Calling all Laminitis Experts - Is there hope when all hope seems gone?

The pea gravel looks interesting - never heard of that before. Does it hurt the horses to lie down on it?

OP, has the vet spoken to you about sectioning the check (in front legs) and accessory (in hinds) ligaments to relieve a bit of tension on the DDFT, and therefore P3? Not sure if it is too far progressed for that, or what the long term consequences of it are :(
 
With regard to lying down on pea gravel, the horse lies down a lot, often flat out. I've spent hours in the stable with horses who are suffering from laminitis and tend to sit in it myself, so I can say, first hand, it is very comfy.
We had one case in winter, I remember and that horse was rugged, but mostly grass induced laminitis in spring or summer, you don't need to rug.
As I say if your in the stable for a long while with them it is really nice to sit in.
 
Oberon said:
TBF Leviathan - you did start this bunfight by ridiculing Pale Rider's advice on using pea gravel :(.
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Ok so I think pea stuff is not the way to go IMO , maybe I could have worded it better. :)


But it is below the belt for him to continually hound me of my treatment on my mare.

I have never and would never tell another member on here their treatment is poor their vet care is poor in the way he does as if I don't know what is best for my mare who I have had 22 1/2 years and know inside and out know every intimate feeling and off colour etc that she does or makes. I know ever minor bad step she took with the CCTV which is on 24.7 recording, which is why we kept on top and knew instantly what to do or start antibiotics. I would be the first to PTS if I knew it was to much or she could not cope. I have PTS 2 others who I had no option to do so.
I might not agree with someone methods but that's up to me. No one knows the FULL extent of what I have done for my mare. NO one I repeat.

Laminitis is a distressing and upsetting enough disease without someone degrading - publicly humiliating - and passing judgement in this way.


Yes we can disagree on certain subjects. You say I don't agree with this that or the other but this is pushing things too far.:(.
 
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This is a very emotive subject to me having just lost my lovely mare to this hateful disease. She had 11 weeks of boxrest on sugar free soaked hay diet, but with rotation and sinking her pain continued even on her NSAIDs. My vet's poor prognosis and my mare's disintegrating sole decided the kindest fate for her.
We can all read about success stories and horses brought back from the brink and equally the many sad cases where the horses did not make it.
There are too many variables for anyone to judge another - we all love our horses and want what is best for them. I read about the TB in last week's H&H and I can honestly say that I wouldn't have taken that course, inspite of the outcome. I wasn't prepared to box my horse anywhere for fear of her pedal bone penetrating her sole.

My horse had laminitis through stress - she was herded around her track by a new livery she had seemingly really gelled with, on her feet which were sore from the start of a bf journey and that caused a really dire laminitic attack almost instantly. So my horse was not overweight or overfed and never has been; so noone can say generally that 'owners need to be more clued up'. Stress laminitis in horses is not that common. My mare wasn't a stress head - she was such a quiet and sweet mare.
To some the idea of boxrest for a horse is terrible - I agree - I have a young WB that hates being stabled. He is like a caged beast in a stable and were he to get an illness that required more than a short period of confinement I would have him pts - no question of anything else.
My mare though - she could cope with boxrest - quiet, always easy.
I know that Leviathan has given her mare the ultimate in care on her boxrest - actually something that very few would have the time, money or patience to do for any length of time; complete dedication. That is not right for everyone and I imagine anyone with a horse on livery would not be able to consider longterm boxrest.

The truth is everyone has ideas of how to handle things and I am very open minded and I immediately asked a kinesiologist for help - she advised me on the fresh detoxifying herbs I should pick and offer my mare daily. My vet was open to my ideas and the things I wanted to try. However I would never in my quest for healing my horses disregard my vet. I have questionned their advice and asked them to investigate my ideas, but they to me are my ultimate guide to decide what is right for my horses.

In my opinion you listen to your vet and you make a joint decision. We can all question until we are blue in the face why it happened, how long should we continue to try, but until you walk a mile in my boots or the person you are judging - you cannot make that call.
 
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Leviathan said:
erm I think I know that . But come on stones under an already sore foot madness.

Shaving the way to go full stop.
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Honestly I know it seems counterintuitive but the two lami horses I saw sought out the pea gravel to stand on I am not sure but I think the idea is it supports the foot.having seen these ones I would fill my stable with pea gravel if one of mine got lami .if it did not work well move next door and send a day digging it out.
 
YasandCrystal said:
This is a very emotive subject to me having just lost my lovely mare to this hateful disease. She had 11 weeks of boxrest on sugar free soaked hay diet, but with rotation and sinking her pain continued even on her NSAIDs. My vet's poor prognosis and my mare's disintegrating sole decided the kindest fate for her.
We can all read about success stories and horses brought back from the brink and equally the many sad cases where the horses did not make it.
There are too many variables for anyone to judge another - we all love our horses and want what is best for them. I read about the TB in last week's H&H and I can honestly say that I wouldn't have taken that course, inspite of the outcome. I wasn't prepared to box my horse anywhere for fear of her pedal bone penetrating her sole.

My horse had laminitis through stress - she was herded around her track by a new livery she had seemingly really gelled with, on her feet which were sore from the start of a bf journey and that caused a really dire laminitic attack almost instantly. So my horse was not overweight or overfed and never has been; so noone can say generally that 'owners need to be more clued up'. Stress laminitis in horses is not that common. My mare wasn't a stress head - she was such a quiet and sweet mare.
To some the idea of boxrest for a horse is terrible - I agree - I have a young WB that hates being stabled. He is like a caged beast in a stable and were he to get an illness that required more than a short period of confinement I would have him pts - no question of anything else.
My mare though - she could cope with boxrest - quiet, always easy.
I know that Leviathan has given her mare the ultimate in care on her boxrest - actually something that very few would have the time, money or patience to do for any length of time; complete dedication. That is not right for everyone and I imagine anyone with a horse on livery would not be able to consider longterm boxrest.

The truth is everyone has ideas of how to handle things and I am very open minded and I immediately asked a kinesiologist for help - she advised me on the fresh detoxifying herbs I should pick and offer my mare daily. My vet was open to my ideas and the things I wanted to try. However I would never in my quest for healing my horses disregard my vet. I have questionned their advice and asked them to investigate my ideas, but they to me are my ultimate guide to decide what is right for my horses.

In my opinion you listen to your vet and you make a joint decision. We can all question until we are blue in the face why it happened, how long should we continue to try, but until you walk a mile in my boots or the person you are judging - you cannot make that call.
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^^^ this is exactly how I feel. We only box rested for 3 weeks on soaked hay etc but she got worse and we made the decision to PTS due to her age and cushings. She had a great life and I feel we made absolutely the right decision. I would respect anyone elses decision too though, and it is not my place to judge someone elses treatment of their horse. OP I hope you have success but I also hope you feel able to follow your own judgement.
 
Leviathan said:
I don't see how any one could set a time limit on something like laminitis.
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I disagree - when a horse is in pain, as the OP says hers is, then you have to consider how long it is fair to keep a horse in such a state if there is no improvement, despite various treatments.

However, at the moment, there are still many options open to the OP in terms of treatment, and I would definitely echo the suggestion of removal of the Imprints as they seem to have increased the horse's discomfort.
 
YasandCrystal said:
To some the idea of boxrest for a horse is terrible - I agree - I have a young WB that hates being stabled. He is like a caged beast in a stable and were he to get an illness that required more than a short period of confinement I would have him pts - no question of anything else.
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^^This^^

I've managed to catch my cushings pony before a full laminitis attack started simply by him looking short in his front legs on the lunge and him edging off the gravel on our drive. Despises box rest, launches himself over the door and lasted 3 days last time before he had a meltdown.

This time I instantly chose to put him on a bare paddock and thanks to the rain, more a mud paddock. He is next to his herd and I'm so proud of him for being a star patient compared to how stressed he got last time. Has soaked hay and a bit of straw, and is eating piles of nettles that I chop daily. He has pony nuts sprinkled round the paddock so he can sniff them out, he's now having magnesium oxide and has my cob for company at night. He comes in for a couple of hours to have a lie down on dry ground!

I have *touch wood* been incredibly lucky and already within 4 days is trotting round his paddock, and a lot brighter in himself. He will stay on this routine for another week or 2 and have a check up with the vet and have his bloods tested to see if the pergolide is correct.

He was the ideal weight and despite being muzzled 24/7 we just got caught out. I was more expecting a fellow livery's grossly obese welsh cob to have it but it seems the less ppl care about their horse's health the more luck they have!
 
what i ment. tgm. is no one can tell an individual how long before they terminate treatment. only the owner can decide this .;).
 
Leviathan said:
Why not go the whole way and use loads of ball joints?? that way you could push the horse round the stable he would not have to walk?:rolleyes:

Seriously I would VERY wary about using stones in the way of pea shingle. I mean if your feet hurt that much would you go walking across a drive with pea shingle??? I think not.


I will pm you OP.:)
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I thought this too when I posted on another laminitic thread and I contacted my vet and he agreed that pea gravel is good for lamintics. Ideas are changing all the time about this disease and I really feel that what works for one horse won't necessarily work for another but its worth a try surely.
 
Interesting use of pea gravel. The ability for the horse to adopt an angle which relieves stress on foot sounds logical. We always used deep peat (not very ecological but nice and springy and supportive).

Agree carefully limited amounts of soaked hay is the way to go on the feed. Can help if you can feed it 4 or more times a day so that they don't pig the lot and then stand about anxiously for hours waiting for more. We used bute as a pain killer (the old fashioned sort not the modern substitute).

Daughter's old pony developed it at 12 when a loan owner turned her out on dairy pasture. We found her with colic from the pain, rocked back abnd quite incapable fo taking a step. To be honest I thought she would die but emergency treatment sorted the pain and the colic so we trailered her to her box, having no option.

She had very serous rotation, subsequently deformation of the hoof into the classic laminitic shape with grossly separated white lines, weird action as she stepped as though she was right by her pedal bones but was wrong by her hoof if you see what I mean. The (then) vet considered she would be "no use" thereafter, even tho' we had stopped the deterioration by arresting the active laminitis, but our elderly farrier patiently worked on feet for over a year and eventually she came sound, her feet were a normal shape (save for a few wavey lines), her action recovered and she went showing and pony club again. Thereafter it was 14 years of very careful watching diet, rain on grass (run and bring Mai in somebody -NOW) for some reason it always set her off, and instant action if she became the slightest bit footy or gained a millemetre or two on the neck. Made it to 28 and did several other kids through pony club - usually training them to sit a buck or two, expect flat out gallop in bending races, and to develop extreme knotting skills to prevent escape.

However each animal is different and some respond to treatment and some continue to progress in a downward spiral. We put a 14 year old TB down who hated box rest but who immediately (within hours) flared up into a new attack once turned out into the half acre invalid paddock. It is, I think, a judgment call for the owner who knows their horse to decide whether it is in the animals interest to continue with treatment. Provided that they can keep the animal comfortable and can get good veterinary/farriery advice then the time they are prepared and able to give to the problem is their affair.
 
Hello,

Sorry I have not read all the posts, and that your horse is suffering.

My pony developed laminitis about 5 weeks ago and we are having success with a drug called Metformin. Pony was blood tested for insulin resistance and the results came back positive. I don't know the exact reasons why, but I read that 90% of laminitis cases are caused my high insulin levels in the blood due to insulin resistance. Might be worth asking your vet for their opinion.

Laminitis is truly awful.

Good vibes for your horse.
 
^^agreed. You need to be having a long and honest chat with your vet about this.

If they doubt a chance of a full and happy life then you need to make the best choice for your horse.

Lami is really distressing, my gelding got it last year and when we took him for xrays, i didnt think he would be coming home.
 
It is very individual. I work with a lami that technically probably shouldn't be with us at all. June 2010 17 degrees rotation and loss of 1/3 pedal bone in one front and a bit in the other front too.

But just this weekend this horse has qualified for Hickstead and judges frequently comment on the quality of the horse's movement.
 
LucyPriory said:
It is very individual. I work with a lami that technically probably shouldn't be with us at all. June 2010 17 degrees rotation and loss of 1/3 pedal bone in one front and a bit in the other front too.

But just this weekend this horse has qualified for Hickstead and judges frequently comment on the quality of the horse's movement.
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Good grief!

With such bone loss - that is impressive!
 
Haven't read all the posts but will make commnets about my own situation. Horse had lami aattack last Oct, for 3rd time but def worst xrayed fronts... rotation & separation. Shod with leather pads & normal shoes no toe clips. Box Rest on deep shavings, bute, ACP, soaked hay, a little chaff & quick beet to add drugs to. He was allowed out after about 8 weeks for tie up while I mucked out. At 10 weeks I rode round farm at walk. 12 weeks half hour turn out, every other day, and riding at walk on soft ground. Re X-rayed in april. Improving but still showing seperation.

now.... sound, still wearing pads, still some seperation but it is growing down. 4-5 hours turnout with muzzle. He's competing again & is happy. My vet did suggest he might not recover but PTS was never mentioned she just said we'll see. Reading some posts makes me realise how lucky we've been. But there is hope, I wish you luck.
 
Leviathan said:
As you know my mare is on box rest 1 year nearly

I am glad your horse is on the mend but to be honest if I had to keep my mare in for 12 months her life would not be worth living and I would PTS. This being the case then I would be more than willing to try Pale Rider's suggestion of pea garvel and intend doing so. My mare does not have laminitis at the moment and hasn't had an attack for 18 months or so but I am putting a pea gravel area outside my stable block. I hope I never have to test it but if I do will let you all know how it goes. As I have said before horses with laminitis react to different methods of treatment so all ideas should be looked at but personally could not and would not box rest a horse for 12 months.
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Sorry to hear about your boy :( There was an a rticle in last week's H&H about recovery from bad cases of laminitis. Might be worth a read?
 
I kept asking myself when mysti had laminitis how far I could push it (treatment) until it became too much. Luckily for us both she didn't have any rotations and was sound in a month :) but I sort of made a plan in my head for any possibilities after reading lots about laminitis/success stories and worst case scenarios etc.
I decided if it was rotations/sinking I would try shoes/pads etc but I wouldn't push it any further if she gave up. I feel for anyone in this position, it's not an easy descion to make whether to carry on or not but I don't think I could personally go over 6 months of box rest and pain. I honestly felt more sick,drained and tired those few weeks seeing her in pain than I did when I was in hospital myself!!
 
montyforever said:
I kept asking myself when mysti had laminitis how far I could push it (treatment) until it became too much. Luckily for us both she didn't have any rotations and was sound in a month :) but I sort of made a plan in my head for any possibilities after reading lots about laminitis/success stories and worst case scenarios etc.
I decided if it was rotations/sinking I would try shoes/pads etc but I wouldn't push it any further if she gave up. I feel for anyone in this position, it's not an easy descion to make whether to carry on or not but I don't think I could personally go over 6 months of box rest and pain. I honestly felt more sick,drained and tired those few weeks seeing her in pain than I did when I was in hospital myself!!
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I agree. Even though my mare is excellent on box rest, the most she has ever done was ten weeks for a kick to her hock which punctured her joint capsule. She only had 3 weeks for lami so made a fast recovery. But seeing her in pain that first week was unbearable. Then once she seemed comfortable I just wanted her out of there fast. I think she would close down if kept on box rest for months. I love her more than I have loved any other animal but if it meant a really long stretch inside for her, then I would PTS. She is such a bright and intelligent horse, that I think it would be torture for her to stay in for that long. I hope I never have to make that decision. Problem is, that even if they come right, how long before they succumb again? It's a cruel disease.
 
montyforever said:
I kept asking myself when mysti had laminitis how far I could push it (treatment) until it became too much. Luckily for us both she didn't have any rotations and was sound in a month :) but I sort of made a plan in my head for any possibilities after reading lots about laminitis/success stories and worst case scenarios etc.
I decided if it was rotations/sinking I would try shoes/pads etc but I wouldn't push it any further if she gave up. I feel for anyone in this position, it's not an easy descion to make whether to carry on or not but I don't think I could personally go over 6 months of box rest and pain. I honestly felt more sick,drained and tired those few weeks seeing her in pain than I did when I was in hospital myself!!
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That's fine Montyforever I respect your views.

Most of the post here are
"I don't think I would box rest a year"

But my recovery was solely base on how MY mare coped with the pain and being in all this time.
She coped 95%. I said to the vet any time she gives up or lies down over 2 hrs or the pedal bone penetrates the sole that I will do the best thing for her.

The spark in her eyes was there although in the background she had her offish days coping with pain. But as soon as she heard me come out she came over to door - whinnied to her son when he went out to the field or came back from a ride. Whinnied to me when She knew I went round to get her hay.

Her recovery has been long but all the time she did not want to give up ( AND I can say this hand on heart )she NEVER showed things were to much or she could not cope, I know my mare inside and out every slightest extra hobble in the day. She was 15 months old when I bought her now age 24.

My vet said she depended on my observation and CCTV to see any minor changes. This is why we could keep on top of things infection etc.

Yes allot would not go this far for their horse for money reasons their views on box rest over a long time what ever. Most are on livery so there's that on top of treatment.

I know for fact (Despite a few blinkered views)

That my mares recovery WAS due to

  1. Vet care (being there for me ANY time I rang) being day or night , stopping off on the way to or back from clinic.
  2. My care nursing her buying anything she needed bedding etc poulticing 2x daily when abscess was here. Up to midnight many nights
  3. My husband for funding the care
  4. Farrier for his trimming and glue on shoes which aided recovery

Even tho a WBP said my mare's recovery was not a result of it.

Then answer this left without vet / my care?
  1. How would her 2 sever abscess have cleared up if the vet had not x rayed found the abscess and put her on antibiotics??
  2. Dremeled a hole to let gas pressure escape?
  3. Septic pedal bone infection how would this have cleared out without the knowledge from my vets of what x 3 drugs to give and my care to pay and give it and it was £££ a bottle.

How many horses does any one know (and don't give me the oh I would PTS:rolleyes:) That recovered from pedal bone infection without surgery??

This also would not have cleared up without care, so to say it was not the result of my care and vets care the person is misguided.


I appreciate everyone has views on trimming feet care etc but no one knows everything which is why we ask for help. No one on here knows the the individual horse's temperament and has no right to judge someone on their care of their horse. They can have an opinion yes we all do.

My mares son WOULD NOT cope with box rest for long so he would not be here if this happened to him.

My mare is on hand walk even after 12 months box rest IN A HEAD COLLAR yes shock shock mad. NO she walks out quiet as a mouse that's her temperament. Will even stand ( before the walk outs) with the rope hanging down while farrier trimmed her how many horses would do that?
Even now when I tie her outside her box to change bandage (safety pro caution protecting the abscess hole which is dry and hard) she is trying to get back in her stable she loves it .


I am in no way boasting on my mare being so kind and sweet like yasandcrystals mare. But there are horses out there who cope brilliantly with box rest even tho some humans think its a big no no for long term box rest and the end of the day if the horse is coping with long term box rest that's what matters since its the horse who has to live in isn't it??.

Just remember this :

My mares well being was put first EVERY TIME , she did not want to give up she is a fighter. This is why we carried on she wanted to live so I did what is best for her and every one that knows me who saw my mare visited my mare did massage on my mare acupuncture on her. Will be proof enough that I would NOT keep her going if there wasn't a chance or she could not cope.

Would I do it again
With this mare again if sh wanted me to yes!
another horse that could not cope NO!

I know every case of laminitis is different etc all I want to do is share my experiences on here for those who want to see my pictures read my story etc. be a shoulder to cry on - sounding board - pm support. Its up to the member if they want to try what we did.
Maybe some should try be a shoulder for others instead of judging them humiliating them.


If only some of you met this mare her little quirky ways backing in to you for you to scratch her boobies or pushing you saying hurry dinner please etc , you wouldn't be so quick to accuse me of going on to long.


Yes its cost us mega bucks but she is 6 ft from my front door 15 by 15 stable with 24 cctv to monitor she gets anything she needs including now a window so she can view out 24 7.

BUT this mare is worth EVERY PENNY. She means more than life to me. Which is prob why I get defensive about her when some %%% tells me I am not caring for her and my care / vet is poor.

and lastly I repeat she would not be here had it not for the care - her feet being like concrete.

Now enough is enough to those who did please don't criticize me anymore.:)
 
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Leviathan, I see only one person on this thread who has critisised you, and that was in response to you poo pooing the idea of pea gravel. The others are talking about their horses and what they would do. Your case has raised questions which has sparked a discussion on what others would do with their horses. This is not the same thing as critisising you about what you did with your horse. Obviously you have a horse in a million there. I remember trying to walk my boy out after only four weeks box rest. I had to use a rope halter with a twelve inch rope. I really hope your girl gets through this and has done her time. :)
 
Whatever the damage to the feet, I am confident, that given the right conditions, most horses can make a speedy recovery, and in one or two growth cycles restore their feet and reverse the pedal bone rotation.
With regard to box rest issues, at the start of an attack, particularly if its severe, all they want to do is lie down, I like to keep the stable doors open so they can come out when they feel like it.
This sort of gentle movement, encourages the hoof to regenerate lamina and speeds recovery.
 
Wagtail said:
Leviathan, I see only one person on this thread who has critisised you, and that was in response to you poo pooing the idea of pea gravel. The others are talking about their horses and what they would do. Your case has raised questions which has sparked a discussion on what others would do with their horses. This is not the same thing as critisising you about what you did with your horse. Obviously you have a horse in a million there. I remember trying to walk my boy out after only four weeks box rest. I had to use a rope halter with a twelve inch rope. I really hope your girl gets through this and has done her time. :)
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Maybe I did not make myself clear. I am not just talking about this thread I include other posts about my mare as well.

Enough said on the matter.
 
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