luckyoldme
Well-Known Member
Judging by what I see day to day...yes.
Or maybe it's just that there are a lot more people on the road and a lot more things for them to do while they are driving
C1 License consultation....please sign!
- Thread starter Melody Grey
- Start date
Or maybe it's just that there are a lot more people on the road and a lot more things for them to do while they are driving
View
Well-Known Member
This.
Traffic conditions have changed, the car test has changed, too many car drivers are focussed on anything except what they should be.
In the past week, four of my drivers have been involved in non fault collisions due to the actions of car drivers - and a further five collisions were avoided due to the professional driving of my drivers.
The standard of car driving Around London is worse than it was three years ago on average.
I do not support giving B test holders C1 rights without training.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I've done the survey but I came off the fence I was on, put myself back in the cab the first time I ever drove a 7.5t vehicle, and relived how completely shocked I was that I was allowed to do it. There is twice as much traffic on the roads now as there was then, and I don't think it's right to drive a vehicle that big without professional training how to do it.
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Keith_Beef
Novice equestrian, accomplished equichetrian
I believe that to drive for reward you need both the licence to drive the vehicle and an additional certificate of competency that needs to be regularly renewed (every year? every third year?).
SantaVera
Well-Known Member
I wont sign, I think people need to take the test. Its a safety issue.
scruffyponies
Well-Known Member
This, exactly. We have actual statistics. If we limit people's rights, it should be on the basis of evidence, and in this case it doesn't stack up.
I have grandfather rights, and have had a 7.5 tonne in the past. I think there's an argument for a commercial test, but horse-boxes are driven VERY carefully... doubly so if the driver has not had the lorry long. Totally different for multi-drop delivery against targets.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I know a man who uses a 7.5t to carry his racing car to meetings. Should he take a test? Because he certainly doesn't drive as carefully as a person with a live cargo on board. How about one I know converted to a wild camping van? If so, should we/how do we distinguish between those lorries and a horse lorry, they look pretty much the same from the outside?
IME horseboxes are only driven really carefully when they have a horse on board. They are often driven without (to pick up a horse, to a garage, to pick up food, to help a friend move house, because the engine needs a run ...) so I'm not sure the careful driving argument really stacks up.
The trouble with the stats is (I'd be interested to see them) that at the same time period when there is no recorded fall in accidents (if that's what the stats show), the amount of traffic on the road was going up and up and up. So accidents should have been expected to rise. If they didn't, then that might well indicate that the training has been successful.
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Melody Grey
Well-Known Member
I would be interested to learn whether there are any safety stats for the B+E trailer test being taken away- maybe it’s to early to tell? I appreciate a trailer and 7.5t are different, but still an example where something has been recently reformed.
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
When i got my 7.5, i chose to have a lesson even though i didn't need to and so glad i did. While i had it, 2 friends wanted to borrow it. I suggested they have a practice first. One was used to a trailer was very confident and borrowed it several times before getting her own. The other who'd hired 3.5t a lot, was very shocked at how different it felt and decided she'd stick to small horseboxes.
However both were older so at a time in life where they weren't risk takers and knew their limits. Would an 18 year old be as cautious.
The problem with stats is that it was a gradual change. The entitlement stayed on licences so even after the rules changed, there were people driving 7.5 who hadn't passed a tesr. There may be someone in their 50s about to drive a lorry for the first time.
Even if you tried to break down incidents to people who had taken a test and those who hadn't, the age difference means that the older people with grandfather rights have been driving longer and are possibly more experienced than the people who had to take a test.
You'd have to be very careful about how you analysed the statistics.
However both were older so at a time in life where they weren't risk takers and knew their limits. Would an 18 year old be as cautious.
The problem with stats is that it was a gradual change. The entitlement stayed on licences so even after the rules changed, there were people driving 7.5 who hadn't passed a tesr. There may be someone in their 50s about to drive a lorry for the first time.
Even if you tried to break down incidents to people who had taken a test and those who hadn't, the age difference means that the older people with grandfather rights have been driving longer and are possibly more experienced than the people who had to take a test.
You'd have to be very careful about how you analysed the statistics.
ROG
Well-Known Member
I have done some FREE training for those with 7.5 grandfather rights and it was a horsebox
EX LGV instructor
EX LGV instructor
View
Well-Known Member
Then please respond and state your views.
ponynutz
Well-Known Member
I know my Dad wouldn't trust me to drive the 7.5tonne lorry even though he himself has grandad rights.
Sorry, I think with more people being on the road (and therefore more idiots) there needs to be at least something in place to get people to take lessons ESPECIALLY where horses are concerned - not just your life you're driving down the M6.
Will complete and air views but I think grandad rights are a thing of a past given the difference in the roads and the B test. I've just completed my B test and even getting into a 4x4 Mazda compared to my Mini Cooper was a shock and I was terrified bc I didn't know how big I was, especially when getting myself out of situations others driving got me into. Can't imagine doing it in any lorry.
Sorry, I think with more people being on the road (and therefore more idiots) there needs to be at least something in place to get people to take lessons ESPECIALLY where horses are concerned - not just your life you're driving down the M6.
Will complete and air views but I think grandad rights are a thing of a past given the difference in the roads and the B test. I've just completed my B test and even getting into a 4x4 Mazda compared to my Mini Cooper was a shock and I was terrified bc I didn't know how big I was, especially when getting myself out of situations others driving got me into. Can't imagine doing it in any lorry.
bluehorse
Well-Known Member
I’m completely on the fence about this. I have grandfather rights and I’ve driven my own 7.5t lorries for years now. I’ve just downsized and bought my first 3.5t, frankly driving it with the horse on board scares me to death but that’s another story. When I got my first lorry I got a few tips from my friend (who also had grandfather rights but took lessons first) and practised practised practised until I was comfortable with how the lorry handled and that I could drive it well enough to put a horse in it. I think what we have to remember here is that horsebox drivers are probably amongst the most cautious of road users. But also I recognise there are a lot of people without a brain in their head that are not responsible road users regardless of what they’ve got on board or what vehicle they’re driving. I worked as a supermarket delivery driver during the pandemic and had to do an online and practical driving assessment. In my area I was the highest scoring out of my group, the highest scoring woman they’d ever had, and one of the highest scoring overall. My practical driving assessor was an ex traffic policeman and he said there was a thing or two I could teach all the supermarket’s drivers. Interestingly he asked me quite a lot of detail around what horse box drivers have to consider in relation to travelling horses (basically why do we travel so slowly!). Sadly though i think we always have to cater for the lowest common denominator. Roads are busier, people are more in a rush, and everyone is far more entitled as a road user than they were maybe even 10 years ago. My last 7.5t lorry was written off by a total tw*t in a commercial 3.5t who was speeding on the wrong side of the road. Head on collision with my horse in the back. I know whose driving was better that day. I also think towing a trailer is far harder than driving a 7.5t and actually I do think you should have to pass a test to tow. That was a longer answer than I intended and didn’t really conclude anything ?
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Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Quite. I can never get my ahead around the fact that whilst I am not allowed to drive a 7.5t legally, my aged great aunt is.
Passing your test before 1997 does not make you a better driver.
spotty_pony
...
I’ve recently got my class 2 and as I was too young to be able to drive a 7.5 tonne on a car license I can now drive a normal horsebox too. There is no way anybody should be allowed to drive one without doing a test - there is so much more to it than just getting in and driving like a car!
moosea
Well-Known Member
Yes that is what I am saying.
Perhaps modern cars that make driving so easy and the changes to the driving test such as removing some manouvers have played a role in this.
But there are a lot of really awfull drivers out there.
I think that there is also an argument that others, not just other drivers but all other 'road' users should have a right to know that people in charge of any vehicle have had at least some basic training in how to operate it.
If a riding school taught people to ride out hacking we would all be horiffied and say that they should teach them the basics before going onto the roads. Yet it's ok to do exactly that with a 7.5 ton lorry???
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
I've always been a careful tower, but I've seen far too many loaded horse boxes and trailers flying along far too fast, bouncing over potholes, not slowing for roundabouts and snaking. Idiot drivers.
Just a few days after chatting to somone who was bewailing how bad her horse was to load, I happened to end up driving behind her as she was towing her horse on a A road. She was hurtling along and the trailer was all over the place. Poor horse.
Grandfather's rights may be unfair and those of us of a certain age would have benefited from having training and taking a test, but times have changed, and roads are much busier. Training and tests are essential.
My first taste of towing in the late 70s was co driving with my mum my brother's racing yacht and trailer down from Cumbria to Devon in a LWB landrover. Something this size being driven on the M6 and M5 by a newish driver who's never towed before. Nuts of course, but perfectly legal then. From the start I've been a confident but cautious tower, but not everyone is.
Ellibelli
Well-Known Member
I agree with this and most of the bad incidents quoted on here weren't caused by someone driving a 7.5 ton with grandfather's rights. I think towing a trailer is far more difficult than driving a 7.5 ton. When I drive my 7.5 ton with my grandfathers rights on a motorway, I see trailers and 3.5 ton horseboxes overtake me at an alarming speed and if I was a horse I know which vehicle I would be safer in (the 7.5 ton driven on grandfathers rights), and if I were a fellow road user, I know which vehicles would be a greater threat to my safety (the trailer and the 3.5 ton)!I’m completely on the fence about this. I have grandfather rights and I’ve driven my own 7.5t lorries for years now. I’ve just downsized and bought my first 3.5t, frankly driving it with the horse on board scares me to death but that’s another story. When I got my first lorry I got a few tips from my friend (who also had grandfather rights but took lessons first) and practised practised practised until I was comfortable with how the lorry handled and that I could drive it well enough to put a horse in it. I think what we have to remember here is that horsebox drivers are probably amongst the most cautious of road users. But also I recognise there are a lot of people without a brain in their head that are not responsible road users regardless of what they’ve got on board or what vehicle they’re driving. I worked as a supermarket delivery driver during the pandemic and had to do an online and practical driving assessment. In my area I was the highest scoring out of my group, the highest scoring woman they’d ever had, and one of the highest scoring overall. My practical driving assessor was an ex traffic policeman and he said there was a thing or two I could teach all the supermarket’s drivers. Interestingly he asked me quite a lot of detail around what horse box drivers have to consider in relation to travelling horses (basically why do we travel so slowly!). Sadly though i think we always have to cater for the lowest common denominator. Roads are busier, people are more in a rush, and everyone is far more entitled as a road user than they were maybe even 10 years ago. My last 7.5t lorry was written off by a total tw*t in a commercial 3.5t who was speeding on the wrong side of the road. Head on collision with my horse in the back. I know whose driving was better that day. I also think towing a trailer is far harder than driving a 7.5t and actually I do think you should have to pass a test to tow. That was a longer answer than I intended and didn’t really conclude anything ?
Lady Jane
Well-Known Member
I completed the survey and q61 is 'What, if any, other driving licence issues do you think should be explored for improvement?' I commented that I think people who effectively self-certify their fitness to drive over a certain age (70?) should need some form of ratification from their doctor. I douby very much your elderly aunt would be safe driving a 7.5t unless she has done it all her life and is in excellent health with some physical strength!
Ellibelli
Well-Known Member
The standard renewal procedure at the age of 70 removes the C1 entitlement and they are no longer entitled to drive vehicles between 3.5 and 7.5 ton. If a driver wishes to continue to drive 7.5 ton they need a doctor to complete a medical form. I'm not sure any extra strength is required to drive a 7.5 ton than a 3.5 ton?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
When I passed my test in 1980 there were around 18m vehicles registered, there are now nearly twice as many but we haven't got double the roads. In 1996 there were about 25m and the increase is well over a third more since then.
Do I think ultra smooth synchromesh or automatic gear changing, ABS brakes, power steering and highly sophisticated radial tyres have removed a lot of the need for drivers post 1997 to really think ahead with their driving? Yes.
Do I think more powerful engines have allowed more drivers to do more dangerous things? Yes.
Are there more distractions than were ever available in the days when car radios were such a luxury they were routinely stolen? Yes.
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criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
In Spain where my parents live all drivers have to have a medical cert including hearing and sight and a reaction test when they first get their licence which is repeated every 10 years and 5 years when you get over a certain age.
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, I could have done with someone spotting I was short sighted before my 20s. I was driving and the optician was horrified.
scruffyponies
Well-Known Member
It sure was when I drove one... no power steering
The Xmas Furry
🦄 🦄
And expert coordination with a crash gear box, needing to double the clutch, which I had in my 1st big box! ?It sure was when I drove one... no power steering
Lady Jane
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I wasn't aware of the fact you needed a doctors medical to drive C1 after 70. If you can afford a newer 7.5t the strength may well not be an issue but oin my experience of older vehicles that's not the case (have jsut bought a 3.5t as my 7.5t was getting real hardwork). The 7.5t is an Iveco which my mechanic says has an 'agricultural gear box' - and being fairly short everything was a bit of a reach!
I was hoping my comment in the survey would be considered in the context of cars, not just bigger vehicles where people can definitely self certify their health at the moment
Lady Jane
Well-Known Member
@Ellibelli 'The standard renewal procedure at the age of 70 removes the C1 entitlement and they are no longer entitled to drive vehicles between 3.5 and 7.5 ton. If a driver wishes to continue to drive 7.5 ton they need a doctor to complete a medical form'.
How long has this been the case? My now retired mechanic was driving big lorries well into his 70s although he may have had an annual medical - I think he retired about 8 years ago aged 76?
How long has this been the case? My now retired mechanic was driving big lorries well into his 70s although he may have had an annual medical - I think he retired about 8 years ago aged 76?
ROG
Well-Known Member
To drive an LGV which was gained passing a LGV test there is an annual D4 medical every year from the age of 65
Pre 97 C1 needs a D4 medical from the age of 70 and needs renewing every 3 years
Daft aint it -
LGV C1 gained by passing a test is yearly from age 65
LGV C1 pre 97 is every 3 years from age 70
Same licence category with different medical rules !!!
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Oooh, I have a question then.
I have grandfather rights as I got my test in 1985. I drove 7.5 tonnes regularly until 1995, when I got the class 1 just before you had to do the 2&3 first.
I drove Class 2 wagons for many years, but have since downgraded first to a 7.5 tonne and now to a 4t.
I wish to keep driving my 4t horsebox.
I have both scenarios that you have detailed. Which route will I have to go re medicals?
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I am on the fence.
IME, you are either a careful driver or a pratt.
Passing a test doesn't stop you being a pratt.
I took my 7.5 tonne out first a few times with someone experienced. I was not a pratt.
I know some people with their class 1 who drive like absolute pratts. One of them was employed by the yard opposite us and had Charlie Horse under the wheels of the trailer. He had passed his test only the week before. Another drove right off the road and into the ditch. He too had his class 1 test. I was also once run off the A1(M) by a qualified class 1 driver, because he was a pratt.
I'm not sure you can legislate for pratts!!!
IME, you are either a careful driver or a pratt.
Passing a test doesn't stop you being a pratt.
I took my 7.5 tonne out first a few times with someone experienced. I was not a pratt.
I know some people with their class 1 who drive like absolute pratts. One of them was employed by the yard opposite us and had Charlie Horse under the wheels of the trailer. He had passed his test only the week before. Another drove right off the road and into the ditch. He too had his class 1 test. I was also once run off the A1(M) by a qualified class 1 driver, because he was a pratt.
I'm not sure you can legislate for pratts!!!
Lady Jane
Well-Known Member
Relieved I'm not the only one who didn't know you needed a mdical after 70 to drive 3.5t-7.5t!