Cair panels

[rextherobber]

Advice please - How long do Cair panels last? I am looking at an adjustable saddle for a shape shifting 4 year old, there are several Bates saddles available secondhand which look like they'd do the job, but would the Cair break down/deflate over time, if the saddle was made in 2007, for example? Is it expensive to have the Cair replaced, or would you just have the saddle traditionally reflocked?

 

[ycbm]

There were definitely problems with deflating airbags on those early one, I had one.

You can reflock with wool but it won't be cheap as it needs taking apart to do it.

 

[vhf]

My Wintec with Cair that I got in 2005 is still exactly the same. Had 3 or 4 different gullets and 2 or three different horses in the time. I bought a second, second hand one 5 years ago, that's not changed either. I think you have to be careful though as certainly originally, some were not inflated well for some reason and were rock hard. Going on my experience, that will never improve.

 

[Peglo]

I’ve also got a mid 2000’s wintec and I asked the saddle fitter about the cair system deflating and was told it was foam, not actually air that was in them. They showed me an old insert. Apparently very hot conditions is the only thing that’s likely to damage it so that’s not a worry for me as it’s never ‘hot’ weather here

 

[c2b]

I had cair removed and flocking put in. Cost approx £50. Done on site, didn't take long.

 

[onemoretime]

I had a Bates dressage saddle and the air bags went down slowly and it is a while before they were noticed. I would not have another Bates saddle.

 

[rextherobber]

I had a Bates dressage saddle and the air bags went down slowly and it is a while before they were noticed. I would not have another Bates saddle.

BUT....would you buy a 10 year old one, if it had traditionally flocked panels? Were you happy with it as a saddle? Would you consider it a decent saddle for £300 (approx) + cost of reflocking? Sorry for all the questions! The other option would be Thorowgood, but that makes me feel tipped back/chair seat on this horse...

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm not a fan of CAIR: a few years ago bought a Wintec used saddle with CAIR pads in it in good faith off e-bay, lo and behold later found when the saddle fitter rocked-up for a fitting that it needed new CAIR panels which actually would have cost more than the blessed saddle did!!

No one's fault, the seller probably had no idea - and it was several months later, so nothing could be done.

 

[Pinkvboots]

BUT....would you buy a 10 year old one, if it had traditionally flocked panels? Were you happy with it as a saddle? Would you consider it a decent saddle for £300 (approx) + cost of reflocking? Sorry for all the questions! The other option would be Thorowgood, but that makes me feel tipped back/chair seat on this horse...

I would rather have a flocked check how much it will cost first it might not be worth the bother, you do sometimes see the bates ones with flock for sale might be worth waiting as some horses don't like cair.

Have you tried a cair saddle before they ride slightly different as well?

 

[sbloom]

I’ve also got a mid 2000’s wintec and I asked the saddle fitter about the cair system deflating and was told it was foam, not actually air that was in them. They showed me an old insert. Apparently very hot conditions is the only thing that’s likely to damage it so that’s not a worry for me as it’s never ‘hot’ weather here

It's both - it's a sealed bag of foam, hence it acts with some of the qualities of the 100% Flair panel but it's not adjustable at all, apart from my adding things outside of the bags. Bags of air will bounce, some horses and some riders, and sometimes just a particular combo, won't get on with it. Supposedly very recent ones are a lot better, but many old ones get replacement flocking, I don't think it's super expensive.

I would nearly always recommend a wooden treed saddle, second hand, a good fitter, and a shim system. Tree shape is super important, just being able to adjust the width infinitely doesn't mean the saddle can fit all horses to begin with, nor that, if it fits now, it will always be able to be adjusted to fit the same horse. If, IF, a changeable headplate saddle truly fits a horse then grand, I have no pathological objection to them, but so often a wooden treed saddle does it better. IMO.

 

[Peglo]

It's both - it's a sealed bag of foam, hence it acts with some of the qualities of the 100% Flair panel but it's not adjustable at all, apart from my adding things outside of the bags. Bags of air will bounce, some horses and some riders, and sometimes just a particular combo, won't get on with it. Supposedly very recent ones are a lot better, but many old ones get replacement flocking, I don't think it's super expensive.
.

thank you @sbloom. I thought there must be something more to it but the fitter didn’t go into much detail. I must admit I really like my saddle and find it very comfy but will keep getting it checked to make sure it’s ok for Tali

 

[onemoretime]

BUT....would you buy a 10 year old one, if it had traditionally flocked panels? Were you happy with it as a saddle? Would you consider it a decent saddle for £300 (approx) + cost of reflocking? Sorry for all the questions! The other option would be Thorowgood, but that makes me feel tipped back/chair seat on this horse...

I bought mine brand new. No, I would not buy a 10 year old saddle of any make personally and £300 is very cheap for a good saddle. Was I happy with it as a saddle? Well it always moved which was a nuisance so no not really. The Bates saddles are very "A" cut in the front so not good for wide fitting horses. I would not buy another. I now have 2 Andrea Hicks saddles. One dressage and one VSD (very slightly dressage) I call it my GP. I cant ride in a dressage saddle nowadays (im too old and cant get my leg over the cantle) but my pro rider rides in the dressage saddle and loves it and it fits my mare really well. They are not over priced and are very well made. I had it fitted by Sam Wiltshire who says he sells more AH saddles than any other make.

 

[ihatework]

It’s not super expensive to replace the cair for flick should you find yourself in a situation of needing to.

There is far less bounce in the cair than flair, which overall I think is a good thing.

I picked up/gambled on a Caprilli jump on eBay for the bargain price of around £300 and it was buy of the century. Really nice saddle that goes on most sporty types and the horses go well in it.

Caveats are there is no real adjustability (other than the headplate) so any tweaking needs to be done with padding/shimming.

It’s obviously not going to suit all types, and better on your M-MW athletic types. One of my 3yos should have an athletic frame but currently resembles a table, so I suspect this saddle won’t work for her.

 

[rextherobber]

I would rather have a flocked check how much it will cost first it might not be worth the bother, you do sometimes see the bates ones with flock for sale might be worth waiting as some horses don't like cair.

Have you tried a cair saddle before they ride slightly different as well?

Hi, no, never ridden in one, so that's a good point....

 

[Pinkvboots]

Hi, no, never ridden in one, so that's a good point....

I quite like the wow saddles and I have tried a sue Carson which was air filled but one of my horses didn't like it he went round like he was on springs and bucked a few times ?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

When I was poking around the used Bates market awhile back I did notice that there were a few out there that were wool flocked, so it's possible to find one already converted to wool.

I find Bates to be comfortable, but I'm not sure I like the gullet plate shape with the kink in it, but I don't know how much this actually matters.

It's both - it's a sealed bag of foam, hence it acts with some of the qualities of the 100% Flair panel but it's not adjustable at all, apart from my adding things outside of the bags. Bags of air will bounce, some horses and some riders, and sometimes just a particular combo, won't get on with it. Supposedly very recent ones are a lot better, but many old ones get replacement flocking, I don't think it's super expensive.

I would nearly always recommend a wooden treed saddle, second hand, a good fitter, and a shim system. Tree shape is super important, just being able to adjust the width infinitely doesn't mean the saddle can fit all horses to begin with, nor that, if it fits now, it will always be able to be adjusted to fit the same horse. If, IF, a changeable headplate saddle truly fits a horse then grand, I have no pathological objection to them, but so often a wooden treed saddle does it better. IMO.

Sort of a tangent here, but do you prefer wooden trees, and why?

My saddle does have a wooden tree, and the warranty is shorter on it in comparison to the plastic trees made by the same brand. So from this I assume wooden trees might not last as long? I don't know. The saddle is a bit heavier due to the wooden tree, I think. I have no preference either way, personally, if the saddle fits and the horse gets on with it, so I'm purely curious here.

 

[rextherobber]

I quite like the wow saddles and I have tried a sue Carson which was air filled but one of my horses didn't like it he went round like he was on springs and bucked a few times ?

Oh...don't like the sound of that!

 

[sbloom]

When I was poking around the used Bates market awhile back I did notice that there were a few out there that were wool flocked, so it's possible to find one already converted to wool.

I find Bates to be comfortable, but I'm not sure I like the gullet plate shape with the kink in it, but I don't know how much this actually matters.

Sort of a tangent here, but do you prefer wooden trees, and why?

My saddle does have a wooden tree, and the warranty is shorter on it in comparison to the plastic trees made by the same brand. So from this I assume wooden trees might not last as long? I don't know. The saddle is a bit heavier due to the wooden tree, I think. I have no preference either way, personally, if the saddle fits and the horse gets on with it, so I'm purely curious here.

I don't like the kink in the Bates/Wintec headplate and have talked about it for a long time (I was referred to, though not by name, in the saddlefitter.blogspot blog posts on the matter many years ago!). I find it hard to avoid upper panel edge pressure because of it.

Wooden trees, in most cases, have way more fitting options for the horse and can provide a closer contact fit. Their shape gives a natural "space" to provide the give, the suspension that the rider needs, and a sprung tree has just the right balance, in the main, between rigid support/stability and give. Plastic trees are harder, usually less flexible, much less choice of shape as they're developed in industrial injection moulding processes which is expensive, and many evidence the massive amount of foam that is needed on top of the seat for rider "comfort" (arguable as if you support the bones correctly then the foam isn't needed, deep foam can irritate soft tissues).