CALA - who are you? Why is everyone asking for you?

[Michelle73]

Hello CALA, I'm fairly new on the All About Dogs Forum, I'm very horsey but have been frequenting the dogs forum more because we've just rescued a Collie x Kelpie and as everyone is asking for your help I was hoping you'd give a little introduction of yourself for those of us who are new(ish) here please?

Then I can fire any questions I have for you.

Although, we've had Jack 7 weeks on Thursday, he was around 10 or 11 months old when we got him and he's already won a 4th in Best Rescue and 5th in Best Condition at Wanborough Show last weekend - we were especially surprised by the Condition rosette as he's still a tiny bit ribby!!!

We also managed to get our Bronze award last night at dog training which only took 5 weeks to get so I think I have a super star in the making. Am I deluded?????

The only real issues we have with him is that he pulls on the lead but that is getting better and he's gone from yanking your arm out to just walking one stride ahead. I think this will come as he settles more.

And the other issue is that he can be a little vocal and occasionally snappy with other dogs. It appears to be defensive and again this is improving and its also why we took him to Wanborough Show at the weekend and he's going to Liddington Show this weekend simply to get him out and around other dogs! We're also walking out with three other dogs on Sunday but sadly there's no one to walk with on a daily basis!!

Overall we're very pleased with him and his progress. Any thing you'd like to add? We're also having a 1 on 1 session with our dog trainer tonight.

Not that I'm aiming to have a perfect dog or anything there then!!!

Thank you in anticipation.

 

[Fazzie]

We think Cala is away on hols at the moment hun
she is really experienced and gives good sound advice

dog sounds lovely

my dog wont stop pulling on the lead so i use a headcollar on him and its fab, everytime he pulls i make him sit it takes ages but it works
with the other dog thing, just get him out as much as possible, keep him on the lead and if he does get snappy, funny then tell him no, really sternly. he'll soon get the idea

 

[Michelle73]

Thanks Fazzie already doing that. Sometimes when he's pulling it takes me half hour to do what takes me five mins without the blinking dog!!!!! I know it will get easier, its just at 530am I could do with not having to be training. I want to put him in a Halti but the OH doesnt! We change direction as well when he's pulling but he's cottenned on to that one and anticipates!!!

I know it just takes time.

 

[Fazzie]

Ive got a border collie and hes been a nightmare, hes coming up to a year old next month and hes getting alot better.
I also taught him the 'close' command from early on, which he does usually listen to, so i tell him close when he pulls on the lead as well.
My other half wont use the headcollar either

sorry im not being much help!!

 

[Michelle73]

Horses are soooooooooooooooooooo much easier to train!!! We say Heel when we want him to walk loosley and relaxed on the lead and we're just starting to teach him "Close" now using titbits or toys depending on whats to hand.

It sounds like CALA is a lot of help to a lot of people!!!! Will report back tomorrow after the one on one with our dog trainer see if she has any other bright ideas!!!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

It was me who told Flamehead that I'm not that knowledgeable about specifically crate training and that CALA and other users on here is better at that. And I totally forgot that Cala is hopefully enjoying her vacation abroad this week or so.

I have no idea how Cala would introduce herself but from what I know, she works the night shift at a veterinary clinic so that she can run her dog (and I think also cat) rescue at daytime. Her mother also have a dog rescue and Cala does re-train those rescue dogs that she can and that needs it.
And since I hope it might have something to do with me but more likely MurphysMinder and Hacking_Hack, I can't resist mentioning that Cala has said that before she came on HHO, she was against all dog breeding but that she now sees that we who are for some breeding has our points.




Anyhow, in Cala's absence I hope you don't mind my advices. First, congratulations to the rosettes and Bronze awards. About the "still a tiny bit ribby", it depends on what you mean with ribby? If it means they're visible for the eye or protruding, then you're right and he needs more weight but otherwise the ribs on a dog in good condition should never be difficult to find when you rub around with your fingers in their coats. To put it blunt, dogs will store fat on almost all other parts of their bodies first, before they start to really completely conceal the fact that they have ribs.




Both Collies and Kelpies are usually interested in working but dogs eager to work can actually need to be taught to not expect work every day, without that some days you just stroll around the neighbourhood on the walk and take it calm, stop and talk with ants (real or imagined), sit down and just wait for him to relax and when he does, you reward him with continuing the walk. The goal with the last exercise it that sooner or later it takes less and less time for him to stop looking for that something should happen and realise that he has to wait, until he begins to wait almost as soon as you stop to wait.




It's great that his yanking the arm out is already down to him only walking one step ahead, so I doubt you really need advice. If you want to you can decide during a walk, that for the next 5 to 10 minutes I will turn and walk in the other direction as soon as he is that step ahead of me, after those minutes you continue the walk as normal. On a longer walk you can do more than one such 5 to 10 minutes period.
If he was further ahead of you, you could just stop and wait until he gets bored and begins to come back/does come back to you and then you reward with walking forward again.





About the other dog issue you're also doing it right, just continue not avoiding them, you shouldn't necessarily need somebody to walk with you on a daily basis, just try to walk on places where you might meet other dogs (and pray that they're accompanied by sensible owners, otherwise prepare yourself to shout that your dogs have fleas, contagious eating other dogs syndrome or something). And remember to pretend as if he's behaving perfect, unless he completely crosses your line, try to ignore whatever he does, pretend as if it rains and take deep breaths. It is very often that dogs doesn't only react on their own feelings but also from what they sense from their owner.

F.ex. lets say out walking you see another dog, what do you think? Is it possible you think anything like "Oh I hope Jack behaves" or "Please Jack, be calm"? If you do get a little tense or worried, Jack does not know that you're reacting in anticipation over his behaviour, he feels your reaction and feels even more insecure with the situation.
Try to always send out a signal that you're confident with yourself and the situation, whether you're or not.




As I said, you already seem to be doing it right, but hopefully you find something you can use in my ramblings.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Fazzie already doing that. Sometimes when he's pulling it takes me half hour to do what takes me five mins without the blinking dog!!!!! I know it will get easier, its just at 530am I could do with not having to be training. I want to put him in a Halti but the OH doesnt! We change direction as well when he's pulling but he's cottenned on to that one and anticipates!!!

I know it just takes time.

[/ QUOTE ]


According to me there is nothing wrong with Halti's as long as you're sensible. And you don't need to use it all the time, you can have it in your pocket and only put it on during a part of the walk.

And tell your OH that if he is against trying something that should not cause pain, he can walk the dog at 5.30 am. Besides that, what do you have on your horse's head when you ride? Tell your OH to complain when you want to put a bit in Jack's mouth!

 

[Michelle73]

FinnishLapphund, thank you. You made me chuckle a little bit.

It annoys me when other people let their dogs come up to Jack without asking!!! Then get all funny with me when Jack snaps, what do they expect. I tend to assess the situation, I watch Jack's body language first and try to keep the focus on me, if he's switched off, I will change direction or just get him to sit and work on focus whilst massaging his back to relax him. Or giving him a firm "Leave" if he's showing signs of wanting to kick off. OH hasn't been as fast as me at recognising the change in body language!!!

We go to training once a week and I can see that Jack looks forward to it now. And I will know on Saturday if he likes dog shows!!!! I shall re-read your ramblings about talking to Ants and give that a try!

I'm always open to new ways of getting Jack to heel and focus - although we play "watch" a lot and when Jack's watching closely, just for a laugh I really enjoy telling Jack "Its all abbut me"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!

Ah well, best do some work, off home in 13mins!!!!

Thanks again. Will report back with more info tomorrow after the 1 on 1 session.

 

[Michelle73]

[ QUOTE ]

According to me there is nothing wrong with Halti's as long as you're sensible. And you don't need to use it all the time, you can have it in your pocket and only put it on during a part of the walk.

And tell your OH that if he is against trying something that should not cause pain, he can walk the dog at 5.30 am. Besides that, what do you have on your horse's head when you ride? Tell your OH to complain when you want to put a bit in Jack's mouth!

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Goya]

I found a Halti sooooo useful when I first had my recue collie x. After a lot of training she doesn't use it now so maybe this will help your OH to change his mind.
There are other versions of the Halti also and if my memory serves me correct there is a post further down about them.
I can't remember the name but I do know several people who use them and they are very successful.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I am not a fan of haltis, but my GSD pup pulled like a train when walking with the others. The Gencon headcollar was recommended to me. It has a different action to a halti as it isn't pulling from the nose but from by the ear, worked really well on my girl. If you google gencon you should find the link.
If a different form of control makes walks a more pleasant experience for you and your dog I think your OH should consider it. You have a cross of 2 very intelligent breeds there so he should really enjoy his training, congrats on getting the bronze so quickly.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Hi Michelle, lazy I know, but I am going to copy and paste something I replied to Twisteddiamond a few posts below.

With my dogs I have always used a good quality half check (which tightens but does not close completely) and some treats or a ball to reward for staying close to you.

Re Haltis and headcollars, they are good TOOLS, but at the end of the day you need the dog to respect you, not the device.
PLEASE NOTE I say this as a person who needs to use a pinch collar on my dog in places where there are lots of other people/livestock/dogs and I look forward to the day when I will not use it at all (see happy end of post!)

You can do a number of things, including stopping dead or walking backwards/going back on yourself if the dog pulls - dog does not get any further forward by pulling, but does when he walks on a loose lead.

Using a long stick, crop or branch, tap on the chest if the dog passes a certain point by your side (only good for bolshy dogs, can make a nervy one a bit shy in the head)

Using a long lead, hold short on your left (with the dog at your left knee) and the length on your right and spin the lead around in a circle in front of you. If the dog ventures too far forward, he will get a tap on the nose from the spinning lead.
(Again, only good for bolshy dogs, can make a nervy one a bit shy in the head)

All of those suggestions will make you look like a complete lunatic while out in public but they work in most cases.

It is all about teaching the dog that by your side is the best place to be and that pulling doesn't get him anywhere and will end with him being rebuked.

I keep up the focus training. Reward him when he looks at you - try and hold his attention for as long as possible.
This will make training him for ANYTHING infinitely easier.
(Sounds like you are doing this already!)

Happily I can say that today, for the first time, my GSD was allowed off the lead for the whole of his walk, apart from roadwork, without a pinch collar on. HURRAY!
This is a dog to whom, a year ago, I did not 'exist', (and there were plenty of tearful PMs to Cala

) now he is mastering the offlead heel, long downstay and (very slow) agility. He loves to please me.

RE SNAPPINESS As FLH and others on here will know, through sensing my insecurity, my boisterous puppy turned into a dog-aggressive beast because he thought I was scared of the other animal and tried to protect me.
Dogs DO pick these things up and they often pick them up wrong - I was scared and nervous that people would think he was a horror. In this way, I turned him into one.

You and your OH need to start rebuking him on the 'look', don't wait for the lunge or the vocals, you know what I mean when I say 'look'. Sounds like you have the right idea, just need to teach the bloke what signs to look for.
My dog is soooo much better than he was but he still has a 'look' at a few dogs and as a result he is checked and when his focus is back on me he is rewarded.

You sound like you are already on the right lines, keep it up.
Well done on the bronze, keep us posted!

 

[MurphysMinder]

Totally agree with H-H about use of a check chain and the stopping, about turn/walking backwards method of stopping pulling. It worked for me with Evie when I walked her on her own, but when with the other 2 it resulted in them getting thoroughly fed up, and me getting tangled up

 

[Michelle73]

Morning All,

Thanks for all the suggestions, already practicing most of it. But its good to know we've naturally been doing the "correct" things. He's already in a "half check collar".

Our dog trainer said last night that Jack is very aware of his surroundings and is being nosey about everything. She thinks that he probably hasn't seen much before in his previous life. I find it much easier to get his focus than the OH but I think this is due to my changes in tone of voice and the way that I reward Jack when he focusses on me. Funny thing is, everything that the dog trainer told OH is what I've been saying to him for the last six weeks!!! The good news is that our trainer said there's no way that Jack is looking to be a dominant dog and he's quite happy with his place in our pack. The pulling is litterally because he just wants to get where he's going as quickly as possible!!! She did a few exercises to see if Jack knew where heel was and he doesn't so we've kind of gone right back to the beginning. I took Jack out to do the horse at 5.30am and it took me an hour instead of half an hour which it would be without Jack!

So this morning I asked for heel, if he didn't I got him to focus then ask for heel again, if he didn't then I stepped away asked for heel again, when he didn't heel, I placed him where I wanted him to be then told him "good heel" in a nice voice. As I needed to hurry I cheated a few times and nicked a bit of leafy twig out of the hedge and used that to make him walk by my side by getting him to play with it. This way I could get as far forward as I needed to be without constantly having to stop etc etc and he was by my side where I wanted him. When the focus on the twig wore off, I stopped, asked for heel, praised if it came, placed if it didn't then we started the whole process again and all the way home too!!!!

This is the only time I wish I had the use of a Halti, then I could just crack on with my morning chores without worrying about "Training"!!!!

The good news is that a Westie passed us last night while the trainer was there and Jack didn't really make a fuss, he'd just been told to sit to get out of the way of a car, but spotted the dog and stayed stood so dog trainer told OH to reinforce the sit. OH had body blocked the other dog and all was calm!

This morning as I was leaving the field I saw a black lab coming the other way, now the owner gets dragged everywhere that the dog wants to go!!!! He's never ever had control of the dog and I don't believe that the dog gets let off the lead as I don't think it would come back!!!! Anyway, Jack has barked at this dog in the passed and I don't blame him, its a huge boisterous and obnoxious dog. The man who owns this out of control dog actually ripped into my OH for not keeping control off Jack who was jumping around and barking (this was several weeks ago and baring in mind we've only had Jack 7 weeks yesterday!) So this morning I took great delight in getting Jacks focus using a leafy twig, talking to him, praising him for "Watch" and all he did was look at the other dog, after the dog had gone passed Jack whimpered a bit and got a little excited but compared to how he was I was most impressed with him. He was then told to sit and wait so we could cross the road safely. I was delighted to let the owner of the naughty dog hear me praising Jack lots and lots for his amazingly good behaviour.

So on my part, after owning Jack for just 7 weeks, perhaps I need to have little more patience and slightly lower expectations!!! But as I said to the trainer yesterday, everyone tells me that we have a very very intelligent dog, so why not put him to the test and challenge him mentally! Obviously I know the difference between the signs when he doesn't understand or has just switched off because he's lost interest!

All in all, I believe that it was the OH that needed the training not the dog or me!!!! LOL!!!! I have come to this conclusion because the dog trainer didn't want to see me in action with Jack, is this because in our little pack, I'm clearly top dog and Jack responded to me much quicker than he did OH??! Or is it because I've been doing the weekly training classed with Jack and our trainer has already seen me in action with my boy?!

I suspect that after the session last night the pulling on the lead will resolve its self quite quickly.

However I'm still open to ideas and suggestions for what we can do for Jack next! I plan to "Talk to Ants" and I think I may well try the swinging the lead thing. The leafy branch put over his head in front of him didn't work to bring him back, Jack just dodge to the side and shot forward again, but maybe I wasn't doing it quite right?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Again, it sounds like you are doing a great job, especially if you have only had him seven weeks. Glad to hear you are having success for other dogs.

Your boy sounds just like mine. 'Oh look! Trees! Birds! A butterfly! I'll just pop up on this fence and look on the other side!'
And he takes the total mickey out of my Mum and OH...some dogs are one-person dogs and you are clearly his person

I'd maybe use something solid to hold him back (how would you feel about a walking stick?

), put it diagonal across his chest and tap-tap if he tries to go forward. Don't worry, it doesn't work for all dogs, just one of a long list of options

 

[Michelle73]

Thank you.

He's actually the OH's dog, he has the dog, I have the horse!!!! But I actually end up spending more time with the dog. Its quite hard as OH is on shifts too so the dog does have to swap between the two of us as I'm at home all the time and then I'm at work and OH is home all the time. But Jack seems to be settling into this routine very well and there's only a max of 3 days per week but usually less when he's alone for a whole day but then he has fun with my next door neighbour through the fence!!! LOL!!!! He kept taking me out to play with her last night but she wasn't in the garden!!!!

I could try with my schooling whip maybe, if I use the handle end on his chest or maybe even the lung whip but the handle end with him. Will give that a try tonight. I would imagine that a walking stick would be better though as I could hook it around him!! We'll get there in the end!!!!

 

[Michelle73]

Oh I forgot to say, we were watching him chase a fly round the house last night, thats hilarious!!!!!!!!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Glad to hear he is doing so well.

You said "perhaps I need to have little more patience and slightly lower expectations!!! But as I said to the trainer yesterday, everyone tells me that we have a very very intelligent dog, so why not put him to the test and challenge him mentally!"
I can understand the temptation to so to say challenge his intelligence, when you know he has the capacity to learn things quickly, why not just do it. But by doing that, you risk also teaching him to expect that he needs to have his brain on most of the time, so that he can learn the things you want him to and he will continue to expect to get the same level of activation.
If you're an over-active person that will probably not cause any problem, but if you just want him to be an obedient "normal" dog, then there's no need to challenge his intelligence to much.

You don't really sound like the following sort of person, it's just that I've had dogs for 19 years now and I can't count how many times I've heard about people wanting an intelligent dog that learn things quickly, then when they think their dog have learned enough, they think they can sit down and relax. And when the dog begins to tear the house down out of boredom, something is wrong with the dog and very often it ends with the dog losing on it. And I know that if they'd chosen a less intelligent dog from the start that didn't learn so quickly or at least taught it to not always expect a high level of activation, it wouldn't have needed to end the way it often does for the dog.
As I said, you don't sound like that sort of person, you just sound like a normal proud "mother" with an intelligent "child", but it never hurts to be a little careful, with an intelligent dog you don't need to worry about him not learning things, it will only be a matter about when he learns them.



I can confirm your observation about that it usually is the owners that needs the most training and it's not the first time I've heard of people not wanting to be taught by/listen to a family-member about how to do something but if a "stranger" is saying it, no problem.

Personally about the walking I would do as follows, for the first five minutes I would focus on not walking without him being where I wanted him, then for maybe 10 minutes I would walk where I wanted to walk and just ignore his position as long as he didn't yanked my arm out, then I would focus on him walking correct for 5 to 10 minutes before ignoring his position again for maybe 10 minutes and so on.
There is no need to "cheat", I don't expect a child in first grade to be able to focus 100% for all of a 40 minutes lesson, later yes when they've learned what it's all about and possibly also when they're an year or two older but not from the start.
And he will learn something important from the time when you don't focus on his position too, that he has to follow you even when you're not telling him exactly how you want him to do it.


I would say that dodging the branch and shooting forward was quite normal behaviour, I would just follow after with the branch, until he figures out that the way to avoid it is to stay behind it.

Just keep on doing what you're doing and remember the goal isn't everything, enjoy the way it takes to get you there too.

 

[Michelle73]

Thank you.

I think I try too hard!!!! LOL!!!! Thats some good advice about the timings for the education part of the walk, that will help me in the mornings. Ironically, we would only have to have him on the lead for about 5 mins to get to the field where my horse is then he could go off the lead, if he didn't pull!!!! But because he pulls it takes us 20 mins to half hour to get there!!!!! When OH is at home I don't take the dog with me at 5.30am - dog only comes when we're both working days which are few and far between thankfully and thats because OH leaves the house around 5.45am!!! Any other time we have more time because one of us is at home for the majority of the day!

I'll report back on Monday how things have gone over the weekend. Thanks again.

 

[CAYLA]

at this post

usually when there is a CALA post it's PBS, Acolyte/splotchy, or Hen slating and picking on me

Anyhow, u have gotten some good advice and seem like you are making good improvements.
As mentioned pulling can be tackled in many differents methods, Im not a halti person either, but have recently been out to help a lady control her neo x great dane, this dog was a beast and the only thing we could use to help her control the dog as she was not very strong, wa a halti and it worked, although I used my usual check chain method and that worked fab, the lady was not strong enough to correct her on the check chain.

Good training impliments are a must, walking with a unsuitable lead that burns your hands is a huge factor in not being able to gain full and efficient control, I recommend a good leather training lead and check or half check makes life much easier as opposed to nylon, chain or rope leads on a puller

The changing direction is good, my OH uses this and gets good results, u do it quick and with good firm control, the dog will quickly anticipate your next move and stay close if it wants to avoid a firm yark and it snaps them from whatever is pre-occupying them

I will literally place the check up high around the neck, making sure the loop is running the right way, and I will correct and command to heel.

Lead aggression is very common in dogs and rarely will this mean the dog will attack when off lead, the dog has knowhere to go, and is restricted much like kennel aggression and running up and down next door neighbours fence threatening to eat the dogs if they get through, but of course when they meet up, play is usually high on the agenda.

I deal with mainly dog aggression, but I generally bring them to my home, and literally mix them into my pack, out doors, I would give a firm correction and LEAVE it, or a distraction technique, with a treat I would never normally give or a favourite toy, which I would produce to get the dogs attention when passing the other dog, with a treat, I hold it in my palm and let them sniff and lick, but won't allow them to take until I pass the dog, so they assosiate the passing with a positive assosiation/reward.
I also about turn them with the treat as an entiser when passing the dog, so when we are back facing the right way, the dog has passed and no commotion assosiated with passing.
I also sometimes make them sit and focus and treat or toy and give a WATCH me command.
It really depends on the dog and the level of aggression.
Hope that makes sense, it hard to write it out instead of physically demonstaiting

Always be firm, don't wrap the lead up in panick around your hand, otherwise u have already given the dog heads up on your apprehension.

 

[Michelle73]

Thank CALA, more great advice.

I have to admit, I didn't do any heel work this weekend. Shame on me!!!! I did concentrate on the aggression though and threw Jack in at the deep end with a Westie Rehoming show, if anything was going to set Jack off it would be lots and lots of yapping Westies (no offence meant to any Westie Fans out there). It worked a treat, barely any snapping and delightfully we got a 6th out of around 25 dogs for the dog in best condition.

I also managed to get Jack off the lead in a field with a footpath next to the show ground. His recall was that I'd say which was "tipically male!!!!" He came but in his own good time!!!! I'm just thrilled that he came at all!

Then on Sunday, Jack had a walk off the lead with three other dogs, surprisingly he was extremely anti-social and chose to go find the interesting sniffs oh and the badger poo to roll in!! Stinky dog now.