buying unseen -WDYT ?

A knowledgeable friend bought a horse unseen from a dealer in Southern Ireland. He made it very easy, organised transport, etc. When it arrived it was extremely nervous (had been describedas a 'dope on a rope') and unhandled. It also had sarcoids on its thighs and sheath. There had been no mention of sarcoids even though she had specifically asked, and she refused to accept it. It went back with him and a week later she saw it on the horse auction site, again described as quiet and no mention of sarcoids
 
stormox said:
No because once the new owner finds out they are sick lame or unrideable they sell them on or swap them back with the dealer.
Who wants to keep a sick lame or dangerous horse? They shouldnt have been sold they should be put down by 'the owner who couldnt cope'. (I am not talking about people who overhorse themselves here).
And an awful lot of these horses do come from unscrupulous dealers - just read the dodgy dealer sites and see!!!
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I dont think the person you quoted does that?? I didnt do that. Lots of other people dont do that. I'm pretty sure the person you quoted meant lose as in PTS if you cant get it right, not lose as in sell it on at a loss.

Yes of course people should take responsibility for their knackered horses, but they dont and quite a lot of them are very easy fixes. Mine was. Equally he would have been quietly PTS had he not been fixable and there was a very real limit on both time and money that would have been spent to get to that stage. I also viewed mine as he was about 40mins away. Had he been a few hours away I'd have taken him unseen.

You only hear the bad stories on the DD pages, and of course there are more than a few. Theres a lot of success stories as well that you just never hear of.
 
No I didn't mean the person I quoted. I just meant in general. There will be good and bad from most dealers. But if people get mis sold a horse from a dealer, and that has more chance of happening if you buy unseen that if you see and test drive it, they should return it and claim their money back otherwise you are helping these dodgy dealers can afford flash cars and big houses. And definately beware of buying from ireland or anywhere abroad unseen. It's much harder to make a cross border claim against them.
 
I bought my mare unseen from DD (Don't kill me lol) but I was going through a bipolar manic phase, and bought her on impulse. I got lucky, she is my pony of a lifetime. I wouldn't recommend it though
 
Leo Walker said:
How? I'll bet these horses arent actually coming from bin end dealers but are instead coming from private homes that cant cope. Therefore stopping the bin end dealers buying them and misselling them. A win on very level surely?
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I have done exactly that - bought from private homes that have overhorsed themselves, re-schooled and educated the horse and turned it into a mannerly delight that could be appropriately sold to a good home. Usually takes time to fix what the numpty has done, which is why a good dealer would specifically not be interested in taking such a horse on, as it massively reduces their profit.
 
I sort of have. Paid a hefty deposit on a weanling in the June of one year. Breeder said she wanted her with her dam a bit longer.. fair enough, not a problem at all. Then she made another excuse, and another culminating in the story that the breed society had 'lost' all the paperwork and it would be well after Christmas before we could have her. 8 months after paying the deposit and nop pony began to ring alarm bells despite the fact I had known the breeder (over the internet) for several years. We came to the unwilling conclusion that either the breeder didn't want us to have her or that the pony was never hers to sell and she had sent pics of a random pony somewhere.

Did we get the deposit back? Hell no.

Never again.
 
stormox said:
No because once the new owner finds out they are sick lame or unrideable they sell them on or swap them back with the dealer.
!!!
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Do they? I’d shoot it, if I got one that needed it.

Or of course fix it if possible (done that twice both times vetted and viewed in person!)

Most of the time these cheap horses are not lame sick or unrideable, they have just had the misfortune to have been bought by someone very novicey or nervous and have taken over. The worst one I bought (lame and mental) was fixed in 3 weeks mentally and 3 months physically and has been one of the most talented show jumpers and all rounders I’ve had the pleasure of owning. I’d put money on her reverting to being an idiot in the wrong hands tho, would that make her, me or them dodgy cos I’d say it’s the handler not the horse if you can sort it that quickly!
 
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FfionWinnie said:
Do they? I’d shoot it, if I got one that needed it.

Or of course fix it if possible (done that twice both times vetted and viewed in person!)

Most of the time these cheap horses are not lame sick or unrideable, they have just had the misfortune to have been bought by someone very novicey or nervous and have taken over. The worst one I bought (lame and mental) was fixed in 3 weeks mentally and 3 months physically and has been one of the most talented show jumpers and all rounders I’ve had the pleasure of owning. I’d put money on her reverting to being an idiot in the wrong hands tho, would that make her, me or them dodgy cos I’d say it’s the handler not the horse if you can sort it that quickly!
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Similar story to my current one although his issues were mainly pain making him be an arse, which had made people handle him badly, which made him worse. Hes now the best horse I have ever owned and has repaid me a thousand times over for taking a chance on him. Hes a total superstar and can be handled and driven by anyone. He would walk through fire if I asked him to.

There was a brief period of time where it looked like he might have had an unfixable problem and in that case he'd have been PTS. Or more likely turned away to grass as by that point I'd gotten attached to him. He would never have been sold on, and even now wont be. I'd have him PTS rather than pass him on and let him end up in the wrong hands.

He looks a bit different as well:

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Hes not the first I've bought in that sort of state and almost certainly wont be the last. I'd rather buy them cheap and sort them out than pay a fortune and still have to sort them out. I like to give them an upgrade in life.

Idiots will always buy cheap horses because they are cheap and they either cant or dont want to afford them. They do this in person and unseen. They can usually be seen with 2 yr old colts or thin, lame ex racers looking for cheap livery. They are the ones that when it all goes horribly wrong or they run out of money, then pass them on without a thought to what will happen long term.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Do they? I’d shoot it, if I got one that needed it.

Or of course fix it if possible (done that twice both times vetted and viewed in person!)
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But lot of people do just sell on. You only have to go to Derby Beeston York Melton etc etc to see that there are plenty of lame/problem/ancient horses there. I have only recently become aware of how novicy the majority of people are these days and would be unable to school on a horse that needed it. Also a lot of fluffy bunnies wouldn't shoot their old sick horse. They try to find it a forever home, which makes them easily got hold of by unscrupulous dealers. There is a dealer near me that buys horses from the local knacker man. They then get sold often unseen, on the auction site. Nothing illegal- except there was usually a reason for horses being with the knacker man in the first place so they are hardly ' fit for purpose' as riding horses.
 
Leo Walker said:
Similar story to my current one although his issues were mainly pain making him be an arse, which had made people handle him badly, which made him worse. Hes now the best horse I have ever owned and has repaid me a thousand times over for taking a chance on him. Hes a total superstar and can be handled and driven by anyone. He would walk through fire if I asked him to.

There was a brief period of time where it looked like he might have had an unfixable problem and in that case he'd have been PTS. Or more likely turned away to grass as by that point I'd gotten attached to him. He would never have been sold on, and even now wont be. I'd have him PTS rather than pass him on and let him end up in the wrong hands.

He looks a bit different as well:

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Hes not the first I've bought in that sort of state and almost certainly wont be the last. I'd rather buy them cheap and sort them out than pay a fortune and still have to sort them out. I like to give them an upgrade in life.

Idiots will always buy cheap horses because they are cheap and they either cant or dont want to afford them. They do this in person and unseen. They can usually be seen with 2 yr old colts or thin, lame ex racers looking for cheap livery. They are the ones that when it all goes horribly wrong or they run out of money, then pass them on without a thought to what will happen long term.
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See now you are very naughty posting pictures like this!! Just as I convince myself I dont need a little gypsy cob to 'save/rescue' and turn into a driving pony someone like you comes along and posts gorgous pics of a cob driving ... you are not playing fair ;)
 
Antw23uk said:
See now you are very naughty posting pictures like this!! Just as I convince myself I dont need a little gypsy cob to 'save/rescue' and turn into a driving pony someone like you comes along and posts gorgous pics of a cob driving ... you are not playing fair ;)
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Oh, Ant, as an absolute convert myself, I can assure you that everyone needs a Gypsy Cob in their lives
 
stormox said:
I dont think that is the right attitude. You are actually encouraging dodgy dealers to sell sick or lame or unrideable horses to the gullible and the 'I can afford to lose' brigade, just lining the pockets of the unscrupulous.
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stormox said:
No because once the new owner finds out they are sick lame or unrideable they sell them on or swap them back with the dealer.
Who wants to keep a sick lame or dangerous horse? They shouldnt have been sold they should be put down by 'the owner who couldnt cope'. (I am not talking about people who overhorse themselves here).
And an awful lot of these horses do come from unscrupulous dealers - just read the dodgy dealer sites and see!!!
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I think you misunderstood my meaning of "don't buy what you can't afford to lose" im neither gullible nor inexperienced
I have never bought from a dealer (although that's not to say I wouldnt) I like to buy cheap projects either unbroken or from people who have over horsed themselves or totally mismanaged the horse/pony, its usually pretty easy to work out with a quick phone call to owner rather just message, sometimes it's as simple as the wrong tack, lack of turn out or too much feed that results in a horse being unfairly labeled crazy BUT if the cheap project ended up being dangerous or extensive health issues then it would just be PTS, NOT passed on and certainly not to a dealer
 
Antw23uk said:
See now you are very naughty posting pictures like this!! Just as I convince myself I dont need a little gypsy cob to 'save/rescue' and turn into a driving pony someone like you comes along and posts gorgous pics of a cob driving ... you are not playing fair ;)
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Get one :) I've had a few similar types before but of them all hes the best. Everyone who drives him grins from ear to ear while they do it. Hes just such incredible fun!
 
stormox said:
But lot of people do just sell on. You only have to go to Derby Beeston York Melton etc etc to see that there are plenty of lame/problem/ancient horses there.
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This has always happened. They used to go to the meat man but theres no real market there anymore. Theres always been idiots buying horses and there always will be. More of them are viewed than bought unseen.
 
rowan666 said:
I think you misunderstood my meaning of "don't buy what you can't afford to lose" im neither gullible nor inexperienced
I have never bought from a dealer (although that's not to say I wouldnt) I like to buy cheap projects either unbroken or from people who have over horsed themselves or totally mismanaged the horse/pony, its usually pretty easy to work out with a quick phone call to owner rather just message, sometimes it's as simple as the wrong tack, lack of turn out or too much feed that results in a horse being unfairly labeled crazy BUT if the cheap project ended up being dangerous or extensive health issues then it would just be PTS, NOT passed on and certainly not to a dealer
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I also am experienced and professional and have often done the same. But what I am saying is a lot- in fact I would say the majority- of cheap horse buyers arent. A lot of cheap horses are actually bought as 'first horses' - see other threads on the subject. A lot of these are bought from dealers who post pretty pictures as 1st time buyers think they are the obvious place to start looking. These are the ones that end up being returned or swapped and end up for sale on the auction site with no mention of their problems hoping to attract unseen buyers.
Especially if they can attract unseen buyers from another area or country. Less chance of a comeback.
 
Leo Walker said:
You wont ever stop this. Too many people realise you can keep a horse on a cheap yard for less than the cost of lesson. Its nothing to do with buying them unseen though.
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It is really because if someone looking to buy a first horse or schoolmaster actually goes and sees and tries the horse, especially if they take someone knowledgeable, they are more likely to suss out its not for them than if they buy unseen and believe what the dealer says in the advert. Videos and word pictures can give a totally false view. And definately don't buy unseen from too far away to return it, or another country, if you are a 1st time buyer or a novice.
 
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Have a look at some of the stories on Meadow Stud. Dodgy dealers find ways to pull the wool over novices eyes, even when they do the right thing and have a vetting!
 
stormox said:
I have just been reading through posts on facebook sites.

A few comments made me think 'would I buy unseen' and the answer is no.

But it seems a lot of people think differently. Some of the comments are:
From dealers on adverts 'honestly described to the unseen buyer'........ 'includes transport. No money due until delivered'.........'no viewing necessary. Buy unseen with confidence'...

From buyers 'Its a different world now. Most people buy unseen'........ 'Every time Ive arranged to view a horse the seller has messaged me its sold to an unseen buyer'......'I bought unseen from xxxx and the horse is a bit greener than described but fine'........ and there are also some dissatisfied unseen buyers too!!

Is buying unseen really that common?Are people these days too lazy to go and look? Too short of time? Just gamblers at heart?
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No I would not buy unseen not with a horse or pony - to much of a minefield, would not spend hard earn cash without seeing the horse first, making sure I liked it's temperament and the way it moves and the way it rides. (if young). Too many dodgy people to take the risk with something I want to ride and compete on - known a few people who did and they ended up with a lemon or a horse which was resold after it was supposed to be PTS. One friend broke her back on a horse she bought unseen from a woman in Lincoln, she is now in a wheelchair.
 
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JJS said:
Oh, Ant, as an absolute convert myself, I can assure you that everyone needs a Gypsy Cob in their lives
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I will pass on one (for myself as they are not my cup of tea) we have had a few pass through here, so far 1 out of three was a nice horse, the other two(one current) chased the existing horses all the time, caused two to need a vet due to kicking both horses (non stop chasing for 20 minutes). Now the new one also doing this (my boy done his tendon in due to being continuously chased,) also ran after the Andalusian and went to bite him and grabbed his rug and ripped the whole length of it, owner not pleased.

I know there are some nice ones, so why can't we have some of those
 
If you’re going to get done you’re going to get done. Unseen doesn’t mean you are going to get done and a viewing and a vetting doesn’t mean you’re safe.

I don’t think I have just been “lucky”. Even the best dodgy video has tells if you know what you’re looking for!
 
FfionWinnie said:
If you’re going to get done you’re going to get done. Unseen doesn’t mean you are going to get done and a viewing and a vetting doesn’t mean you’re safe.
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It doesnt mean you are safe. Correct. But it does mean you are safer. Obviously a video etc, talking face to face with dealer, and viewing and vetting can eliminate more horses than just a video and the dealers written advert alone.
 
FfionWinnie said:
If you’re going to get done you’re going to get done. Unseen doesn’t mean you are going to get done and a viewing and a vetting doesn’t mean you’re safe.

I don’t think I have just been “lucky”. Even the best dodgy video has tells if you know what you’re looking for!
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True but at least when you view it you can check on many things including


what it is like in the field with others
what it is like to catch in and turnout
tie up and stand while your looking at it and grooming
what it is like to tack up
pick feet out
handle in general
watch it ridden
check for any surface problems like sarcoids
growths
what it is like to lead around
see if it spooky when ridden as some say not spooky and they are
see what it is like jumping
watch owner riding it about and then you or your trainer ride it
hack out if necessary
trot up to see if lame
see the home it is in and how it has been treated
see if head shy or bridle shy
ask many questions to the owner in person
what it is like in the stable being handled or groomed
if food aggression is an issue
and more................
 
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WeeLassie said:
It doesnt mean you are safe. Correct. But it does mean you are safer. Obviously a video etc, talking face to face with dealer, and viewing and vetting can eliminate more horses than just a video and the dealers written advert alone.
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Playing it safe is over rated for me. I don’t care if you don’t want to do it no one is trying to convince you to think it’s a good idea, but I bought all these horses from videos (or less - 2 from a couple of pics) and they have all exceeded my expectations from the advert. Life would be a lot less pleasurable without having had them in it.

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And 4 others I don’t have time to put pics up of.
 
Thats fair enough Fionwinnie. You are obviously extremely experienced and well able to school a horse into what you want if it isnt already. Also by your own admission you are good at sussing out a horse from a video.
But some of these dealers try to take advantage of 1st time buyers and novices, especially if they are wanting an experienced horse or schoolmaster, a lot of which are older horses or ones that have a lot of work done. These horses are more likely to have problems (arthritis, wear and tear etc) than a youngster.
These people are MUCH more likely to be mis sold a horse if they buy unseen, rather than go along, look, try, and question. Also they should get it vetted and take someone experienced. This definately lessens the chance of buying a dud.
 
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WeeLassie said:
These people are MUCH more likely to be mis sold a horse if they buy unseen, rather than go along, look, try, and question. Also they should get it vetted and take someone experienced. This definately lessens the chance of buying a dud.
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They arent though. Its buying cheap that seems to be the common theme, although I'm not even sure thats true to be fair. Depends how you define cheap. As I posted earlier go and read some of the dodgy dealer pages. Post after post after post, mainly from people who viewed and a fair few who had a vetting as well.

Do you know how easy it is to settle down something with issues or mask lameness? Very! Thats why they do it and get away with it.
 
Leo Walker said:
They arent though. Its buying cheap that seems to be the common theme, although I'm not even sure thats true to be fair. Depends how you define cheap. As I posted earlier go and read some of the dodgy dealer pages. Post after post after post, mainly from people who viewed and a fair few who had a vetting as well.

Do you know how easy it is to settle down something with issues or mask lameness? Very! Thats why they do it and get away with it.
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Trying to buy a cheap horse is a common theme and many first time buyers set out with a totally unrealistic budget as well as a frequently over inflated idea of their own ability, the dealers do tend to target them by advertising "the perfect first horse" "ideal for a novice" etc., going to look will probably make little difference as they have no real idea of what they should be looking for, the "experienced friend" is almost as clueless and at the price they want to pay they are going to be taking a risk one way or another.

If people started to place a higher value on first horses, if the novice buyer was better advised and not, as often the case, trying to buy as it is cheaper than having lessons then the market would change but for now dealers will continue to sell unsuitable horses at low prices and get away with it.

I think when the prices are higher the quality will be better and the risk reduced to an extent, I know someone, not a novice but not very confident, who bought 2 from the same dealer unseen, the first was way smaller than required and extremely green, it stayed and was loaned/ sold, the second was far greener than described as well as being too small, it went back and nearly 12 months later she got her money back, they were both not as described in their way of going, were about a hand smaller, were basically nice sound horses that needed at least 6 months work to get them to being what they were sold as, not everyone has the time, confidence or experience to put into these horses, the better dealers can make something look good on a video when in reality it can barely trot in a straight line.
 
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