Buying unseen from the continent

[piebaldproblems]

(Before anyone says what a bad idea this is, I know - but owner of potential horse is very much recommended by one of my closest friends.) Could someone explain to me the logistics of this whole situation?

For starters, the vetting. COVID means I can’t attend - would it be better to use owner’s vet or to independently find a vet? In the later case, I’m worried that I wouldn’t be able to find someone to vouch for quality of vet (unless anyone here happens to be able to recommend a vet in Podkarpackie, Poland! And again for anyone in Poland, will it be possible to get a strangles test there?)

Payment wise, when do you pay and is it just with normal bank transfer?

Then, transport wise - any recommendations for companies that have been transporting during the Brexit situation? Also (here’s where I start sounding like a bit of a fool), will they also transport the passport and sales contract to me? And how would you even sign a sales contract if you never meet the owner? And does the transport company supply a headcollar?

Many thanks for any help, and please do let me know if I’ve forgotten anything!

 

[Arzada]

What attracts you to this horse so much that you would buy her/him unseen, unridden and put yourself in the stressful purchase scenario that you've described by buying from the continent?

 

[The Xmas Furry]

1. Vetting. Always use a different vet the the one the yard uses.
2. Sorry, cannot advise on vets in Poland. Get results emailed and faxed (yes, fax is still a thing) Sales contract too and a copy of all pages in passport.
3. Strangles, see 2.
4. Payment by CHAPS on day of collection.
5. Most international transporters have been back into Europe to import here since mid January. They will have to have passport with horse.
John Parker, EHB, John Lovett, and others will all provide quotes, be warned, import fees are now not cheap, not at all.
6. Seller should provide headcollar.

 

[shortstuff99]

Is he registered to an official breed studbook or a standard European passport as this will affect the VAT, blood tests and import fees you will need to pay.

VAT will be 20% of purchase price, plus an additional 10% if a gelding and then added veterinary requirements if a non registered equine. This has to be paid before delivery. The big transport companies can help sort this paperwork but may not make importing worth while.

 

[angel7]

Think horses also need coggins test for EIA, horse transporters can advise.
It would need to be a very special horse to make this a worthwhile venture....

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I bought unseen from Germany a few years back but will caveat that the horse in question was 6 months old so there was very little a viewing would tell me that a vetting wouldn’t, and he was at a price point that I was willing to write off if he turned out to be a total lost cause.

I was lucky enough to have a friend whose husband was stationed out that way and could advise on the best vet to use. For transport we used John Parker and payment was made via transferwise ahead of collection. We also ensured he was insured from the moment payment was made just in case something went wrong.

I briefly considered importing again when we were on the hunt for my new dancing partner but brexit has made it significantly more expensive these days.

 

[Winters100]

I am in Poland, not close to that location, but if you decide to go ahead PM me and I can ask my vet for recommendations in the area (he is one of the top equine vets in the country so should probably know someone). Depending upon the value of the horse you may even want to pay his fees to travel and do the vetting, I know he often travels internationally to treat horses, so it is certainly possible.

I also have a transporter who is very good. I have only used him in Poland / Germany, but he transported a couple of horses to the UK for a friend a couple of years ago. I would guess however that they are not familiar with the situation regarding Brexit, so you may want to use a larger UK company to be sure.

Headcollar for sure won't be a problem. If you want to order protectors or anything else for the transport gnl.pl is based here and has an english version of their website, you could just order from there and have it delivered to seller. Passport goes with the horse, you could ask seller if they will accept pdf of the contract or just send by courier (I usually use DHL)

Another option for buying things is allegro.pl. Only in Polish but headcollar is 'kantar dla konia' and transport protectors 'Ochraniacze transportowe dla konia'. If you want any type of rug it is 'derka dla konia'.

I'm afraid I could never recommend buying unseen, but if you are really sure that your friend is right about the horse I can probably point you in the right direction regarding logistics.

 

[Winters100]

PS, if you have received both vaccinations you can travel to Poland and attend the vetting without quarantine, your only problems would be on returning to the uk. Of course these rules can change at any time.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

Just in terms of a transporter, I can highly recommend John Parkers International Transport. They arranged all the paperwork for us and transported our four from the UK to here, last year. Absolutely no fuss at all and all arrived in beautiful, calm condition.

 

[Winters100]

Just in terms of a transporter, I can highly recommend John Parkers International Transport. They arranged all the paperwork for us and transported our four from the UK to here, last year. Absolutely no fuss at all and all arrived in beautiful, calm condition.

Seconded. We used them some years ago to bring 4 horses from the UK and we were very happy with them.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Going to third the recommendation for John Parkers International Transport.

 

[Lady Jane]

Think horses also need coggins test for EIA, horse transporters can advise.
It would need to be a very special horse to make this a worthwhile venture....

What is a coggins test?

 

[The Xmas Furry]

What is a coggins test?

It's for EIA, prevalent in parts of Europe.

 

[Winters100]

Could you really not come to try the horse? Fly to Krakow and rent a car, would be quite easy. I believe that recreational travel is now allowed in the UK?

I assume it is competing at quite a high level if you are considering this. If you would like to PM me the details I can check among my circle what is known about the horse and the sellers.

I don't mean to sound negative but it does sound to me as if you are taking a big risk, even with a recommendation from a friend.

 

[Winters100]

1. Vetting. Always use a different vet the the one the yard uses.
2. Sorry, cannot advise on vets in Poland. Get results emailed and faxed (yes, fax is still a thing) Sales contract too and a copy of all pages in passport.
3. Strangles, see 2.
4. Payment by CHAPS on day of collection.
5. Most international transporters have been back into Europe to import here since mid January. They will have to have passport with horse.
John Parker, EHB, John Lovett, and others will all provide quotes, be warned, import fees are now not cheap, not at all.
6. Seller should provide headcollar.

Good advice, but just one point that CHAPS is UK only, you will need to use SWIFT to make payment, and to agree in the contract whether the horse can be moved upon evidence of bank order or upon receipt of payment. If you have only a GBP account this may take a few days.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Good advice, but just one point that CHAPS is UK only, you will need to use SWIFT to make payment, and to agree in the contract whether the horse can be moved upon evidence of bank order or upon receipt of payment. If you have only a GBP account this may take a few days.

Of course, my brain was still on work mode, I'm typing chaps to everything at present lol, roll on the end of this stamp duty holiday thus week, it's been bonkers!

 

[wills_91]

Is he registered to an official breed studbook or a standard European passport as this will affect the VAT, blood tests and import fees you will need to pay.

VAT will be 20% of purchase price, plus an additional 10% if a gelding and then added veterinary requirements if a non registered equine. This has to be paid before delivery. The big transport companies can help sort this paperwork but may not make importing worth while.

Why the additional 10% for a gelding??!

 

[shortstuff99]

Why the additional 10% for a gelding??!

I can't quite remember off the top of my head but it is to do with breeding stock, and geldings can't breed.

 

[Casey76]

I got a quote from JP to transport from eastern France to Wales for 1 pony - £2500, and that was in 2019.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

I got a quote from JP to transport from eastern France to Wales for 1 pony - £2500, and that was in 2019.

Potentially that’s a dedicated load price. we could have spaces on a shared load with JP and it was around £1,000 ish plus vets fees & paperwork for each partition (1,000ish miles and ferry) but we opted for dedicated transport and it came to around £8,000 (For four), that included ministry vets fees, paperwork, a two night stay at their yard in UK, an overnight stay in Germany and fees for the wagon to enter Denmark. Worth every penny, especially as one of ours was 30yrs old at the time.

 

[Peglo]

Hi, newish to the forum but been getting great advice from you all.
I just bought a haflinger mare unseen from Italy in April. (My covid crises) luckily the dealers sorted all the paperwork to send her over so can’t really help with that bit. They use John Parker international and they sorted the import/export tax stuff so I just had to pay the 20%. Everything went really smoothly (although I’m not going to lie, I was slightly worried about my money until I seen a horse come off the boat.)
As for paying money, I payed a deposit (half) to secure the sale and then after the vet check I payed the other half and she was picked up the next day. I just used a bank transfer although went into branch to set it up first time as thought they might flag up anything obviously dodgy. Had a nightmare with my second payment and the bank locking me out of my online banking twice but got there.
I would never tell anyone to buy a horse blind but so far my little mare has been such a joy and so pleased I panicked bought and within 2 weeks went from my 2 old girls to having bought a 3rd and arrived home way up north, UK.
I had been looking in the uk for a horse for a while and the prices were just mental, even for what I wanted. I always wanted another Haflinger so with prices so high I went for it. I don’t know what it was about this mare but I fell in love with her and glad I went with my heart… but not again ?
I should add a insured her with NF mutual the day of pick up and that covered her travel over.

 

[Palindrome]

I bought unseen from the UK, a 8 months old filly. I don't regret it at all, she is now a superb rising 4. For the vetting it's better to use another vet but not necessarily doable. Buying unseen like that you have to trust the seller not to disapear with your money.

For the payment I did a bank transfer, the contract was sent by e-mail. The passport traveled with the horse and the seller supplied the headcollar and lead rope.

For transport I would only use Parkers. I have used them twice and always got excellent service. I used another company (ETA) once and my mare arrived exhausted and had bumped her head.

 

[jessss1993]

I recently bought over a 3yo warmblood from Holland unseen so can try and answer best I can. It was a new experience for me.

I used an independent vet, registered with FEI. Had to pay a little bit more for their travel as they were not hugely local but it was worth it for my piece of mind. Horse also had full back, legs, neck x-rays (paid for by the breeders - which is common on the continent so make sure they have them done) which I got Rossdales (my vet at home) to look over.

I paid a deposit ago hold her and then full amount when the transporter arrived to get her. Did the transfer through a site called TrasnferWise as I got a much better conversion rate from GBP to Euros.

Transport wise - I used NagCabs. They were so great. They do all the paperwork for you. It is quite a long process, you have to register with UK-GOV and get an EORI number pre-transportation. Then they sort out the details when they bring them across. I paid the VAT (20% of purchase price) as soon as she arrived in England. I had sent across a sales contract which they signed and returned. Make sure it includes "This Agreement shall be governed by the law of England. In the event of dispute, the matter shall be governed by English law and shall be heard and determined in England" to cover yourself. The transport company bought the sales contract, and passport across with them. The breeders gave a head collar and a rug for her to travel in. For shared transport it would have been £700 + VAT, I paid a bit more as bought her over by herself.

The only other thing I would say is I got a letter 4 weeks after importation from the government wanting me to prove I purchased what I said I had. Had to send a copy of passport, sales invoice, vet certificates etc so make sure you hold onto everything!!

Another thing, insurance companies do not start covering the horse for illness until 2 weeks after you have started your policy. I wish I had known this as I would have waited that 2 weeks and paid livery in Holland because there is always the chance on long journeys the horse can get travel sickness, colic etc and if I did it again I would definitely wait so the horse was covered.

It all worked out really well for me, I have a lovely mare who has been a dream to back and start producing. And even with transport and VAT I spent less than I would have if I had bought her as a 3/4yo here in the current UK market. I would maybe a little more cautious of a horse that is a bit older as it is a lot harder to fix problems than start a horse from scratch.

Any more questions just let me know!

 

[piebaldproblems]

Could you really not come to try the horse? Fly to Krakow and rent a car, would be quite easy. I believe that recreational travel is now allowed in the UK?

I assume it is competing at quite a high level if you are considering this. If you would like to PM me the details I can check among my circle what is known about the horse and the sellers.

I don't mean to sound negative but it does sound to me as if you are taking a big risk, even with a recommendation from a friend.

I’m in a region with a lot of Delta variant cases and have only had one vaccination so wouldn’t feel comfortable travelling atm. Not a particularly fancy horse, but a breed very close to my heart (Śląski typ szlachetny) as grandparents used to breed them. Am now starting to think that it might be a better idea to wait a few more months to when things have died down and hopefully travel gets a little cheaper. (And thank you by the way for your posts - super helpful and will definitely PM you if I decide to go ahead with this.)

I can't quite remember off the top of my head but it is to do with breeding stock, and geldings can't breed.

Curious. I would have thought it’d be the other way round, that you pay more for stallions + mares.

 

[piebaldproblems]

I recently bought over a 3yo warmblood from Holland unseen so can try and answer best I can. It was a new experience for me.

I used an independent vet, registered with FEI. Had to pay a little bit more for their travel as they were not hugely local but it was worth it for my piece of mind. Horse also had full back, legs, neck x-rays (paid for by the breeders - which is common on the continent so make sure they have them done) which I got Rossdales (my vet at home) to look over.

I paid a deposit ago hold her and then full amount when the transporter arrived to get her. Did the transfer through a site called TrasnferWise as I got a much better conversion rate from GBP to Euros.

Transport wise - I used NagCabs. They were so great. They do all the paperwork for you. It is quite a long process, you have to register with UK-GOV and get an EORI number pre-transportation. Then they sort out the details when they bring them across. I paid the VAT (20% of purchase price) as soon as she arrived in England. I had sent across a sales contract which they signed and returned. Make sure it includes "This Agreement shall be governed by the law of England. In the event of dispute, the matter shall be governed by English law and shall be heard and determined in England" to cover yourself. The transport company bought the sales contract, and passport across with them. The breeders gave a head collar and a rug for her to travel in. For shared transport it would have been £700 + VAT, I paid a bit more as bought her over by herself.

The only other thing I would say is I got a letter 4 weeks after importation from the government wanting me to prove I purchased what I said I had. Had to send a copy of passport, sales invoice, vet certificates etc so make sure you hold onto everything!!

Another thing, insurance companies do not start covering the horse for illness until 2 weeks after you have started your policy. I wish I had known this as I would have waited that 2 weeks and paid livery in Holland because there is always the chance on long journeys the horse can get travel sickness, colic etc and if I did it again I would definitely wait so the horse was covered.

It all worked out really well for me, I have a lovely mare who has been a dream to back and start producing. And even with transport and VAT I spent less than I would have if I had bought her as a 3/4yo here in the current UK market. I would maybe a little more cautious of a horse that is a bit older as it is a lot harder to fix problems than start a horse from scratch.

Any more questions just let me know!

Thank you for this, super useful and gives me some hope!

 

[Peglo]

I’m in a region with a lot of Delta variant cases and have only had one vaccination so wouldn’t feel comfortable travelling atm. Not a particularly fancy horse, but a breed very close to my heart (Śląski typ szlachetny) as grandparents used to breed them. Am now starting to think that it might be a better idea to wait a few more months to when things have died down and hopefully travel gets a little cheaper. (And thank you by the way for your posts - super helpful and will definitely PM you if I decide to go ahead with this.)



Curious. I would have thought it’d be the other way round, that you pay more for stallions + mares.

I didn’t have to pay the 10% for my mare but wasn’t 100% sure if it was because she was a purebred haflinger mare or just a mare.

 

[Winters100]

I’m in a region with a lot of Delta variant cases and have only had one vaccination so wouldn’t feel comfortable travelling atm. Not a particularly fancy horse, but a breed very close to my heart (Śląski typ szlachetny) as grandparents used to breed them. Am now starting to think that it might be a better idea to wait a few more months to when things have died down and hopefully travel gets a little cheaper. (And thank you by the way for your posts - super helpful and will definitely PM you if I decide to go ahead with this.)
.

Honestly I think that waiting might be a better idea. You could then come to Poland, try this horse and others, and have a vet on standby to do the necessary checks if you find one you like.

I would also not be happy to travel now with only one vaccine. Back in January I had to travel without any vaccine due to a family emergency, and it was very worrying. It also meant that upon returning home I had to isolate in our 'granny flat' and could only see the rest of the family through closed windows Not something that I would want to repeat.

I have no experience of this breed, but as I understand they are easy to come by, especially in Silesia,. The market here for recreational horses is not hot, so I don't think you will have a problem finding something.