Call to action over rider deaths.

I will paste here what I put on the OT Official facebook page:

You raised valid points but didn't offer any solutions. I personally think BE do a great job on safety. We've just had the toughest 4* where all riders & horses finished without serious injury. The issue often lies with riders who don't prepare either themselves or their horses. We used to have to be signed off by an accredited trainer in all 3 phases which was a good thing. I am also a big fan of airvests. Working with those with high level spinal cord injury makes me super safety conscious & £400 is a small price to pay if it means you avoid serious injury. Accidents do happen & XC shouldn't be dumbed down.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
But........ methinks perhaps in those days (and I'm gonna be shot down for this, just feel it:) that horses were maybe better prepared? What I mean is that young/green horses were given a season's cubbing & then hunting proper, and learnt how to deal with all sorts of fences (fixed timber included), and have to find an extra leg on a regular basis, BEFORE being thrown into the cross-country course situation.

And the X-country courses of that period would scare the pants of any horse/rider combination that wasn't properly prepared! You just wouldn't risk it.

Whereas nowadays a lot of horses are way too "precious" (and expensive, lets face it) to be allowed to go hunting, which is still IMO the very best prep any horse, or rider for that matter, could ever have for eventing.
Click to expand...

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I was given an old advanced horse 10 years ago to hunt. He couldn't cope with jumping without studs and he couldn't cope at all with the ground out hunting. I had to give him to a friend for hacking!!!
 
I really appreciate everyone's responses to my initial post. As some of you have pointed out, it is easy to ask rhetorical questions. My letter was not written in any way to create hysteria and definitely not to be antagonistic towards our federation who have put considerable amounts of funding into safety over the last 10 years. I also completely agree that we all have a choice to participate in eventing which we know is a high risk sport. My issue is that the same type of accident keeps occurring time and time again ie these are not 'freak accidents' which can happen to anyone at any time, and I feel really strongly that when a life is lost we should all take a step back and really think about whether improvements can be made. My aim was to provoke a measured debate, which hopefully will lead to some sensible action in the areas that can be made safer. With respect to air jackets, I dont necessarily think that they should be made compulsary, I just think that everyone should be made aware of the potential benefits of wearing them, and should consider investing in one. I know that the price of some brands are beginning to come down , and I think it would be worth some unbiassed research to judge exactly what combination of body protector/air jacket combination provides optimum safety so that riders are able to just make one investment in the safest gear instead of the present where body protectors and air jackets have to be worn at the same time. With respect to course building and fence design, I think that there could possibly be stricter regulation on distances especially at the lower to mid level of the sport, and I wonder whether in old fashioned courses, most technical fences were preceded by a big bold fence therefore encouraging more forward riding into a combination. I also think that it is important that owners are encouraged to have a better understanding of the sport, as innocent lack of understanding on their part can result in horses and riders being pushed out of their comfort zone, which ultimately can result in accidents due to horses being ridden too fast when unfit, or pushed to levels beyond their natural ability.

Finally, just to reiterate, my only motivation in starting this conversation, is to hopefully spark a debate that if nothing else, provokes riders to take a few moments to really think about the sport, the horses they ride, how they train, whether they and their horses are fit enough, which can only be a good thing.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
A friend forwarded a YouTube of HRH Princess Anne in 1976 at the Bromont Olympics in Canada doing her cross-country round. No BP, crash-hat primitive to say the least. She took a horrendous fall - and went on to complete the round. But she had been concussed and said afterwards that she couldn't remember completing!!!

So what I'm saying is that eventing in particular, and horse-sports in general, were far more dangerous years ago.

But........ methinks perhaps in those days (and I'm gonna be shot down for this, just feel it:) that horses were maybe better prepared? What I mean is that young/green horses were given a season's cubbing & then hunting proper, and learnt how to deal with all sorts of fences (fixed timber included), and have to find an extra leg on a regular basis, BEFORE being thrown into the cross-country course situation.

And the X-country courses of that period would scare the pants of any horse/rider combination that wasn't properly prepared! You just wouldn't risk it.

Whereas nowadays a lot of horses are way too "precious" (and expensive, lets face it) to be allowed to go hunting, which is still IMO the very best prep any horse, or rider for that matter, could ever have for eventing.[/QUOT




It would be interesting to compare the statistics from the 70's to now, to see whether there are more falls or deaths theses days!!
Click to expand...
 
Myjods, that is a very good point. We also had to fling ourselves around any number of ill prepared show jumping and cross country courses with scrappy fences and illjudged distances on terrible ground before we could think of affiliating at the lowest height, Novice with fences up to 1m10. And almost all of us learnt to ride out on hacks, not in the controlled situation of a school.

Even local unaffiliated dressage and show jumping and 'cross country' are run on perfect arena surfaces these days.
 
Last edited:
Also and again this is just my feeling.Too much money in the sport.People take, or have to take on too many horses.Pressure is possibly put on by owners for the horses to be competing and winning maybe too soon and because of pressures on time, the competing rider may not be doing much of the preparation a groom will, so horse and rider don't know each other that well.
 
cptrayes said:
If nobody was ever badly hurt, or died, the sport would not hold the same thrill, not generate the same level of adrenaline, and would not have been a sport which I would have chosen to do.
.
Click to expand...

:eek: just.......words fail me.

angelish said:
the biggest safety issue i think needs sorting out pronto is the lower level competitors , iv'e spent this year doing BE80's and it is shocking what some people consider fit/competent enough to take around a xc course
there was at least 5 horse/rider combinations at each comp (4) that i have been to this year that shouldn't have been allowed to even start the xc due to unbalanced and poor riding , one person fell off in the sj then proceeded to fall off twice round the xc course :( not to mention the welfare implications of some horses being obese and allowed to start

there really is going to be a serious accident at the lower levels if this is not dealt with
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this, some of the riding seen at the lower levels is shocking.
Personally, I don't think that BE80 & 90s are a good idea (apart from, admittedly, financially). Eventing used to start at Novice and I think that sorted the wheat from the chaff a bit earlier. People had to actually be competent before considering competing.
Nowadays pretty much anything (and any rider) can be got round a BE80. IMO it gives people a false sense of their own skill.
Mistakes you might get away with at the lower levels, you certainly won't higher up.
(Not meaning anyone in particular!)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
What I mean is that young/green horses were given a season's cubbing & then hunting proper, and learnt how to deal with all sorts of fences (fixed timber included), and have to find an extra leg on a regular basis, BEFORE being thrown into the cross-country course situation.

And the X-country courses of that period would scare the pants of any horse/rider combination that wasn't properly prepared! You just wouldn't risk it.
Click to expand...

Totally, totally agree. The majority of horses competing now will have no experience of ground other than a school surface. No one seems to school on grass anymore.
 
Getting on a horse is dangerous from the start and always will be one of the most dangerous sports out as you trust your life to an animal. There is more risk competing at higher levels and nearly everyone competing at higher levels know the risks. £400 isn't a lot of money if your regularly competing. A rotational fall suggests the horse wasn't prepared for the jump, I doubt there is anything BE could do to improve that. It is just a terrible accident..
 
OP the number of deaths per competitors competing is DOWN rather than up indicating that the sport is safer. Things may appear otherwise because of the large increase in people participating in the sport, but you can't judge the level of risk unless you compare numbers of deaths with numbers of participants. For example, you could have a sport where only 2 people have died in the last decade and this looks safe in comparison to BE as that is not many deaths...until you find out that there have only been 2 participants in the last decade, which makes it the most dangerous sport ever.
 
Going back to the first page, where the price of air-jackets is being critisised. So they cost £400. How much to enter an affiliated event? About £100 just in fees, not including deisel? So you don't do a few events one season, save the money & invest in protective wear that will last for years (with minimal cost of replacing gas bottles when you forget you are attached or have occasional falls). Even when I go to pony club level ODE, I see people with expensive tack (often at least 2 saddles) such as 5 point breast plates which at this level in all reality are not needed & could be replaced by cheaper tack alternatives. The money saved (when the 5 point costs well over £100 as a single example, saddles more) could be put to getting an air jacket. The money is there, competitors just need to make the choice as to where they spend it. The onus is not on the company to sell for minimal profit margins, they have many more costs to recoup beyond simple manufacturing of the product, such as all the testing it has had to undergo & further product development. It's no different that people spending a lot on their hat, again a very worthwhile investment.
 
The air jacket question is a difficult one .
I think at the lower levels it would act as a block to entry.
I do think it's a choice the rider should make .
 
I completely agree, while I understand why air jackets are so stupidly expensive to probably make, having your life taken away from you is priceless so I really think that they should lower the prices of the air jacket as I really think the count of deaths would lower, as the likes of people who don't have that amount of money too splash at that price like me, would buy it if the price is lower.
 
pip6 said:
Going back to the first page, where the price of air-jackets is being critisised. So they cost £400. How much to enter an affiliated event? About £100 just in fees, not including deisel? So you don't do a few events one season, save the money & invest in protective wear that will last for years (with minimal cost of replacing gas bottles when you forget you are attached or have occasional falls). Even when I go to pony club level ODE, I see people with expensive tack (often at least 2 saddles) such as 5 point breast plates which at this level in all reality are not needed & could be replaced by cheaper tack alternatives. The money saved (when the 5 point costs well over £100 as a single example, saddles more) could be put to getting an air jacket. The money is there, competitors just need to make the choice as to where they spend it. The onus is not on the company to sell for minimal profit margins, they have many more costs to recoup beyond simple manufacturing of the product, such as all the testing it has had to undergo & further product development. It's no different that people spending a lot on their hat, again a very worthwhile investment.
Click to expand...

not everyone competes, what about the likes of people who just want one for pleasure rides , hacking?
 
There have been a couple if comments (including from OP) suggesting that owners put pressure on riders to compete on unsuitable horses - or words to that effect. I would dispute that. I compete in my own right (previously to high level, now only occasionally to novice) but also own horses - that professionals ride for me at Intermediate up to 4* Consequently I spend a huge amount of time 'playing owner' with other genuine owners. By this I mean people who invest large sums if money, support the sport and the industries around it, and give many many budding riders a chance. I have never never heard anyone suggest/complain/push a rider to take the horse to a higher level - quite the reverse. Usually owners are exceptionally nervous and worried about 'that next step'. It is always the rider who wants to take it and makes the suggestion, in my experience. Also, it seems to me that most professional riders are more than capable if saying no, should they feel uncomfortable.

I accept that some riders may be pressured, but feel more this is at an amateur level, and more often as not, the owner is probably related to them. Alternatively the 'owner' wants to push the horse up a level to add value prior to sale. In my view, that is not an 'owner' speaking, it is a dealer.

Lets not forget without owners investing we would not have an Olympic Team or representation at International Level - all the decent horses would be sold abroad. They should be thanked, not pilloried as some ignorant ghoulish death mongers ! To suggest that they 'dont understand the sport and that they are 'ignorant of the dangers' is insulting. If any rider has an owner who is pushing too far, then protect your self and politely refuse.

I would also like to reply to the posts about 'too much money' in the sport - not sure where it is ! I certainly don't see any of it !
 
What about the prices of horses? An experienced, reliable horse is safer but far more expensive than an inexperienced, unreliable horse, and much more expensive a purchase than an air jacket - is that unfair? And how exactly should such things be rectified? Should BE be in the business of buying air jackets and horses and distributing them equally to all competitors?
 
This thread is specifically about those who event, not those who hack.

What hackers choose to spend in terms of safety products is a personal choice as much as any other sector.
 
2horsesnomoney said:
While one one hand i do agree, however there is no way our sport could ever be deemed "safe" we are entrusting our lives to a prey animal with a mind of its own, i believe just as many serious accidents and deaths occour to riders at home, hacking schooling training so for these accidents no governing body can make a differance. I do think that as riders it is OUR responsability to ensure we are as safe as humanly possible - ie. Body protector, air vest, good safe to standard hat, suitable horse and at correct level of fitttnes/ training. We just need to understand the risks and make our own decision as to if somethink is safe enough for us to take part. If we have taken all reasonable precautions and know the risk and still continue then we should just be able to enjoy our sport.
It should be down to Rider Responsability our safety is in our hands!
Click to expand...

I agree with this. Although Im not 100% sold on air vests and have never worn one (and have evented). Where is the proof that they really DO save lives? Personally, I hate the way they seem to make people go rigid when they pop - if a horse is about to come down on top of me then Id like the choice to try and roll out of the way which isn't possible in air vests once they're inflated.

But otherwise I think its all down to the rider feeling they have trained and fittened their horse correctly for the particular level they are at etc. but sadly accidents will happen - with a 1/2 tonne of horse galloping round a course of solid obstacles, I really dont see how any risk could ever be totally taken away.
 
Last edited:
I'd certainly love to see some proper research done into air vests, in fact rider safety in general. Maybe rather than saying 'what is the best we can do with the kit we have', we should be willing to consider any sensible idea even if it would mean a radically different approach? More research on making jumps safer would also be a good thing as would introducing some qualification for course designers (if there isn't one already). Perhaps there is also a need for more research into how horses see jumps and what can be done to make them easier for a horse to understand.

I don't think getting rid of 80s and 90s is a good idea, I suspect there are fewer unaffiliated events then there used to be and people are also less likely to hunt. If people are going to get into affiliated eventing, at least as adults, there's a lot to be said for a regulated pathway in which people compete at events which are as safe as possible - in other words BE 80s and 90s. That said I do think a firmer line should be taken in terms of pulling up people who aren't up to standard/are on unfit horses etc.
 
But it tends to be the "experienced rider" who has the bad accidents. How many serious accidents are there at the lower levels? There are a lot fewer unaffiliated events so the 80s and 90 are really the only way into eventing.

I think the lack of hunting experience is a factor, at one time all young horses would go hunting, but then there weren't the numbers competiting then, nor was the dressage standard anywhere near as high.

Priceless - Ginny Leng - was one of the most consistent horses ever, and he spent his 4/5 winter stag hunting on Exmoor, and Ginny wrote that had she had him in later years and spent that time schooling for dressage he would never have been such a good cross country horse.

It would be interesting to compare % of serious accidents then and now taking into account numbers competing. I used to hear about people being hurt, but it was very, very rare to hear of a competition fatality.
 
armchair_rider said:
I don't think getting rid of 80s and 90s is a good idea, I suspect there are fewer unaffiliated events then there used to be and people are also less likely to hunt. If people are going to get into affiliated eventing, at least as adults, there's a lot to be said for a regulated pathway in which people compete at events which are as safe as possible - in other words BE 80s and 90s. That said I do think a firmer line should be taken in terms of pulling up people who aren't up to standard/are on unfit horses etc.
Click to expand...

This. BE80s and 90s at least have accredited trainers on hand, and the course walks etc help prepare them. There is also the fact that the courses are BE approved, compared to unaffiliated courses where ground can be dodgy, fences sizes varied (my sister once was faced with a jump we measured as 1.02m during the course walk in a 90cm class unaff?), and not always as well maintained or designed. I think more people should be pulled up after SJ if not of a standard to jump XC, as the PC does, but I think eliminating the affiliated training just reduces grassroots support and training rather than stops numptys going XC.

I'll admit, I think BE does a great job in improving safety standards, but I would love to know whether anyone else thinks that a move back to the old long format of eventing would reduce the number of rotational falls? I'll be the first to say I'm no expert, but the XC courses were less technical and because of roads&tracks etc required a much higher level of fitness - different requirements in both horse and rider than modern eventing. The number of rotational falls in recent years has made me question whether this would maybe be an idea - would love to know what others think, and whether you think it would be practical.
 
Should riders be taught how to fall, as jockeys are? Accidents in racing are common but deaths seem less, don't know if statistically that's correct. Would learning how to curl and roll even help with a rotational fall?
 
not read it all but in my view as sad as any death is, the whole purpose behind eventing is thrill
Softer option fences will only make the speed faster and increase the risk of rotational falls Probably controversial but it may even help to make the fences command more respect by being bigger and more technical and the timings made optimum so those that fit in a short time, done well and carefully would be clear those that race round would be penalised more heavily than those who take too long for example 2 penalty points for those under the optimum time 1 penalty for those over it
 
Millikins said:
Should riders be taught how to fall, as jockeys are? Accidents in racing are common but deaths seem less, don't know if statistically that's correct. Would learning how to curl and roll even help with a rotational fall?
Click to expand...

Have had a rotational fall (a slow one ) I don't think any amount of training how to fall would have helped I was on the horse a long time as it passed through the air I remember seeing the horse wither heading towards my chest I was saved by the fact the fence was on a down hill slope and I slipped down the bank and the horses wither just missed me.
I will never be so lucky again I was fully aware of what was about to happen It was a very nasty moment sometimes your lucky sometimes your not that time I was .
You get different types of falls racing I think.
 
MagicMelon said:
Personally, I hate the way they seem to make people go rigid when they pop - if a horse is about to come down on top of me then Id like the choice to try and roll out of the way which isn't possible in air vests once they're inflated.
Click to expand...


I have had one rotational and several other falls in mine and this was not the case for me.
 
There is one bit of information which I think would be interesting and that is whether there is any evidence that the horses which suffer these sort of falls have been stood on a horsebox for hours prior to competing. Travelling and a long day on a lorry have to have an effect on horses.
Fewer jockeys have bad injuries because of the speed they are travelling. They tend to get thrown clear and I feel lack of speed can be a factor in these sort of falls. There are very few courses now that allow for a constant speed and rhythm and I do feel this could be a factor.
 
I get the impression that deaths (though not serious injuries) are confined to the higher levels, I can't recall hearing of anyone dying in a 100 or smaller. I would imagine that catastrophic falls are less likely at the lower levels because the speed is slower and the fences are smaller.

I agree with windandrain about time penalties for going too quick and the risks associated with softening up fences. Possibly fence design at the lower levels could be changed to be more representative of the fences seen at higher levels.

Long format is an interesting one... I wonder what difference the steeplechase made in terms of getting the horse warmed up and in a good rhythm?
 
I would have thought that if this is the case then statistics would show that accidents would tend to be earlier in the course. I dont know if this is true or not. I do suspect that a lot of horses could do with a more suitable warm up . Sure, there are practice fences but there is seldom room to give a horse a good 5 furlong 3/4 pace gallop to warm up. With the absence of Roads & Tracks and the steeplechase,I do believe that far too many horses are over excited and hyper at the start of the xc.
 
Mike007 said:
I would have thought that if this is the case then statistics would show that accidents would tend to be earlier in the course. I dont know if this is true or not. I do suspect that a lot of horses could do with a more suitable warm up . Sure, there are practice fences but there is seldom room to give a horse a good 5 furlong 3/4 pace gallop to warm up. With the absence of Roads & Tracks and the steeplechase,I do believe that far too many horses are over excited and hyper at the start of the xc.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this comment. I am no eventing expert, but watching Burghley I notice a lot of fresh horses making mistakes at that globe fence early on the course, they were galloping, unbalanced and getting very close to and hitting it.

The other thing my inexperienced eye noticed, was a number of horses getting very tired. One grey was knackered when it got to the bridge fences, head on the floor. Why was is not stopped ?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top