Call to stop Multiple Hot Branding - BBC footage

Holly Hocks said:
Yes, I see what you mean - I just think that 7 (if that is what is really happening?) is excessive. But point taken over those other issues.... ( I hold my hands up as being one of those who has in the past caught one in the mouth over a jump - never my strong point, jumping!) :)
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I think some confusion has come from somewhere - it's not 7 times, it's 7 individual brands given in 3 - 4 stages (eg. my girl is number 139, so the numbers 1, 3 and 9 are made of separate brands, but all placed on her hindquarters together), so each number is a separate brand, therefore up to 7 separate wounds could be given, hence increasing the pain and the likelikhood for something to go wrong.
 
MuesliMoo - you're correct. It is up to 7 individual marks, applied in three to four brands. For example, the herd numbers are screwed onto an iron and branded together. It's all explained clearly above, as you've read.

Rhino: There is plenty of research. You can read a lot of it here: http://www.equinetourismcommunity.com/index.php?/topic/647-multiple-hot-branding-of-exmoor-ponies-must-stop/

It's good that you've spoken to a couple of Exmoor breeders, but as you yourself say, this does not constitute 'research' and the sample size is too small to give an accurate result on the behavioural implications for the breed.

Perhaps conduct a survey over a ten year period, talking to every single Exmoor pony owner, breeder or person who has ever had anything to do with an Exmoor pony in their life? The results, in our experience, lead to a trend indicating that branded Exmoor ponies show fear-based responses or other undesirable behaviours in varying degrees. That is not to say they cannot overcome the trauma and go on to become successful ponies - many do.

The question is whether applying multiple hot irons and marks to an Exmoor pony foal, without pain relief, is acceptable in this day and age? And should we be doing it to domestic Exmoor pony foals at all - who do not need it as they are microchipped?

Scientists, behaviourists and equine welfare and veterinary organisations think not.
 
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This BBC news footage shows the hot branding of a pony receiving SIX marks applied as follows with red hot irons:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-18439045

1 brand to the shoulder which is the Exmoor Pony Star
2 marks, branded together in one 'brand' to the shoulder which is the herd ID
3 marks, branded together to the rump, which is the pony ID

= 6 marks, applied in three brands.

However, branding them all together does not make them one mark, and a three mark brand still burns holes into three separate sites on the body.

If the herd number runs to three digits, and the pony number runs to three digits, that, plus the star = 7 marks
 
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Matisse said:
What we're talking about here is a major welfare issue that results in long term behaviour and physical damage to Exmoor ponies.
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Please provide proof yet another of your erronous statements :rolleyes:

FWIW, Our family has had Exmoor ponies since the early 70's.
Over the years I have had many for breaking for numerous owners, have bred a few & retained several, the very last going over rainbow bridge earlier this year.

I have NEVER had any 'behavioural' or physical problems with any of the ponies arising from branding.
Now, I've had unbroken adult Anchor ponies- yes those off the moor, also Hawkwell too as well as other moorbred & reared.
There have been numerous upcountry ponies - Murrayton, Blackthorn, Greenlease, Hammingden et al, and will re-iterate, that I've never seen problems or had pony issues relating to branding.
Many of these ponies have been pony-clubbed by children, bred from, or competed to v high levels.

Not one has had a problem from branding. (edited to add: Calculating up, I've backed in excess of 30 registered branded ponies & have had in our yard over 40 +) So perhaps have a reasonable feel for them & their mannerismns.......... :rolleyes:

You keep on about multiple brands - this is very very rare, so do be careful (as I said in a previous post) about handling the truth in a careless fashion.

To anyone else, its up to you to make up your own minds :) - I'm actually very ambivalent about it - keep it or lose it = not bothered.

What I am bothered about, is misleading untruths being peddled for sensationalism. It appears the more that they are peddaled then the more they might be believed.
 
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So it's one hot brand made up of 3 seperate irons used sometimes twice? Not 7 seperate hot brands used once each...

No I really don't have a problem with it and would rather cause a moments pain to keep track of a good healthy herd than end up with in bred meat ponies
 
Matisse said:
Perhaps conduct a survey over a ten year period, talking to every single Exmoor pony owner, breeder or person who has ever had anything to do with an Exmoor pony in their life? The results, in our experience, lead to a trend indicating that branded Exmoor ponies show fear-based responses or other undesirable behaviours in varying degrees. That is not to say they cannot overcome the trauma and go on to become successful ponies - many do.

Scientists, behaviourists and equine welfare and veterinary organisations think not.
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Some may well agree, but again your blanket representation is erroneous and misleading.

Why should I carry out a survey? I'm not the one wanting to change things, or asking people to sign a petition... I'm not even sure HHO is really an acceptable platform for political lobbying really, but if the information given is factually correct it doesn't really bother me. I don't think it is though.
 
Research has been carried out in Germany.

"Hans-Joachim Gotz, DVM, president of the German Veterinary Association agreed with the animal activists, “Hot iron branding is no longer consistent with modern equine welfare standards.”

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/cruel-hot-branding-of-horses-banned-in-germany.html#ixzz1y3kgIHYx

Apparently many Warmblood breeders were against the ban because they felt that a visual method of identification was better than a microchip. As I said earlier, my Westphalian's brand is no deterrent to a thief, it can only been seen AT ALL in late Spring/early Summer when it is wet. It is completely invisible to the casual observer at any other time and almost invisible to those of us who know the mare well.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Research has been carried out in Germany.

"Hans-Joachim Gotz, DVM, president of the German Veterinary Association agreed with the animal activists, “Hot iron branding is no longer consistent with modern equine welfare standards.”

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/cruel-hot-branding-of-horses-banned-in-germany.html#ixzz1y3kgIHYx

Apparently many Warmblood breeders were against the ban because they felt that a visual method of identification was better than a microchip. As I said earlier, my Westphalian's brand is no deterrent to a thief, it can only been seen AT ALL in late Spring/early Summer when it is wet. It is completely invisible to the casual observer at any other time and almost invisible to those of us who know the mare well.
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However, there is nothing in the link that mentions long term trauma, behaviour or physical problems, which the OP is keen to promote as being a big problem.

The link mentions peoples opinions, these are not facts.

My issue is with non-proven or blatantly untrue statements as given by the OP
 
M_G said:
So it's one hot brand made up of 3 seperate irons used sometimes twice? Not 7 seperate hot brands used once each...

No I really don't have a problem with it and would rather cause a moments pain to keep track of a good healthy herd than end up with in bred meat ponies
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No it's not. They can go into the pony up to three or four times, with red hot irons - one straight after the other. The total number of marks can number up to seven. See the above posts.

Also, if they don't heat up the irons hot enough, so it doesn't burn in deeply enough, they part burn. Then they go and heat up the irons again and go in and burn onto the partly burned site again. That happens quite often.

That hurts.

I read through everything posted on here and no, also, there is nothing incorrect in my posts. We are also Exmoor pony breeders with decades of experience of Exmoors, as well as many other equestrian interests including hunting, eventing and showing. But why it's necessary to have that history and heritage, I don't know. This situation can be understood by an educated person who has been 'in the breed' for 5 minutes. Or who is not even in the breed and looking in from the 'outside'.
 
Matisse said:
This situation can be understood by an educated person who has been 'in the breed' for 5 minutes. Or who is not even in the breed and looking in from the 'outside'.
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Only if that 'educated' person is willing to pick through the 'research' and only take the bits that they agree with.

Ignoring the fact that most of the welfare agencies gave their opinions as to the banning of hot branding in Scotland only, where hot branding was never routinely carried out anyway. It is unwise to extrapolate this to suit your own agenda.

Ignoring the research that shows that microchipping elicits exactly the same pain response as hot branding.

Ignoring where the RSPCA also cautions against the use of freezebranding as it is a painful procedure.

From the first few pages of the link you gave me, I see a letter from an individual vet, a link to a couple of blog posts made by horse owners, several 'dead' links, and a link to a list of tortures used in Medieval custom.. Nothing that seems to show any evidence of the 'major' welfare issue you claim.

If the problem is hot branding being carried out badly, and by untrained personnel, then I would totally agree that changes need to be made. I would want some better research before I would be happy to petition an MP to ban the practice totally.
 
The Fuzzy Furry said:
There have been numerous upcountry ponies - Murrayton,... that I've never seen problems or had pony issues relating to branding.
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I have a Murrayton mare! Her brands are the first place she itches. When I bought her she had wounds on all of them and. She has a diamond, plus a H, plus her herd number and her individual number.

If I understand correctly, she therefore had 5 marks applied in 3 brands. None of which are readable even up close unless you clip. You can make them out in July if you really concentrate. What an utter waste. My other 'exmoor type' (he had white hairs, so was not accepted as a foal) has a freezemark, readable at distance in all but mid-winter (one of the main arguments for branding is for identity in the running herds). Chloe WAS nervous of farriers (but not smoke in general - but let's face it, a bonfire smells VERY different to burning flesh or keratin).

I've never seen the branding 'live' so to speak, only from footage taken by the pro-branding camp. The reaction of the foals and older ponies is enough for me to take the stance that this is unacceptable. I don't need a study, dissertation or a forum post to tell me that. I've got eyes and a conscience.

There is also a vast difference between ill-fitting tack (and therefore unintentional suffering) and deliberate harming of an animal for the convenience of humans. In any case, comparing one to the other doesn't make it less painful to the pony.

Lastly you don't need to be in any breed circle for even 30 seconds to recognise an acute pain response or to fail to read a supposedly clear brand. My Mum can do that and she's only ever sat on an exmoor once.
 
I find it interesting that England and Wales haven't banned it when Scotland have.

Personally, I've had a warmblood with a brand and my current horse is meant to have 2 brands (one on his neck, one on his thigh) however all I can see is a slight mark on his neck which rather than numbers (as written in his passport), it actually seems to spell "RIP" which is a bit worrying!! He's grey so perhaps it doesn't show as well but the brands are invisible pretty much.

I had my first pony freeze branded and I remember vividly how upset he was about it, to the point that the lady couldn't hold the brands on long enough so again his numbers/letters aren't very clear - I can't tell what they read so pointless!

I'm against both methods. Think they're outdated as we now have microchips for ID.
 
In this day and age I find it hard to believe there's no alternative; the footage showed a practice that is pretty barbaric. I shall be signing the petition, scientific evidence of long term suffering notwithstanding. Honestly, if people require scientific proof of everything before they act society and the economy would collapse within a day :rolleyes:.
 
And worse would happen if everyone responded in a hysterical, knee-jerk reaction, without being in possession of the facts.

It doesn't matter to me anyway, it's banned in this country, but I don't think it's too much to ask for people to not use misleadingly emotive posting and make claims which can't be backed up.

If you don't like the idea of hot branding, sign the petition. Will be interesting to see what's next to be banned though...
 
Thanks TwoStroke, MagicMelon, FranSurrey and AmyMay

Rhino, you have a good point, but in this campaign, no one is hysterical or having a knee-jerk reaction. This is the result of many years of research and experience. And no claims are being made that can't be backed up. The people involved in this campaign are farmers, breeders, producers, behaviourists, equine professionals, equine trainers and veterinary surgeons. There is a wealth of history, experience and knowledge about the Exmoor breed particularly within its supporters.

It is strongly felt that in this day and age, we should not be multiple hot branding any equine, and certainly not domestic pony foals already microchipped 'just because it's tradition'. It may make it easier to identify a pony visually, but we don't allow hot branding for any other animal in England and Wales- so why horses and ponies?

You can't justify not banning this outdated and painful practice just because some other unrelated practice may be banned in the future. Multiple Hot Branding needs reform and that's what we're asking for.


PETITION: Please do help to make change by signing this petition to STOP The Multiple Hot Branding of Equines in England and Wales, if you can: http://www.change.org/petitions/defragovuk-stop-the-multiple-hot-branding-of-equines-in-england-and-wales
 
In just one week since it started, there have already been 7,600 signatures on the Stop Multiple Hot Branding of Equines in England and Wales petition!

Thank you to everyone who has voted so far for your support in this important reform,which asks for all unnecessary hot branding to stop, while supporting the moorland farmers of semi-feral herds (with minimal branding) while a suitable alternative is found.
 
The Petition to Stop The Multiple Hot Branding of Equines in England and Wales now has 12,200 signatures and has been well reported in the South West Regional press, as well as by the BBC.

The All Party Parliamentary Group for the Horse met on Tuesday 26 June and the subject of multiple hot branding was discussed. Representatives included the British Horse Society, British Equine Veterinary Association, World Horse Welfare, Blue Cross, RSPCA, British Horseracing Authority, MPs and the meeting was chaired by Baroness Mallalieu.

With regard to the Multiple Hot Branding of Exmoor ponies, the decision was made to see what guidance can be given before this year's ponies come to be branded (this autumn).

The interest and guidance of the APPGH is much welcomed and we look forward to improvement in the welfare of Exmoor ponies particularly.
 
Matisse said:
You don't hot brand your puppies, just because it's 'convenient' to see your telephone number on them, do you? What we're talking about here is a major welfare issue that results in long term behaviour and physical damage to Exmoor ponies.
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no but you tattoo your greyhounds

maybe we could eartag the ponies like we do sheep and cattle..
 
Unfortunately, ponies have very sensitive ears and ear-tagging is extremely painful and makes them traumatised and head shy - and the tags can get ripped out. So the practice is illegal for equines. Collars can come off (they're losing 66% of them in the New Forest according to a recent report). Paint marking is an option but needs to be reapplied more than once a year, which is how often the semi-feral ponies are usually gathered. Freeze branding can't be done on foals. There are no long range microchip readers and main and tail cutting can be good for guidance but isn't perfect. So for semi-feral ponies, at the moment, a hot brand looks like the only answer.

We're campaigning for them to stop hot branding with up to 7 digits (third degree burns with no pain relief) and reduce it to one herd/pony ID (they are all micro-chipped). And for them to stop all unnecessary multiple hot branding of domestic ponies.

We're asking for the Exmoor Pony Society to only hot brand ponies they need to, and not to brand ones they don't need to. And when they do brand - only do it for basic and essential ID - and not to the point of torture...
 
Thats a sensible requirement if they can get the same sort of irons as the warmblood people use they could get the breed symbol and the numbers under it with one touch. I have seen many done abroad and the foals are not at all worried about it in fact they are a lot more likely to shoot away from the chip than the brand. Lets hope they see sense and change to a single touch.
 
crabbymare said:
Thats a sensible requirement if they can get the same sort of irons as the warmblood people use they could get the breed symbol and the numbers under it with one touch. I have seen many done abroad and the foals are not at all worried about it in fact they are a lot more likely to shoot away from the chip than the brand. Lets hope they see sense and change to a single touch.
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Yes, a single symbol used on the semi-feral foals returning to the moors after gathering would certainly be a massive welfare improvement from the current up to seven hot branded marks applied to them in three segments. Causing this many third degree burns to a forcibly restrained foal is damaging and cruel.

It would help the case of the moorland farmers to retain an essential brand, if the hot branding of all domestic Exmoor pony foals was ceased completely.

Here's new footage of the BBC Spotlight news report on multiple hot branding of Exmoor ponies, uploaded yesterday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNG_9YNHelE
 
People who are concerned about hot branding should see it done by an expert before commenting i have seen hundreds of foals branded and am amazed how little reaction most show. I dread having my foals micro chipped this year because you have to restrain the foal for chipping but not for branding
 
sywell said:
People who are concerned about hot branding should see it done by an expert before commenting i have seen hundreds of foals branded and am amazed how little reaction most show. I dread having my foals micro chipped this year because you have to restrain the foal for chipping but not for branding
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I've seen plenty of hot brandings of Exmoor pony foals and as they are branded with up to seven marks, they are very definitely restrained, quite often by up to four people. Their heads are often tied tightly to a gate or ring and they are held against a hard surface or barrier of some kind. While some may stand reasonably still, I've seen plenty struggle, fight, squeal and even collapse onto the ground, particularly when the irons are not hot enough and have to be re-heated and re-applied to a partially burned area. Just about every foal reacts negatively to the third set of hot irons going into its rump, after having had two sets of branding irons applied already to its sensitive scapula (shoulder area). The expression in their eyes gives a good indication of how they're feeling. Remember, it is the survival instinct of horses to hide the fact they are experiencing pain wherever possible - they are prey animals. The above video will give you an example of the practice.
 
Foals are more likely than older horses to freeze when stressed, thus to human eyes appearing to 'not react'. In evolutionary terms this is the safest response for a young animal to make, reducing respiration rate, heart rate and reduce blood pressure, thus making the animal no threat and possibly allowing it to not be found by a predator. I see no long term purpose of hot branding. One of our mares has a brand, which cannot be seen unless she has a clip growing out and gets wet! The brand is large and has a 'design' and a two digit number.
 
All irons used for Hot Branding are freely available and in the hands of any man jack who wants to use them. It is ludicrous to think that simplistic tools such as letters or shapes are not freely available. Microchip technology is considerably more sophisticated and cannot be forged without some very expensive kit and even then it is possible to discover whether a microchip has been removed or not. Again why be cruel. All Fell ponies have to pass an inspection by a vet yet none are Hot Branded for that purpose. Nor are they Hot Branded to identify them when extensively grazed. Again why is it then necessary to Hot Brand this one or that one with even one Hot Brand? If others can work successfully with the greatest humanity why not those on Exmoor/Dartmoor and in The New Forest. What exactly is their problem?
 
http://www.facebook.com/#!/STOP.HOT.BRANDING[/IMG]

Please see what Hot Branding looks like
Please see herds of extensively grazed black ponies without Hot Brands NO Fell Ponies are Hot Branded for identification purposes. NO inspected stallions are Hot Branded. So Why Hot Brand Why the cruelty
 
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