CAIR system saddles

Lippyx

Lippyx

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Hi,

Can you remove the CAIR flocking and replace it with standard flocking?

I have seen a new dressage saddle, but it has CAIR, and I am not a big fan of CAIR, bit of a traditionalist when it comes to flocking of saddles. I am going to speak with my saddle fitter next week about it, but just wondered if anyone has done this?

Thanks
 
sorry, slightly going off subject bit, but can i ask why your changing and whether its a new cair saddle? - reason i ask is weve just bought a newer one (where the cair panels are complete/larger (whereas older ones were made up of smaller ones) and possibly causing gaps/overlaps/pressure points etc).

We had a difficult to fit short backed pony and since him having the cair goes like a dream.

thanks
 
well cair cannot be adjusted so a good reason to get rid of it, and it is hard and generally not nice.

Is it a wintec or a bates OP?
 
minimex2 said:
sorry, slightly going off subject bit, but can i ask why your changing and whether its a new cair saddle? - reason i ask is weve just bought a newer one (where the cair panels are complete/larger (whereas older ones were made up of smaller ones) and possibly causing gaps/overlaps/pressure points etc).

We had a difficult to fit short backed pony and since him having the cair goes like a dream.

thanks
Click to expand...

That's OK. My saddle fitter suggested I get a Wintec Pro saddle, but I could only get a Wintec 500 at the time. The reason being, is my boy is quite bum high, and he said the Pro's have a balance strap on the girth (dressage saddle this is) and it would be better. Any way, the saddle I have now (500) is now slipping forwards slightly (it is due for a check next week) and I said if I can find a Pro I would get one. I have found one (its the newer style) but its a CAIR, and I have heard things about the air pressure can change due to the horse's body heat etc., which makes sense to me, so a little cautious. Plus I have only ever grown up with traditional flocking, so I guess I am worried about "moving on" to something new?
 
I only ask because I'd think for the price of replacing the cair on a second hand wintec you'd prob get a nice second hand leather saddle with flock already in place.
 
ester said:
well cair cannot be adjusted so a good reason to get rid of it, and it is hard and generally not nice.

Is it a wintec or a bates OP?
Click to expand...


Actually Cair can be adjusted by a specialist Cair Fitter, it is no harder than flocking and I've had Cair saddles on welshed, tbs, appys and a wb and they have all had the same saddle and been adjusted to each.

It's a common thought that you can't adjust the Cair but with inserts the saddle shape can be changed just like flocking you just have to know how to do it.
 
every cair saddle I have felt has been hard, and can you really adjust as much as the small adjustments you can make with wool flocking (especially as synthetic doesn't give like leather does).

I used to have flair in an ideal jessica, I liked that :).
 
ester said:
I only ask because I'd think for the price of replacing the cair on a second hand wintec you'd prob get a nice second hand leather saddle with flock already in place.
Click to expand...

My only worry about getting a leather is whether its right for my boy. I had a K&M leather saddle before (GP) and it really caused him discomfort in his shoulders, as there was too much going on in front, and making me tip forwards. The fitter suggested a Wintec as it was light and not so much in front (GP or dressage)

I would love a leather saddle, but it must have adjustable gullets, and I don't know (other than K&M) who does them. I also want it dressage style in brown.

I agree, I have been weighing up costs... It will cost £75 to change the girth straps on my Wintec 500 to leather (they are starting to split), and probably the same if not more to add a balance strap each side... The saddle cost me £175!! So do I get this 2nd hand, nearly new Wintec Pro (£399 ono) I have seen instead.... or do I look at leather saddles?

There is no point looking at one that is made to measure as he is constantly changing at the moment, his saddle was only checked/adjusted 4 months ago, and it looks like it needs adjusting again already!!

HELP!
 
Coblover63 said:
Yep, I have.... can't abide Cair....
Click to expand...
My saddler just charged me the standard full reflock charge.

Incidentally, don't be fooled by "flocked" saddles by Bates/Wintec either.... that is a bit misleading. Their flocked saddles contain rock hard panels that are filled with lumpy flocking... These were removed from my new Wintec last month (Wintect 500 with the mesh panels underneath) and replaced with normal flock...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw09kR2Aj1I&list=UULsEZU2jEQlKI1FPV4zKFMg
 
Slightlyconfused said:
Actually Cair can be adjusted by a specialist Cair Fitter, it is no harder than flocking and I've had Cair saddles on welshed, tbs, appys and a wb and they have all had the same saddle and been adjusted to each.

It's a common thought that you can't adjust the Cair but with inserts the saddle shape can be changed just like flocking you just have to know how to do it.
Click to expand...

I thought the adjustable one was called flair? and Cair was the fixed one?
 
ester said:
every cair saddle I have felt has been hard, and can you really adjust as much as the small adjustments you can make with wool flocking (especially as synthetic doesn't give like leather does).

I used to have flair in an ideal jessica, I liked that :).
Click to expand...

Yes you can, you can put in lifts or pad out an area that needs it until the horse has built up the correct muscle. They have foam pads that go up in mls depending on how much extra you need.

All of mine are synthetic and have been great, but I only have a Cair fitter out to them not a normal master saddler as no one round here can to the added adjustments.
 
dianchi said:
I thought the adjustable one was called flair? and Cair was the fixed one?
Click to expand...

Cair has air bags inside and you insert foam pads of different sizes and shapes depending on the need of the horse. Our tb has shaped inserts in the shoulders to lift it slightly as saddle was a bit too tight and needed lifting off his shoulders to allow for movement
 
I do know of the pads, they seem very similar to the shims you would get in a mattes pad or similar and I do think they are too large to make the fine adjustments that are possible with good flock. But equally you won't get hard areas/balling.

Have we had the wintec/thoroughgood tree differences before OP?, is he getting on better with the wintec than the K&M?

You could get the nearly new wintec leave the cair and see how it goes rather than pay for a reflock straight away then decide if you want to keep it (as it is or pay for reflock) or sell it on again. At least once second hand the major money loss should have occurred.
 
Coblover63 said:
My saddler just charged me the standard full reflock charge.

Incidentally, don't be fooled by "flocked" saddles by Bates/Wintec either.... that is a bit misleading. Their flocked saddles contain rock hard panels that are filled with lumpy flocking... These were removed from my new Wintec last month (Wintect 500 with the mesh panels underneath) and replaced with normal flock...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw09kR2Aj1I&list=UULsEZU2jEQlKI1FPV4zKFMg
Click to expand...

any pics of the wool?
 
ester said:
I do know of the pads, they seem very similar to the shims you would get in a mattes pad or similar and I do think they are too large to make the fine adjustments that are possible with good flock. But equally you won't get hard areas/balling.

Have we had the wintec/thoroughgood tree differences before OP?, is he getting on better with the wintec than the K&M?

You could get the nearly new wintec leave the cair and see how it goes rather than pay for a reflock straight away then decide if you want to keep it (as it is or pay for reflock) or sell it on again. At least once second hand the major money loss should have occurred.
Click to expand...


It's difficult to explain and until I saw what my fitter did I really didn't think they would make that much of a difference.

Agree with trying in the Cair before getting re flocked, then you know for sure the shape is right for your horse.
 
ester said:
I do know of the pads, they seem very similar to the shims you would get in a mattes pad or similar and I do think they are too large to make the fine adjustments that are possible with good flock. But equally you won't get hard areas/balling.

Have we had the wintec/thoroughgood tree differences before OP?, is he getting on better with the wintec than the K&M?

You could get the nearly new wintec leave the cair and see how it goes rather than pay for a reflock straight away then decide if you want to keep it (as it is or pay for reflock) or sell it on again. At least once second hand the major money loss should have occurred.
Click to expand...

I have read about the difference in tree/gullet shapes between the Wintec and Thoroughgood, if that's what you mean?

When I put the Wintec on after having the K&M saddle, the change in his way of going was pretty much insist, and that's no exaggeration.

Got on him with the K&M and he would rush forwards in the paces, and almost panic in transition. He would hop in trot and spook a lot! In the Wintec he was calm, relaxed and didn't hop at all. His spookiness almost stopped, well, if he was worried he would ask me, rather than react and then ask questions.

My back lady said she doesn't like Wintec saddles, but that if he was happy with it, then carry on.

I know there are pro's and cons with all saddles, but he seems to prefer ones that aren't bulky, especially around the knee rolls/his shoulder area.

Brand new the Wintec Pro is about £600. I don't know how old it is, but its the new style, and looks barely used!
 
Slightlyconfused said:
Actually Cair can be adjusted by a specialist Cair Fitter, it is no harder than flocking and I've had Cair saddles on welshed, tbs, appys and a wb and they have all had the same saddle and been adjusted to each.

It's a common thought that you can't adjust the Cair but with inserts the saddle shape can be changed just like flocking you just have to know how to do it.
Click to expand...

This and it doesn't have to be a specialist Cair fitter, any saddler worth his/her salt will be able to do it. Quite a few people are now getting their Cair converted to flocking.
Oz
 
ester said:
Like everything, I think a good fitter can make the world of difference!
Click to expand...

Completely agree

Lippyx said:
I have read about the difference in tree/gullet shapes between the Wintec and Thoroughgood, if that's what you mean?

When I put the Wintec on after having the K&M saddle, the change in his way of going was pretty much insist, and that's no exaggeration.

Got on him with the K&M and he would rush forwards in the paces, and almost panic in transition. He would hop in trot and spook a lot! In the Wintec he was calm, relaxed and didn't hop at all. His spookiness almost stopped, well, if he was worried he would ask me, rather than react and then ask questions.

My back lady said she doesn't like Wintec saddles, but that if he was happy with it, then carry on.

I know there are pro's and cons with all saddles, but he seems to prefer ones that aren't bulky, especially around the knee rolls/his shoulder area.

Brand new the Wintec Pro is about £600. I don't know how old it is, but its the new style, and looks barely used!
Click to expand...

Our tb didn't like the thorougood, the gullets are long on them and didn't give his shoulder enough room. The winters are a shorter and more shaped and allows him to move. When we put the two gullets on top of each other you can really see the difference.
 
I've got a Bates which has been shimmed to adjust and my boy gets on fine with it. However, i have just bought a Wintec Pro with contourblocs to ride my OH's horse in and i really don't like it! (I personally don't find it comfy, nothing to do with fit) - i'm selling it on if interested drop me a pm (not sure if its the contourbloc one you've seen) :)
 
ester said:
any pics of the wool?
Click to expand...

20140810_123001_zpsb984ea0c.jpg
 
Lippyx said:
My only worry about getting a leather is whether its right for my boy. I had a K&M leather saddle before (GP) and it really caused him discomfort in his shoulders, as there was too much going on in front, and making me tip forwards. The fitter suggested a Wintec as it was light and not so much in front (GP or dressage)

I would love a leather saddle, but it must have adjustable gullets, and I don't know (other than K&M) who does them. I also want it dressage style in brown.

I agree, I have been weighing up costs... It will cost £75 to change the girth straps on my Wintec 500 to leather (they are starting to split), and probably the same if not more to add a balance strap each side... The saddle cost me £175!! So do I get this 2nd hand, nearly new Wintec Pro (£399 ono) I have seen instead.... or do I look at leather saddles?

There is no point looking at one that is made to measure as he is constantly changing at the moment, his saddle was only checked/adjusted 4 months ago, and it looks like it needs adjusting again already!!

HELP!
Click to expand...

Have you looked at Bates hun? They're the leather equivalent to Wintec. I managed to pic up the Innova dressage saddle with contourblocs on ebay for £470 and it looked pretty much brand new.
 
We do the initial training of youngsters only and saddles are a problem. For obvious reasons, I am not going to spend a lot on a saddle just for backing one youngster when I will need another for the next pupil! I thought a Cair might be the answer and bought one off Ebay to try. I now find the inflatable pads have no valve, so that presumably is incorporated into the pump and that gadget is not cheap! It's just a pump, for goodness sake, so is there a fix?

Let me quickly add that our youngsters are not ridden for hours on end. Twenty minutes maximum. So if the saddle isn't a marvellous fit but is serviceable, it will probably do the job. But is there a better solution? We also have Wintecs with the changeable gullets. Everything with youngsters has to be a compromise unless they are going to be sold for big money. It isn't worth purchasing expensive saddles for the short time until they are sold.
 
Cair panels are sealed, there is no valve and they can't be pumped up, so foam shims are used to provide adjustment. Flair panels do have valves, a bit like tyre valves and are adjustable that way.
 
I would really suggest you try with the Cair in it first if you do go for the saddle. I have always had traditional flocking on my saddles and my welsh D mare (who has huge shoulders) always hated them, bucking in canter and all sorts despite every single saddle being professionally fitted even in one case made to measure! My riding instructor suggested I try the Wintec Isabel with cair so that it moved better with her shoulder movement as the problem with all the saddles seemed to stem from lack of give as her shoulder came back causing her to become sore through bashing her enormous shoulder blades. I have never looked back as the difference in my little mare the minute the cair saddle was put on her was incredible. The bucking stopped overnight and we discovered that her unimpressive trot was a thing of the past and when she could finally move her shoulders in comfort we got big cob trot. she has now had her cair saddle for six years and still goes as well in it as she did when we first tried it. You can adjust cair with the yellow shims and in fact because of my mares shape she has inserts at the front because she is a bit downhill so saddles tipped forwards but as well as that my saddler has in the past added a little bit of wool flock as well where needed to ensure good fit.
 
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