Call to stop Multiple Hot Branding - BBC footage

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Matisse

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Call to Stop Multiple Hot Branding - BBC Footage

The BBC broadcast a news report yesterday about the current practice of Multiple Hot Branding Exmoor pony foals. The report and footage is here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-18439045

There are concerns that the continued practice of allowing breeders to multiple hot brand 'domestic' Exmoor pony foals with up to 7 digits - using red hot irons, going in three times to the pony's shoulder and flank - is inhumane and contravening the current Permitted Mutilations Regulations (Animal Welfare Act 2006). The regulations state that the practice must be of a welfare benefit to the animal or necessary for its management. This is not the case with domestic, and microchipped foals living in ground.

There are also calls for the number of brands to be reduced and the surface area branded to be kept to a minimum and only used on semi-feral fillies returning to a free-living situation.
 
I wonder what they will do with respect to hot brands that are used to denote a certain standard at inspection. Because the brands arent freely available, a horse with a certain brand eg edelweiss and GBH for GB Haflinger is shown to have been inspected and judged suitable for breeding/ a certain standard against breed type.

Im sure a freezemarked mark could be used but it would be more intrusive visually (as it would be in addition to the ID freezemark the owner might get).

It could simply be noted against the microchip number but that relies on people having readers which isnt the case currently except for vets etc.

My mare was branded with 2 hot brands as an unbroken 3 yo at her inspection shortly before I got her, but she's never reacted against eg farrier smells of smoke etc.

She has 2 brands, 1 freezemark and a microchip, I reckon she will beep if we ever walk into Tescos!

I have to say I think there are worse welfare issues out there, though I do think a single brand should be the limit and it should be specific either to inspections or to a feral herd situation, I agree that outside of this it is not necessary.
 
mulledwhine said:
Just a wondering , is freeze branding any less painful?

I dont know, hot branding does look and sound horrific, just wanting to compare the 2
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When my mare was freezemarked (four markers done one at a time), a handfull of ponynuts was enough to take her mind totally off it - so it can't be too bad as shes very sensitive. ;)
 
Just a note, the hot brands on a purebred Exmoor which has passed inspection are:

1 iron put on the shoulder & 1 on the quarters.

The near side shoulder has the exmoor 'star' & under that is the herd number, on the near side quarter is the ponies number in that herd.

On very rare occasions there might have to be 2 branding irons onto the shoulder when an old brand iron is used & the star is done independantly of the herd number below it - most brands have the fixed star & space to add the H number underneath.

The OP, whilst having animals interests at heart, must make sure that are in full possession of facts and perhaps ensure they do not give scaremongering information to gain attention.

I have never had an 'bad reaction' to hot branding, nor problems with foals/youngstock/adults after.

:)
 
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Where a herd number runs into three digits and pony numbers run into three digits (particularly with some of the moorland herds), there can be 7 marks applied to an Exmoor pony foal, when the star is included. These are applied in three separate hot brands, or four if an 'H' is used. The brands are applied for up to four seconds and scientists liken them to severe third degree burns -where the lesions last for up to 7 days. No pain relief is given.

Many people are now feeling this is unacceptable suffering, particularly for 'domestic' foals, where the practice is still allowed to take place.

The freeze branding companies don't approve of branding foals, and the Exmoor Pony Society feel that freeze branding requires the foal to be held still for too long.

There is a PETITION calling for an end to the Hot Branding of Equines in England and Wales here: http://www.change.org/petitions/defragovuk-stop-the-hot-branding-of-equines-in-england-and-wales
 
Matisse said:
Where a herd number runs into three digits and pony numbers run into three digits (particularly with some of the moorland herds), there can be 7 marks applied to an Exmoor pony foal, when the star is included. These are applied in three separate hot brands, or four if an 'H' is used.
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Please re-read my post above regarding how many times the brand is on the pony, try not to adjust the numbers to suit yourself :)

The brands are applied for up to four seconds and scientists liken them to severe third degree burns -where the lesions last for up to 7 days.
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Yes, the brands are applied for 2-3 seconds, 4 is a bit excessive & not usually done.
There has been no report published by any recognised equine 'scientist' (tho I stand to be corrected)
Yes, the scabs come off in just under a week.

No pain relief is given.
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Untrue, an antisceptic cream is applied which is instantly soothing & because it also has a local anaestetic property, this aids with healing & any pain.
The owner will often re-apply this again in the next 24 hours if a domesticated pony.

Many people are now feeling this is unacceptable suffering, particularly for 'domestic' foals, where the practice is still allowed to take place.
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Equally many people who OWN and breed Exmoor ponies are happy to carry on the way of marking the pedigree ponies so they are instantly recognised

The freeze branding companies don't approve of branding foals, and the Exmoor Pony Society feel that freeze branding requires the foal to be held still for too long.
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Having had other equines freeze branded, I would agree that the time taken is longer & more protracted than a hot brand where the numbers are all done at the same time, as the freeze brand is not usually able to be applied in 1 take of all digits.

Can I help with anything else? :)
 
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Janine Janson did this report; we saw it on our TV news here in the Westcountry. For those that are not in the SW area; Janine isn't just a numpty news reporter, she also does eventing to a high standard, and would have taken great care to thoroughly research the situation before reporting on it.

Apparently the problem with freeze-marking is that it cannot be done to foals; the report didn't say why not.

Re. the pain level of freezemarking: I had my traddie done. He's a big woossie at heart and we managed to do him OK. He had four letters/figures done; by the time we got to the last one he wasn't quite so keen, but wasn't silly about it. He creates more of a fuss to clip his legs TBH. So I don't think it is painful coz by god if it hurt him he'll create a helluva fuss and we'd have had to bung a chifney on him.

Re. the hot branding. Yes I can see there is an "abuse" issue if repeated branding is done; after the first brand the pony will know what to expect the next time and this is where the fear thing comes in. Also, one would expect that for the rest of that pony's life, whenever it smells something burning, it will naturally be fearful. So that would apply to any "hot/burning" smell, be in a bonfire, or what-have-you. So probably not a useful experience for a young pony to have.

BUT one has to bear in mind the consequences, possibly, of having a pony without clear identification. The Exmoor Pony is a distinct breed type and this breed in the past has been struggling to maintain its identity and status, similar to the Dartmoor Pony. IF hot branding means that a better class of pony is maintained, and the breed isn't allowed to develop into a cross-bred runt (like some of the hill pony's on Dartmoor who are NOT pure bred Dartmoors and basically all they're good for is meat), then we as horse lovers may just have to grit our teeth and accept that whilst hot branding isn't ideal, its far preferable to poor little ill-bred ponies that no-one wants and which are touted around the markets and trundled off to the continent for meat.

I don't know why they can't freeze-brand the foals: maybe its because their coats will grow the brand out? Anyone know???
 
TBH I'm finding the counting facts mildly interesting but not very... relevant?

I mean if you do/don't like burning a horse for identification or classification purposes then surely you still do/don't like it whether it is one or 10 brands?

Having experienced both hot (iron) and cold (liquid nitrogen) burns I know which I prefer for me. For those of a scientific bent there are various reference on pain comparisons here http://www.unce.unr.edu/publications/files/ag/2001/fs0125.pdf

I for one was pretty please to read this: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/312910.html.
 
mulledwhine said:
Just a wondering , is freeze branding any less painful?

I dont know, hot branding does look and sound horrific, just wanting to compare the 2
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I can only comment on the freeze marking which I've recently had done on my horse, with no twitch, no sedation, no pain relief local or other. And horse just stood there. I am prepared to be corrected but I don't think a horse having a hot brand would do the same....????????

Especially when you see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqZ4UUDoZGs
ouch!...........
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Apparently the problem with freeze-marking is that it cannot be done to foals; the report didn't say why not.
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As I understand it, its the time taken to apply individual numbering, whereas the hot brand goes to one place once.


Re. the hot branding. Yes I can see there is an "abuse" issue if repeated branding is done; after the first brand the pony will know what to expect the next time and this is where the fear thing comes in. Also, one would expect that for the rest of that pony's life, whenever it smells something burning, it will naturally be fearful. So that would apply to any "hot/burning" smell, be in a bonfire, or what-have-you. So probably not a useful experience for a young pony to have.
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Have not had a problem in hot-shoeing Exmoors, nor dealing with moor bred ponies when virtually unhandled - in later years coming off the moor.
Also, its amazing how many Exmoors are happy to join in with autumn bonfires :D

I don't know why they can't freeze-brand the foals: maybe its because their coats will grow the brand out? Anyone know???
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As said above, its mainly to do with the time taken for a young pony.

Also, the Purebred Exmoor is not permitted any white hairs on it, so freeze branding on a bay, dun or brown pony is not so good from visual perspective, but the main reason is the time taken.
Until the freeze branding can be done at 1 go like the hot branding, I dont think it would ever be accepted for the 6 - 12 month purebreds, unless they were older.

However times change & there will always be people wanting change too - anyone remember Fox Hunting?
 
Tickles said:
TBH I'm finding the counting facts mildly interesting but not very... relevant?

I mean if you do/don't like burning a horse for identification or classification purposes then surely you still do/don't like it whether it is one or 10 brands?
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Unfortunately Tickles, its mis-representing facts that can change legislation (and also get peoples backs up :( )

So I think its quite relevant :)
 
This information (below) appeared on another forum and might help you to understand what happens. Some people seem to be rather keen to muddy the waters surrounding these hard facts.

A lot of people have already signed the petition to STOP the Hot Branding of Equines in England and Wales (with a derogation to allow moorland breeders who genuinely need to use branding as visual ID to apply for permision, as long as the minimum brands are used). It was only set up last night.

Why would anyone fight to continue Multiple Hot Branding of pony foals when they don't need to do it, other than for 'Tradition'? Bizarre...

And these are the people who need some 'help' to understand that what they're doing is wrong.

Clarification on the Multiple Hot Brands applied to Exmoor pony foals

Up to SEVEN marks can be hot branded onto an Exmoor pony foal. They consist of:

1 - The Exmoor Pony Star brand - which is applied to the shoulder and represent the fact that the Exmoor pony is an Exmoor pony.
2 - Between one and three digits representing the Herd number (now numbers are in excess of 500)
3 - An additional 'H' brand applied next to the Herd number if that is included in the breeder's Herd number.
4 - Between one and three digits applied to the pony's rump representing the individual pony number

If the herd owner chooses to use a symbol instead of a Herd number, this is applied above the individual pony number, on the rump. In this case, the Herd number is not then branded onto the shoulder.

So if a Herd owner has a three-digit Herd number (ie, anything over Herd 99) and is into pony numbers exceeding 100 (common for the older and bigger herds), then the ponies will be branded with up to SEVEN marks.

These are applied in three or four separate sections, where numbers are screwed together onto the branding iron. So they would first brand the Star brand on to the shoulder. Then they would brand the Herd number. If there is an 'H', they would then brand that. Then they would brand the pony number onto the rump. So up to four separate sections of red hot irons are applied to the foal.

The irons are heated up from the flame from a gas cannister until they are red hot, and then applied for up to 4 seconds each, sometimes 2 or 3 seconds.

Sometimes, and I have witnessed this more than a few times, the irons are not heated up properly and the mark is part-burned on. The irons are then taken away to be heated up again and the red hot iron is then applied AGAIN onto the branded area, so the brand can be burned deeper. This is when I've seen the most extreme reactions to hot branding - such as squealing, crying, rearing, or collapsing to the ground, or fighting to get away. All the time, the foal is being forcibly restrained by a group of people. Ponies display a range of behaviours from fighting to remaining very still, where they shut down and accept that they have been 'got by predators'. In other words - they 'give in.'

The first time you go in, it's an unpleasant shock for the pony.
The second time you go in, the pony knows what's coming and it's abuse.
The third time you go in - it's torture.
If you go in more times that this - you decide what to call it...

Be in no doubt - multiple hot branding hurts. That is why we are campaigning for it only to be used where absolutely necessary for the welfare and management of free-living ponies.
* ABSOLUTELY NO domestic or 'in ground' Exmoor pony foals should be allowed to undergo this practice.
* And there is a strong case for not multiple hot branding any foals gathered from the moorland grazing areas, who are not returning to a free-living situation.
* Some of the free-living herds - particularly where there are larger numbers of ponies in herds that can get mixed up, running in hilly, woody terrain - require visual ID for their welfare and management. In these cases, we believe herd owners have a strong case for applying for a derogation to apply MINIMUM hot brands to stock returning to the moors.

As Multiple Hot Branding is very definitely NOT in the welfare interests of the domestic Exmoor pony, nor necessary for its management, there is serious concern that the practice is contravening the Permitted Mutilations regulations (Animal Welfare Act 2006).

If they are leaving their moorland grazing area, they must be micro-chipped by law.

To see what it's like for an Exmoor pony foal to be Multiple Hot branded, please see this report and footage from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-18439045

The next main period for Multiple Hot Branding is this Autumn. If you want to see the Rules the please consider signing this Petition to

PETITION: STOP the Hot Branding of Equines in England and Wales.

http://www.change.org/petitions/defragovuk-stop-the-hot-branding-of-equines-in-england-and-wales

It is already banned in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Denmark, Holland, Sweden and shortly, Germany.
 
mulledwhine said:
That was kind of my point fuzzy pony , I think freeze branding must as uncomfortable as hot ironing.
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No way. Freeze brands can be held for up to a minute on a thick skinned white horse. No horse would stand unsedated that long for a hot brand.
 
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If the German breeders can find an alternative to hot branding, I would have thought that British ones could.
My Westphalian has a brand which is utterly useless. It is only visible on wet late Spring/early Summer days. I thought for months that I had the wrong horse/passport until I happened to spot the brand, which does match the passport details. If I want a visible means of identification I will have to have her freeze-branded.
 
I live between Dartmoor & Bodmin Moor. Most ponies are of questionable quality & kept to sell to the meat man so the farmers can't spend much money on them as they have to make a profit. These animals are kept for money, not a hobby. That is those who are kept, foals are often shot as soon as they are born as it isn't economically viable to keep them. There were serious welfare issues last winter especially with Bodmin hill ponies. It can be impossible to get food to them in bad weather, you have to have experience of moors in the mid-winter to respect how wild & lethal they can be in bad weather.

If branding helps preserve the Exmoor pony, & stops it degenerating into hill ponies as has happened on Dartmoor/Bodmin, then it is worth it. I'd rather see a quality animal branded for a few seconds than a poor meat-quality one left to starve to death on the moor.
 
Pearlsasinger - you're right, it can be quite hard to read some of the brands, but even part of a brand can help a moorland farmer to identify an individual pony, which is why - in free-living situations, hot branding currently looks like the only option.

Pip6 - you're also quite right. But, Exmoor pony herds are all owned, inspected and registered and microchipped. So they would only get 'mixed' with other breeds if they were allowed to run with other breeds, and they are not. Branding them isn't going to protect them from out-crossing if their herd owners allowed the mares access to different breed stallions. So they don't need to be branded to remain pure - they need appropriate management.

However, as you can see from our campaign, we are recommending that the moorland farmers can apply for a derogation to use a herd brand where absolutely necessary, until a suitable alternative method of visual ID is found.

What is completely unacceptable is that, currently, a choice is given to all Exmoor pony breeders, including those of domestic and 'in ground' ponies - as to whether to brand or not. Multiple hot branding a domestic foal, who lives in a paddock within your property, and who is already microchipped is completely unacceptable.

You don't hot brand your puppies, just because it's 'convenient' to see your telephone number on them, do you? What we're talking about here is a major welfare issue that results in long term behaviour and physical damage to Exmoor ponies.

There is a facebook group about Hot Branding here: http://www.facebook.com/groups/329215647153569/329631593778641/?ref=notif&notif_t=group_comment
 
Matisse said:
You don't hot brand your puppies, just because it's 'convenient' to see your telephone number on them, do you? What we're talking about here is a major welfare issue that results in long term behaviour and physical damage to Exmoor ponies.
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Where is your proof of long term physical problems, or ANY behavioural problems due to hot branding, either in exmoors or in continental warmbloods, the majority of whom are hotbranded? What qualification criteria denote it as a 'major' welfare issue?

There are lots of things I do differently with horses and dogs, I don't feed my horse dog food or keep it in the house either :rolleyes:
 
rhino said:
Where is your proof of long term physical problems, or ANY behavioural problems due to hot branding, either in exmoors or in continental warmbloods, the majority of whom are hotbranded? What qualification criteria denote it as a 'major' welfare issue?

There are lots of things I do differently with horses and dogs, I don't feed my horse dog food or keep it in the house either :rolleyes:
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I have an exmoor who was hot branded as a youngster. The brand on her shoulder is constantly dry, scabby and looks very uncomfortable - covered in white hairs and is always itchy - surely that's long term physical damage?

She's also very wary around men, or tall people - I personally believe this is from when she was branded as she's had no traumatic incidents in her life other than this as far as I'm aware.
 
Thanks for the anecdote but you don't bring in legislation on the back of a story or two. Proof is needed, not anecdotes and assumptions.

I have no doubt that incorrect branding can cause problems, but then so can incorrect farriery, tack, vets....
 
Frerzebranding may be uncomfortable, and perhaps offer a low level amount of pain. Hotbranding will hurt like hell.
 
rhino said:
Thanks for the anecdote but you don't bring in legislation on the back of a story or two. Proof is needed, not anecdotes and assumptions.

I have no doubt that incorrect branding can cause problems, but then so can incorrect farriery, tack, vets....
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Anecdotes are a valid part of research - my dissertation was based on peoples personal opinions on a subject! If no-one ever gave their experiences on a matter then nothing would ever get done. I believe this whole campaign was started due to a couple of individuals personal experiences with hot branding - and look how far it's come from there, finally starting to be taken seriously :)
 
rhino said:
Where is your proof of long term physical problems, or ANY behavioural problems due to hot branding, either in exmoors or in continental warmbloods, the majority of whom are hotbranded? What qualification criteria denote it as a 'major' welfare issue?
QUOTE]

So from what I've read up to now, the hot-branding causes pain, is that right? Are you saying that it's ok to inflict pain on an animal as long as it doesn't cause any long term physical problems?

I think that branding of some sort is probably necessary for id purposes, but seven does seem excessive.
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Holly Hocks said:
So from what I've read up to now, the hot-branding causes pain, is that right? Are you saying that it's ok to inflict pain on an animal as long as it doesn't cause any long term physical problems?
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Absolutely not, but if you say something on an open forum and have no proof to back it up, you surely expect to be questioned on it. I mean, if you are willing to sign an official petition do you not want to be in possession of the facts?

Wolf tooth removal causes pain
Vaccinations cause pain
Freezebranding causes pain
Microchipping causes pain
Inappropriate feeding leading to laminitis causes horses pain
Getting left behind over a jump and catching your horse in the mouth causes it pain
According to some people on here, shoeing causes pain
Electric fences cause pain
...

We've banned hunting because it's 'cruel'. Now lots of people want racing banned, then eventing will be next. Should we even ride horses? Did you know in Germany that clipping a horse's whiskers is legislated against on the grounds of cruelty?

All very, very silly extrapolation, but can you see my point?

This thread seems to have moved on from 'multiple branding' which, like FF, I am not aware of happening in the way the OP insists it does, from banning hot branding altogether. All based on very few facts, from what I can tell.

The Permitted Mutilations Legislation has led directly to the unnecessary deaths of many animals. We have plenty of legislation in this country to prevent suffering to horses, yet it is rarely ever utilised.

In my personal experience, I have seen horses abscess badly after microchipping, I have seen horses who have remained very touchy about their freezebrands. I have never seen a horse who is touchy about a hotbrand after healing. I would like to see some well researched, documented information, not scaremongering and using emotively worded but essentially meaningless anecdotes, before I feel that I would actually be in a place to judge.
 
rhino said:
Absolutely not, but if you say something on an open forum and have no proof to back it up, you surely expect to be questioned on it. I mean, if you are willing to sign an official petition do you not want to be in possession of the facts?

Wolf tooth removal causes pain
Vaccinations cause pain
Freezebranding causes pain
Microchipping causes pain
Inappropriate feeding leading to laminitis causes horses pain
Getting left behind over a jump and catching your horse in the mouth causes it pain
According to some people on here, shoeing causes pain
Electric fences cause pain
...

We've banned hunting because it's 'cruel'. Now lots of people want racing banned, then eventing will be next. Should we even ride horses? Did you know in Germany that clipping a horse's whiskers is legislated against on the grounds of cruelty?

All very, very silly extrapolation, but can you see my point?

This thread seems to have moved on from 'multiple branding' which, like FF, I am not aware of happening in the way the OP insists it does, from banning hot branding altogether. All based on very few facts, from what I can tell.

The Permitted Mutilations Legislation has led directly to the unnecessary deaths of many animals. We have plenty of legislation in this country to prevent suffering to horses, yet it is rarely ever utilised.

In my personal experience, I have seen horses abscess badly after microchipping, I have seen horses who have remained very touchy about their freezebrands. I have never seen a horse who is touchy about a hotbrand after healing. I would like to see some well researched, documented information, not scaremongering and using emotively worded but essentially meaningless anecdotes, before I feel that I would actually be in a place to judge.
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Yes, I see what you mean - I just think that 7 (if that is what is really happening?) is excessive. But point taken over those other issues.... ( I hold my hands up as being one of those who has in the past caught one in the mouth over a jump - never my strong point, jumping!) :)
 
Holly Hocks said:
Yes, I see what you mean - I just think that 7 (if that is what is really happening?) is excessive.
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I absolutely agree, which is why I want evidence of it actually happening this way, it's genuinely not something I was aware of. I have spoken to a couple of exmoor breeders today and they both swear that they have never seen a pony branded more than 3 times, and even that is rare :)
 
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