as humans also have odd feet normally (hey i have one size 7 one size 6.5!) the problems for me are flat feet, collasped heels etc that may allow bone movements which ultimately cannot be rectified.
 
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