Buying from dealers

B

be positive

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Another thread got me thinking about this, numerous people come on here, often new members looking for advice, having bought the 'perfect' horse from a dealer only to have serious issues within a fairly short time, sometimes a few days, some a few weeks some longer but the pattern tends to be similar, horse is good when tried, passes a vetting, is fine for a few days/ weeks/ months then it goes completely pear shaped, they try all the obvious, sometimes the less obvious, end up with the vet and the diagnosis usually takes a long time often with behavioural issues being the first route to treating before the primary issue is eventually found which 9 times out of 10 is a veterinary problem causing the behaviour.

A comment on a different thread stated 'a good horse will sell in a day' or something similar, so how do these schoolmaster, perfect first horses end up with dealers, I am not counting the green youngsters or projects just those that sound as if they are paragons of virtue, the type everyone wants, that should sell for good money quickly if they are as described, obviously there are a few genuinely desperate people who have to sell quickly and a dealer will not mess about but the majority have come from somewhere at a low enough price the dealer will be able to make a fair, or possibly unfair, profit, so it is an easy option for the less scrupulous owner to pass on their unsound, possibly undiagnosed or untreated or even a horse that has had treatment without having to declare an issue, the dealer may be duped but do they honestly believe that the £5k horse they are buying for £2k is genuine or do they hope they can pass it on quickly enough that the symptoms do not show?
I don't think they are selling on bute, sedating or actually failing to declare issues, I think they don't look for them and keep their fingers crossed the new owner will not have a problem or if they do it will be long enough after purchase to be considered a new issue and there will be no comeback.

A rather long ramble but something that comes to mind whenever there is a thread about the new horse going wrong yet whenever someone is looking for a nice first horse dealers with a good reputation are recommended and I always wonder where they source these type of horses that we struggle to find at any price.

A dealer near me used to place an ad in H&H offering to buy any horse, 'some soundness issues accepted', they then sold them on undeclared and for a big profit, one owner never rode their new horse due to lameness, would not send it back and did trace it to the last home who had sold it to said dealer as a companion/ light hack due to arthritis, they should not have sold it but equally the dealer should not have bought it to resell, she is still active under a different name but with probably similar ethics.
 
Good post BP.

From another angle, we then have the punters who purchase from dealers.

A good number do have knowledge and/or equestrian help, with instructors, vets etc who they trust. This generally relates to those looking at competition horses (I say generally)

Many do not though.
In this 2nd group there are a good number of riders who do not have experience either to buy, or to maintain any schooling and manners. Often the horse or pony may try their luck and if not dealt with in an appropriate way, will then keep on trying....

Example: I've recently been helping a local with a small horse that she should not ever have purchased.
Went on her own, tried in arena and hacked down a road and back, loved the horse. Seller advised purchaser to keep on with regular lessons as was nice horse but a little green. Purchaser agreed, but didnt ask for any help till she got into big problems (for her) 4 weeks down the line...
Purchaser had stage 2 vetting on a 4.5k horse.
Horse was in a comp yard, now in a DIY yard with no routine.
Horse used to turnout with 2 or 3 others. Now out in a 20 x 20 pen for 3 hours. (Which won't change till late spring)
Its a very confused and distressed horse.
It does still have manners but the new owner is 'scared' of it as it's trying to evade on the ground, it's got no direction when being ridden but aimlessly trotting round and round arena. Its lost its top line, now falls in, bikes round corners etc, all of which it didnt do at purchase.
Rider really should not have over horsed themself but they didnt realise this, as didnt have enough knowledge to ask for help with purchase.

Basically it's a nice little RC horse, which really ought to be on a yard where owner has assisted livery, turnout and tuition. Currently it's a car crash situation and dealer has been blamed totally.

I know we can all blame the dealers and sellers, but often the purchasers need to accept responsibility for their abilities and what situation they are going to place a new horse into.
 
I suppose if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. A good friend of mine bought 3 last year from a very well known polo dealer. I has been discovered to have a serious back condition, 1 is generally sound 1 week and then lame 2 weeks (this was an expensive horse, more than 30k) and the other is too green for him. Of course the reality is that he should have taken a pro with him, had his own vet etc, but I think people get carried away wanting to believe the story. In respect of the horse with the back condition I don't believe that the dealer even knew - the horse was probably just super fit and ridden by light and experienced riders, and then sadly sold to a 100kg amateur. It just seems a shame that dealers don't try to build their reputations by selling suitable horses - to me it was clear at first sight that the very expensive horse was too fine for this rider and that the young one was too green - so could he not have picked out more suitable ones?
 
Inexperienced buyers some of which cant even tack up see an animal fall in love and end up with a problem.

They might have been 6 months riding school horses and think they can ride.

Another scenario is they get the horse and then get any saddle have no idea about saddle, bit or bridle fitting and bang it on the horse.

Its exactly the same when you see stuff happen on the road some riders havent a clue how to basically ride and shouldn't be on the road and they cant control the animal they are on.

The list goes on...yes buyers need to check everything and it's their responsibility to do so. Stalk stalk stalk

It's not the cost of buying the horse, its the cost of keeping it.
 
Just to add that I don’t like selling horses (v stressful) so have always had a third party ‘buffer’ but have checked out the home.
But another part of the problem is that dealers often have very competent ‘strong’ riders who can make a horse look good - and when a novice gets it home it’s not quite so straightforward?
 
It's a tough one. New owners are often recommended to go to a dealer as they have legal protection if the animal is 'not as described'. Also with a less scrupulous dealer, there is the issue of spotting them first! They often pose as private sellers i they think they can get away with it. On the other hand, there are many nice enough horses sold where it's just a bad match between new horse and owner - how they're kept, how often they're worked, turnout etc. A dealers yard is so different to the average livery yard in the way horses are managed by experienced professionals compared to how a horse will be looked after on the average DIY by a new or one horse every 20 years amateur owner. Even the 'easiest' horse will often act up in a new home. They do have a mind of their own.

As buyers we do have a responsibility to do due diligence by vetting, by being honest about our abilities (in my case, the lack of them!) and whether the horse will suit our lifestyle - who hasn't looked at horse that will do what they would like to be able to do rather than what they can do currently? In saying that dealers like the OP talks about should be held to account by purchasers as the law allows but you can only access those protections if they have documented the whole way through the purchase process rather than buying with their heart. It's difficult because there does have to be an emotional bond when you're effectively buying a large pet that you could have for decades but they are big, potentially dangerous, very expensive pets. I do think that there needs to be a culture change in how horses (and dogs but that's a different thread) are bought and sold with clearer duty from both sides to be able to demonstrate facts rather than opinions if that makes sense?
 
In the 90s, we had a very good dealer locally who sourced mainly youngsters. A lot came from Ireland. They were green, but always sane and sound. Infact, there are 3 owned by friends who are still going strong, in their late 20s and 2 of the 3 still in work. That’s testament really to the quality of the animals that this dealer had. They were never ridiculously priced either. Because of the good name this dealer had, and her ability to source decent, honest animals, she could sell them at very good prices because she had so many coming in and out and didn’t need to rely on the money from selling one to last her until the next one. She supplied many local riding schools with good horses, many competition ponies, RDA horses, you name it. But, back then, people did seem to be willing to spend the time to get to know the horse and deal with any little hiccups and work through them.

I do think the problem now is that there are a lot of bin end dealers who are trying to sell slightly older horses (or at least, not youngsters) and those horses have usually ended up with that dealer because there is a problem with them, whether that be soundness or otherwise.
There seem to be less dealers around getting decent youngsters in and selling them on at affordable prices.
 
Kaylum said:
Inexperienced buyers some of which cant even tack up see an animal fall in love and end up with a problem.

They might have been 6 months riding school horses and think they can ride.

Another scenario is they get the horse and then get any saddle have no idea about saddle, bit or bridle fitting and bang it on the horse.

Its exactly the same when you see stuff happen on the road some riders havent a clue how to basically ride and shouldn't be on the road and they cant control the animal they are on.
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I have been astounded - and horrified - by people in the past who have 2 or 3 lessons and go out and buy big warmblood types, young and completely inappropriate for a total novice, and move them onto DIY yards with absolutely no idea how to look after them. It's like some people have no concept of the idea that they are responsible for the animal and that means they have to educate themselves and actually make a bloody effort, instead of expecting the horse to put up with abysmal management and other people to step in and sort it out for them.
 
I do think the problem now is that there are a lot of bin end dealers who are trying to sell slightly older horses (or at least, not youngsters) and those horses have usually ended up with that dealer because there is a problem with them, whether that be soundness or otherwise.
There seem to be less dealers around getting decent youngsters in and selling them on at affordable prices.

That is more my point, the been there and done it horse that should suit a novice owner that is told to buy an older horse but ends up with a problem, they are often then blamed for being too inexperienced and causing the issue when in reality the horse was off loaded because trouble was brewing, buying green then being unable to cope when the horse proves beyond the new owner is a different issue and usually due to the buyer being totally deluded as to their capabilities both are regularly seen, luckily I have not encountered the type described by jftd, when selling I usually avoid even meeting the complete novices, my interview technique weeds them out fairly quickly;)
 
be positive said:
luckily I have not encountered the type described by jftd, when selling I usually avoid even meeting the complete novices, my interview technique weeds them out fairly quickly;)
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I don't sell horses to them, I had the misfortune to livery with one (and I've met a few others, but none as clueless as the one on livery, who asked what my friend had on her horse under her saddle - a saddle cloth - and had owned the WB for several weeks before buying it a rug, or learning how to put it on - in the interim, the other liveries had taken to bringing it in and drying it off / feeding it when they found it tucked up and shivering in the field after nights of driving rain :oops: it went on for months before she even got a freelancer in - I still don't like the way the poor animal is kept, but I left the yard and ran a mile or ten!)

But I know you're far too sensible and horse-centric to sell horses to muppets like that, BP!
 
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We had one locally where a new owner was well advised and had bought a suitable horse and had it on assisted DIY. It sounds like it should have been a success only the owner wouldn't turn the horse out and wouldn't let anyone else turn it out. In the end the old owner took it back and I have a strong suspicion that it was the YO who called the old owner and set that in motion.
 
I've been taken aback too on the huge gap between how little people know before they get a horse and how much they think they know, combined with an unwillingness to ask questions and learn.

Whilst this isn't always the case, I don't always think the fault is with the dealers, there are so many other variables, change of routine, handling, feed, skill level that make a massive difference to the way a horse settles into a new home.
 
Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:
I have been astounded - and horrified - by people in the past who have 2 or 3 lessons and go out and buy big warmblood types, young and completely inappropriate for a total novice, and move them onto DIY yards with absolutely no idea how to look after them. It's like some people have no concept of the idea that they are responsible for the animal and that means they have to educate themselves and actually make a bloody effort, instead of expecting the horse to put up with abysmal management and other people to step in and sort it out for them.
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Until there is a legal requirement of both knowledge, ability and facilities which I can’t see happening mismatches will continue to occur.
Trying to explain basic horse ownership knowledge is no easier than trying to explain cricket to an American. ( other nationalities may be used!)
 
Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:
I don't sell horses to them, I had the misfortune to livery with one (and I've met a few others, but none as clueless as the one on livery, who asked what my friend had on her horse under her saddle - a saddle cloth - and had owned the WB for several weeks before buying it a rug, or learning how to put it on - in the interim, the other liveries had taken to bringing it in and drying it off / feeding it when they found it tucked up and shivering in the field after nights of driving rain :oops: it went on for months before she even got a freelancer in - I still don't like the way the poor animal is kept, but I left the yard and ran a mile or ten!)

But I know you're far to sensible and horse-centric to sell horses to muppets like that, BP!
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I knew you would not sell to them, just being on the same yard would be enough pain, as a YO, apart from my recent livery who should have known better having owned for many years, most of my owners, even first timers, have had a good grasp of their responsibilities and are eager to learn.
 
be positive said:
I knew you would not sell to them, just being on the same yard would be enough pain, as a YO, apart from my recent livery who should have known better having owned for many years, most of my owners, even first timers, have had a good grasp of their responsibilities and are eager to learn.
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No, I don't sell horses anyway, I just collect them :eek: Your recent liveries were bizarre, how any experienced horse person would treat horses like that is baffling.

(although yes, of course, the majority of owners at least try to learn and get things right, which is relief!)
 
I prefer buying from dealers. Dolly and Deedee both came from dealers who source and produce nice youngsters. They have a good eye for a horse , 5 stage vet before they buy, spend at least 6 weeks getting to know the horse or pony in all sorts of situations before putting them up for sale. They also have all their horses checked by a physio and any issues sorted. I know because I am friends with the physio. That- seems a million miles away from bin end dealers BP describes. I got my fingers burnt with Ginny who also came from a dealer with a good local reputation. But who it turns out is dodgy as! Sold a known bolter to a child among other things. The difficulty is knowing which dealer is which type.
 
I truly feel that most problems that manifest with horses within a few weeks or months of being in a new home, particularly a novice home, can be attributed to change in environment/management/ability & confidence of rider. Sadly many new owners see purchasing a horse as the end of them needing to pay for ridden lessons, when in reality good instruction is needed then more than ever. Many people think a horse will just adapt & fit into their chosen way of keeping it. They don’t consider the importance of buying a horse that already lives in a similar environment to the new one. Of course there will be horses that change their behaviour due to a medical issue, but the vast majority will be due to not having their needs met by being managed and ridden in a way that they are not familiar with or doesn’t suit them. Unfortunately most people are too arrogant to see this so go on a wild goose chase looking for a medical cause. Or they blame the seller for selling them an unsuitable horse. I could go on all day about this.......

I would always be suspicious of middle-aged, safe, sound, allrounder types for sale by dealers. If you are a private individual that doesn’t want the hassle of selling such a horse then you use a reputable local sales livery. Why would you sell it to a dealer for way less than market value for them to make a hefty profit on?
 
Any horse bought from a dealer should cost a fair bit more than the same horse bought from a private seller, to allow for the dealer's overheads and greater liability under the sale of goods act.

If it doesn't, that should raise very big question marks.

Both buying and selling are a stressful minefield these days. So many unrealistic buyers, so few sound horses.

.
 
I will hold my hands up and admit I was the novice owner that outhorsed/(ponied?) themselves. However I then threw the purchase value again at my mare in saddler, physio, dentist, bit consultant and lessons and clinics and stayed on part livery for my first 18 months of ownership whilst I absorbed as much knowledge as possible.

I think a lot of cases the blame can not lie entirely with the owner or the dealer, but both.

I know dealers need to make a living but I know I personally couldn’t send a living breathing helpless animal to an unsuitable home ?. The owners then should not be so arrogant or naieve to think they don’t need assistance. I don’t know what the answer is but it’s so sad that nearly every time it’s the horse that suffers.
 
canteron said:
Just to add that I don’t like selling horses (v stressful) so have always had a third party ‘buffer’ but have checked out the home.
But another part of the problem is that dealers often have very competent ‘strong’ riders who can make a horse look good - and when a novice gets it home it’s not quite so straightforward?
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Re the point above: Strong riders at dealers yards. We look for nice "made" horses and ponies for RDA, they are some times bought sight unseen because they come from Ireland, the videos of them make them look well schooled perfect animals, when in truth they are pretty rough edged and green. The riders are really "carrying " them round the courses. Another case like this recently is a good friend, really experienced, looking for a new young potential event horse, sends me a video with "what do you think of this" in the subject box. It was quite obvious to me that the young man riding this horse was doing the job practically for the horse, but to give the horse her due, she was trying really hard to get things right. My comment to my friend was that I thought she would be a bit shocked to find out just how green this horse really was. She has bought her, she is a genuinely nice young horse but TBH she can hardly canter a 20 mtre circle yet the chap in the video had her jumping round some substantial xc fences in an arena. My friend is taking her back to basics and going slowly with lots of training help, she will do fine, but same horse in less experienced hands would have fallen apart after a few weeks.
 
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Mentally/physically strong riding works with pain too. A selling dealer/breaker, who I have used myself to sell a horse and is very honest, broke a friend's horse for her. I saw a video and was concerned that there was something odd about how the horse was occasionally trying to twist its hindquarters in and kick out with a back leg. It was put down to greenness, the horse was worked and behaved well and then went home. And bucked off the owner. Sent back to breakers, returned fine, no issues for them. Owner decided horse was too much for them and sent it to a very high class dressage dealer to sell. It was a spectacular looking, well bred beast. Dealer returned it as unfit to sell. Vet took one look, said 'stifle' and the horse was put down after confirmation that the stifle joint was too far gone to save.

The dealer/breaker would have sold the horse in good faith, it only broke when it was expected to begin dressage schooling.
 
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I have bought both private and through a dealer. I blame myself entirely for in the first instance, over- horsing myself (Warmblood 7 year old - at that point I had last ridden 25 years ago) and then falling for a hard story. The first has gone off to have champion babies due to her bloodline (I have asked for her back afterwards despite a broken collarbone and numerous falls). My Dealer mare’s advertisement was only 25% accurate. She can jump. She doesn’t hack alone, she gets hysterical when she hears hounds so can’t be ridden (her advert said she hunted) when they are within earshot, I had to hire a professional to get her to load on a trailer, she is so head shy I have named her the giraffe (having had to secure a pool noodle on the top of her stable door to stop her continuously bashing her face), she naps and rears and I could go on. I think the issue with horse people is we fall in love too easily. I would love there to be a website that asks a whole bunch of questions and at the end, suggests what type of horse you should look for. Together with this could be legal advice on where you sit and your recourse if things do go pear shape.
 
The Xmas Furry said:
Good post BP.

From another angle, we then have the punters who purchase from dealers.

A good number do have knowledge and/or equestrian help, with instructors, vets etc who they trust. This generally relates to those looking at competition horses (I say generally)

Many do not though.
In this 2nd group there are a good number of riders who do not have experience either to buy, or to maintain any schooling and manners. Often the horse or pony may try their luck and if not dealt with in an appropriate way, will then keep on trying....

Example: I've recently been helping a local with a small horse that she should not ever have purchased.
Went on her own, tried in arena and hacked down a road and back, loved the horse. Seller advised purchaser to keep on with regular lessons as was nice horse but a little green. Purchaser agreed, but didnt ask for any help till she got into big problems (for her) 4 weeks down the line...
Purchaser had stage 2 vetting on a 4.5k horse.
Horse was in a comp yard, now in a DIY yard with no routine.
Horse used to turnout with 2 or 3 others. Now out in a 20 x 20 pen for 3 hours. (Which won't change till late spring)
Its a very confused and distressed horse.
It does still have manners but the new owner is 'scared' of it as it's trying to evade on the ground, it's got no direction when being ridden but aimlessly trotting round and round arena. Its lost its top line, now falls in, bikes round corners etc, all of which it didnt do at purchase.
Rider really should not have over horsed themself but they didnt realise this, as didnt have enough knowledge to ask for help with purchase.

Basically it's a nice little RC horse, which really ought to be on a yard where owner has assisted livery, turnout and tuition. Currently it's a car crash situation and dealer has been blamed totally.

I know we can all blame the dealers and sellers, but often the purchasers need to accept responsibility for their abilities and what situation they are going to place a new horse into.
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There is a whole new breed of horse buyer that seems to have plenty of money to spend and possibly because of this, expect the horse to go into a new environment and behave like a machine. I think it can take up to a year to really make a bond and partnership, and that's if the horse isn't in livery where it won't only be handled by the owner. As a breeder, I am very careful who I sell to, and usually ask the prospective buyer to tack up the horse before riding. This tells me an awful lot, and some are then told I won't sell the horse to them (in a polite way). So many really don't have any knowledge of a horse's reactions. I had a good one once, when a buyer was cantering a horse in a circle, and then asked how she could stop it. I was quite taken aback, as she said she was an event rider. She ended up pulling it in small circles until it tripped and she fell off. She was incensed when I told her she couldn't get back on. Never seen anything like it!
 
cundlegreen said:
There is a whole new breed of horse buyer that seems to have plenty of money to spend and possibly because of this, expect the horse to go into a new environment and behave like a machine. I think it can take up to a year to really make a bond and partnership, and that's if the horse isn't in livery where it won't only be handled by the owner. As a breeder, I am very careful who I sell to, and usually ask the prospective buyer to tack up the horse before riding. This tells me an awful lot, and some are then told I won't sell the horse to them (in a polite way). So many really don't have any knowledge of a horse's reactions. I had a good one once, when a buyer was cantering a horse in a circle, and then asked how she could stop it. I was quite taken aback, as she said she was an event rider. She ended up pulling it in small circles until it tripped and she fell off. She was incensed when I told her she couldn't get back on. Never seen anything like it!
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I'll just say, I'd probably refuse to tack up - I like to stand back and watch ears / tail swishing / girthiness etc and it's easier to do that when you're not tacking up yourself.

But I like to have seen them lead up in hand at walk and trot first, then trot them up myself and looked at feet and teeth, so hopefully I can prove I'm not a complete idiot before we get that far!

Wow at the pulling up from canter woman though, that's awful.
 
In a perfect world all dealers would be responsible honest types and wouldn’t sell a horse to someone that wasn’t a good match. In the real world dealers are trading horses as a job to earn an income. They do not develop emotional attachments to the animals they are selling. For example if I’m selling my horse that I’ve owned and loved for several years I am going to want to find the very best home for him because I care deeply about him and it is therefore my number one priority that he goes to a home where his needs will be met and he will be happy. A dealer’s number one priority is someone buys the horse. The level of competence of the new owner and the life the horse will have is not their concern. Generally their knowledge of the horse & it’s history will be limited and as a buyer you need to take everything with a pinch of salt and view with your eyes wide open. I have to say I think people are being a touch unrealistic to think otherwise.
 
Going slightly off topic so apologies. But I think the whole British horse scene is in crisis.
@Upthecreek mentioned above quite rightly that many people need more lessons before purchasing anything. But there’s a distinct lack of decent riding schools due to insurance and rates going through the roof.
Then people don’t want to pay for lessons. Why pay £20-£45 upwards for 1 lesson when you can DIY cheaply and ride as much as you want.
There are a few decent dealers out there but they must get fed up of numpties turning up. I worked for a dealer for a while, we had all sorts of people turning up. One woman who hadn’t sat on a horse since being thrown off one onto a car 2 years previously. She had a panic attack on the poor cob she was trying out.
One woman returned a really nice Hunter we sold. Complained it was dangerous. It was sold as a hunter and it was fit. She only rode it once a week round the block and had it stabled the rest of the time with no turnout and wondered why it was loopy.

This leads onto another point about yards people are keeping horses on - I believe the way people are going to have to keep their horses is going to change. With all the miserable wet winters, turnout is going to be reduced and we’re going to see a lot more behavioural and physical problems.

There’s a whole market of Bin end dealers sell bin end horses to dozy people and make money.

I would buy from a dealer but I’m always wary that the riders showing them are generally very strong/good riders who do make the horses look good. The same goes for professional riders who sell horses on the side as well as competing. Very few of these horses are genuinely suited to amateurs and have a very narrow market as they aren’t talented enough for a pro and are too much for an amateur. It’s these horses that fall through the cracks also.
 
Ceifer said:
This leads onto another point about yards people are keeping horses on - I believe the way people are going to have to keep their horses is going to change. With all the miserable wet winters, turnout is going to be reduced and we’re going to see a lot more behavioural and physical problems.
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Personally I hope that yards are going to catch on to all weather surfaced turnouts to deal with wet winters and stocking crises. It's not great - I'd rather have a nice big field (and currently I do) but as pressure on the land increases, all weather pens seem like a better compromise than constant stabling.
 
Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:
Personally I hope that yards are going to catch on to all weather surfaced turnouts to deal with wet winters and stocking crises. It's not great - I'd rather have a nice big field (and currently I do) but as pressure on the land increases, all weather pens seem like a better compromise than constant stabling.
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You’re right,it would be better than nothing but not ideal. I see more yards relying on horse walkers too which is sad. I honestly think if it does fully go that way in winters I wouldn’t have another horse after my current one.
 
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