Calling the experts....

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dray123

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I posted a few months ago about my tb who had lost an extreme amount of weight in a short amount of time :


http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=371624&highlight=severe+rapid.



Just to sum up, the first vet we called out said it was me feeding him wrong that was the problem, so over the past few months we have been trying absolutlely everything. Every food the vet has suggested and absolutely no change. We found good knee-high long lucious grass and still, only a smidge of weight went on him and he was there for 8 weeks. But still looked like a hat rack!

Having been at our wits end for weeks and nothing seems to work, we decided to go for a second opinion and went back to our vet we had before.

The first thing he did was check him over and then observed him out in the field etc and did all the checks he had to.

He did say that it wasnt us feeding him wrong that was the problem. He said we was OVER-feeding and that if we fed it to another horse, they would certainly be obese! Which doesn't explain why jase isnt gaining weight, hes not just a "poor doer".

So the options are:

1. A possibility of stomach ulcers. (He is a windsucking/weaving ex-racer)which the vet says is unlikely, althought not impossible, because of the routine he has and hes turned out 24/7

or

2. He has a problem internally with the absorbtion of the food.

Just to twist this story a bit more, the farrier on monday came out and gave Jase a trim and said he had brusing on his feet which indicated that he had been given a steriod injection? We only brought jase a year ago and he says it takes this long for their hooves to grow through.

Going back, the vet said that to treat this possible absorbtion problem he would need to be put on steriods which matches what the farrier said looked like he had been given.

So, the vet has given us two options. We treat him with gastroguard at 30 pound a day for seven days and see if things improve, or we call him out, he will take bloods, then inject Jase with a high amount of glucose, come back 4 hours later and do another blood test and compare the two to see if the sugar has been absorbed and to check everything in that department is okay. Then do a blood test to see if the sugar is in his blood, and if not then theres a problem.


I just wanted to see if you guys knew/had heard of anything/ could suggest anything else?

:)
 
Tell him to test for liver and kidney function. I believe liver function problems can cause weight loss and it's very common now because of ragwort.

And I know that kidney failure can, because I had a horse with it mis-diagnosed for a year because it's rare and they don't normally test for it. He got thinner and thinner while eating more and more.

I hope you find it's something simple. And I'd love to know just how your farrier comes to the conclusion that a horse with bruised feet was given steroids more than a year before. Sounds terribly suspect to me!
 
Im not sure, I think he meant he bruising is that he's been given long term medication - with something like steroids. He said it was about a year ago and that its almost grown out. I dont know if it is relevant to his weight loss or not but i thought just incase i should say something. This whole thing is a bit suspicious to me! We've had problems with his old owner, so my guess is : hes been having this mediciation for whatever it is for a long time, shes told him to us without telling us, we obviously havent continued it because we dont know about it and hes lost the weight.

I really dont know!
 
If the farrier has found "bruising" in the hoof that he says indicates the horse has been given steroids at some point in the past, he almost certainly means that the bruising is old laminitis damage. The sad fact of giving steroids to horses is that it can cause laminitis. Sometimes no other options are available and the risk has to be taken. Liver and kidney function tests are relatively easy to check from a blood sample. Not sure about the ragwort suggestion as if the horse had eaten (cumulatively) enough ragwort to damage his digestive system so badly that he's losing weight so dramatically, then you'd be seeing many other symptoms too. You could try Coligone for a stress-head with belly ache. Cheaper than Gastroguard and works pretty much like Gaviscon does in humans, ie very effective and gives fast relief, IF that's what the problem is. If it IS a liver problem, then for gods sake stop giving him any conditioning feeds or oils immediately. You could start him on Yea Sac (D&H is high quality) as this aids absorption in the hind gut which it sounds as if your horse is struggling with.

You don't say how long you've had the horse but did you know there was an existing problem that had required steroids to be given? I'm guessing not! Might be worth contacting his previous owner. One thing to think about is that the most common problems that affect horses are, ha ha, the most common. In other words, I'd start looking at the easy stuff first. One thing might be that his teeth need seeing to. He may not be able to chew properly or he may have a pain in his mouth from either a tooth abscess or even something wedged in his mouth. Does he eat his feeds or quid/leave them? Another problem is that if an owner tries one thing one week, then a different thing a few days later, then something else a few days after that, then you never get a chance to see if anything might work. Is the horse kept on his own? He might be fretting over something in his management. Is he scouring? There's also a question of whether the bruising in the hoof horn was actually laminitis caused by you putting him on lush grass! Any horse can get laminitis.

If you've discounted all the simple things and you're suspicious your horse may have had steroids in the past for a long term problem and he's losing weight then I'd get a referral to a specialist centre pronto. Good luck and please let us know how he does x
 
I would echo getting liver function checked, weight loss was the first indication I had that my pony was ill.
Hope you get it all sorted.
 
I hope im wrong but a horse i know did this despite owner pumping food in him he had internal cancer again please dont worry could be very wrong
 
STOOOOOOOPPPP!!!:D

Ok, now breathe. And start and the beginning. Sounds like there is a problem;)

Now I tend to think of weight control as an easy equation...you've sussed that as you've been over feeding (for normal) quite rightly to ascertain whether he'll put on weight or not. Good, now we have the knowledge that there IS an issue.

Weight loss occurs for loads of reasons, but simply think of it in steps.
1) Food is not being provided - not this one clearly ;)
2) He can't get to the food (wrong side of fence etc) - not this either I assume!
3) He can't chew it properly - get the vet/EDT (qualified) to check these anyway)
4) He can't absorb it - possible, we'll come back here
5) Something else is using the energy - also as above.
6) He's using it up too fast - workload increases without food increase/pregnancy/lactation etc - we'll assume you've ruled these out
7) He's losing it - sweating/diarrhoea etc - as you've not mentioned this I'll assume these aren't relevant either.

So the likely categories are conditions relating to 4 & 5.
Starting with 5 - a bit weird I know - likely causes fall to infections. get a full set of bloods to check liver/kidneys/signs of non-specific infection etc etc. Worm him broadly - if thin AVOID Equest Pramox - it id v easy to overdose without an accurate weight as it uses body fat to slow release (hence the 13 week intervals), use a 5d Panacur Eq Guard and then a week later a tapewormer e.g. Equitape.
Back to step 4: Malabsorption is the biggie. Before wondering what is causing this, find out IF it is occurring but doing a simple oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT). This is done by starving the horse overnight, taking a baseline glucose blood sample, then stomach tubing a 20% glucose solution into the stomach ad repeat glucose test at 1,2,3,4,6 and 8 hours (2,3 and 4 or 6 hours are the important ones here). The glucose levels should double within 2-3 hours then return to normal in 4-6hours.
IF there is malabsorption, then findingout what it is is the next step...e.g. abdominal ultrasound +/- belly tap etc.
IF the is NO malabsorption then gastroscope etc....but you've ruled out a lot then.

Once you diagnose malabsorption, likely candidates are inflammatory bowel disease (sometimes only found and confirmed on anintestinal biopsy :eek:) and possible lymphoma. Both are treated with steroids...IBD often successfully, lymphoma often managed ok.
If you leap to treatment with steroids first without reason, then IMO side effects are potentially more likely as there's no inflammation for them to work on; and this is expensive and unnecessary. Plus the obvious, the horse won't get better. :( (Oh and it's not defendable if something does go wrong ;)).

I hope this gives you a good starting point. Random treatment for random conditions other people have seen if sometimes hit and most often miss. :p

Best of luck
Imogen
 
from sarahs sister.

Teeth been checked twice this year and apprea to be fully functional. they were in a bad state to start with but are now fine.

Vet did a worm count and he is completly clear.as he did have a heavey red worm burden.

Bloods taken 2 weeks ago are clear too so liver etc are in working order as regards to that.

so now we move on the the glucose test as you said above.

he is out 24/7 as he box walks and weaves,he has 2 large feeds a day and 2 large haynets a day. but he is a terrible wind sucker. he even manages to do it in mid air and does it in between mouth fulls. which worries our vet

so vet has said we also need to work on that by trying a collar and electric fencing a few foot in from our post and rail so he cant get to the fences so he doesnt bloat himself out and gets benefit from his food.

he isnt in work as we feel hes too thin to put a saddle on.

based on what the farrier said about his feet we are strongly suspecting mal absorbtion as its treated with steriod and would fit in with what he had said.as it can cause laminitus etc. hence the bruising.

sarah was sold him as in good health and we have had a year of hell. with even his old owner reporting us and people talking about us behind our backs. suprised either of us hasnt gone bald yet.

good job we changed to our original vet as the TB expert vet we were seeing for him told us it was our management.

gong to be a long haul.fingers crossed.
 
louised1henry said:
from sarahs sister.

Teeth been checked twice this year and apprea to be fully functional. they were in a bad state to start with but are now fine.

Vet did a worm count and he is completly clear.as he did have a heavey red worm burden.

Bloods taken 2 weeks ago are clear too so liver etc are in working order as regards to that.

so now we move on the the glucose test as you said above.

he is out 24/7 as he box walks and weaves,he has 2 large feeds a day and 2 large haynets a day. but he is a terrible wind sucker. he even manages to do it in mid air and does it in between mouth fulls. which worries our vet

so vet has said we also need to work on that by trying a collar and electric fencing a few foot in from our post and rail so he cant get to the fences so he doesnt bloat himself out and gets benefit from his food.

he isnt in work as we feel hes too thin to put a saddle on.

based on what the farrier said about his feet we are strongly suspecting mal absorbtion as its treated with steriod and would fit in with what he had said.as it can cause laminitus etc. hence the bruising.

sarah was sold him as in good health and we have had a year of hell. with even his old owner reporting us and people talking about us behind our backs. suprised either of us hasnt gone bald yet.

good job we changed to our original vet as the TB expert vet we were seeing for him told us it was our management.

gong to be a long haul.fingers crossed.
Click to expand...

Sorry - sounds like it. Sounds also like you're doing it right so to speak so chin up! :o

If he windsucks and cribs that badly then gastroscopy is way higher on the list than otherwise placed....the two (or three ;)) often go hand in hand...chicken and egg though; some say the former causes the latter and vice versa. Either way ulceration could be contributing....

Best of luck
Imogen
 
and the other stong indicator is that we also put him on really long grass knee high for 6/8 weeks thinking this would help and he hardly gained anything atall.and then he got so full of beans we got kicked off the field as he kept jumping out the field and ruining there fences. so we saw improvements in his temperment and attitude etc.as he wasnt depressed any more and his coat improved ten fold.so we thought we had almost cracked it but to no avail.

this may sound nasty but when i spoke to the vet the other day i was soo relieved to be told that there must be something wrong with him and that we wernt just imagining it and that he could see we had done all we could from our end. i didnt know weather to laugh or cry. especially when you have people judging you all the time. and asking questions and making comments.makes you feel un comfortable and like your neglecting him. i always feel like im making excuses.

hes only a youngster bless him hes 6.been out of racing since last july. but looking back he was only just at weight when we got him so for him to loose anything was going to be bad how ever you look at it. he is the type that needs to carry extra weight just in case. as he such a stress head.

getting even more worrying now winters on its way again.
 
paulineh said:
Did you ever get your horse scoped for ulcers.
It really does sound as If that could be the problem
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Well this is the other thing it could be. Our vet said that due to the type of routine he he has, its unlikely. Certainly not impossible. The main thing he was concerned about was the amount of increase in his windsucking. He literally windsucks with a mouthful of hay, on absolutly everything, and its not because hes bored. He has plenty of stuff to keep him occupied.

We really are a wits end with it, we are hoping the glucose test will bring something up so we at least have an explanation for whats going on.

Our previous vet said its our management and how we feed him. He basically looked at him, and thats all he said. He didnt do an examination, as such, just walked about in our field, took bloods which he didnt even run and charge me a fortune. His advice was "contact D&H which is a feed specialist company, they would be the best people to ask". How patronising.

Other than the malabsorbtion, we really dont know what other routes to take
 
i'd get him scoped for ulcers asap - yes not common in horses kept out 24/7 but very common in wind suckers - i'd bet my bottom dollar he has them
 
well we have had the glucose tests done and have had the results today. its good news in one way but in another its bad as its still going to be a long haul. a very uncertain one at that.

i havent got all the results for each test but the vets going to forward it on to me but.......

his glucose level at starvation when the first blood was take was 5.1.

he was then injected with sugar and another blood taken after a hour and that had only gone up to 5.3. then on the test after hour 3 after 3 lots of glucose.the level in his blood was only 5.9. My vet said that in a normal horse after about 3 hours the glucose level should have doubled so should of been theoretically 10.2.

not sure what the cause of this is. weather it be the pancreas or some other internal organ. the vet also described it as the equivalent of irritable bowel syndrome. it could also be a result of the worm burden that he had.

well now is the task of looking in to treatments......

fingers crossed.
 
How interesting. I'm sorry for you problems, but thank you so much for letting us know so that we can all learn from them. Can you tell us if excess insulin is involved?
 
louised1henry said:
well we have had the glucose tests done and have had the results today. its good news in one way but in another its bad as its still going to be a long haul. a very uncertain one at that.

i havent got all the results for each test but the vets going to forward it on to me but.......

his glucose level at starvation when the first blood was take was 5.1.

he was then injected with sugar and another blood taken after a hour and that had only gone up to 5.3. then on the test after hour 3 after 3 lots of glucose.the level in his blood was only 5.9. My vet said that in a normal horse after about 3 hours the glucose level should have doubled so should of been theoretically 10.2.

not sure what the cause of this is. weather it be the pancreas or some other internal organ. the vet also described it as the equivalent of irritable bowel syndrome. it could also be a result of the worm burden that he had.

well now is the task of looking in to treatments......

fingers crossed.
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He was actually given some glucose from a bottle on a little bit of feed. Adele even drank some herself!
 
Yep!

We literally have done everything simple it could possibly be. All his teeth etc have been done. Blood tests all came back clear.

The vet said hes not absorbing his food properly. We aren't quite sure of what is causing this, it could be any number of things but top on the list are damage from the worm burden, or a problem with his pancreas. We aren't ruling anything out and we are currently investigating further and looking at different treatment options. Its been a tough year!
 
dray123 said:
Yep!

We literally have done everything simple it could possibly be. All his teeth etc have been done. Blood tests all came back clear.

The vet said hes not absorbing his food properly. We aren't quite sure of what is causing this, it could be any number of things but top on the list are damage from the worm burden, or a problem with his pancreas. We aren't ruling anything out and we are currently investigating further and looking at different treatment options. Its been a tough year!
Click to expand...

AHA!!!:D here's the thread I read first!!!

Glad that you had the OGT test done and got a result; now to find the underlying cause! It's a long haul, but at least with something to go on - maybe scans etc will through something up. I can't remember if you said he was insured for this or not?

Let us know what comes out of the further investigations!
Imogen
 
Just to update you all again :

Starting this Monday we are trying him on a 2 week course of steriods with our fingers crossed he gains weight or improves somehow.
The vet has said that he has protein losing enteropathy which was possibly caused by the huge amount of worms he had when when we got him but who knows?
Im a bit baffled by the fact that the lady who sold me possibly couldn't of known about this somehow, I only had him 8 weeks before he lost all the weight and this whole nightmare started. Anyone know if there is anything that can be done with regards to the owner essentially selling me a ill horse although saying there wasnt anything wrong with him?

Il update you again in two weeks:)
 
Just to show you some photos so you get the jist of things

SAM_0338.jpg
this was taken in august, he obviously is pretty much the same now. Will take another pic and upload when hes finished his steriods and the vet comes to re-assess.
 
rubyredshoes said:
You say he had a faecal worm count done by the vet which showed a red worm burden but has he had a blood test for tapeworm?
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Hi
Go again with the red worm thing and ask your vet to 'overdose' him.
I had a TB similar to yours' condition and he actually was full of red worm and the one dose was not enough. It was a long time ago but I think we kept worming for red worm for 3 months and finally they were all gone. They were lurking but as soon as they were out he put on a proper amount of weight. The red worms is rotten little blighters!
Bryndu
 
When June had her results from her glucose test after the last blood was taken number 5 or 6 i lost count, the results came back and her glucose had not gone up at all, she had a flat curve glucose result meaning she absorbed nothing.
Maybe as Jase is absorbing something James had only put you on a 2 week trial, June is starting on steroid tablets every day. Cant remember the name of them but ask James when he comes out to you to see if they are the same ones Jase is on.
I will give you any info i learn on this condition and i know you will do the same back.
Remember they both will get better xx
 
Bryndu said:
Hi
Go again with the red worm thing and ask your vet to 'overdose' him.
I had a TB similar to yours' condition and he actually was full of red worm and the one dose was not enough. It was a long time ago but I think we kept worming for red worm for 3 months and finally they were all gone. They were lurking but as soon as they were out he put on a proper amount of weight. The red worms is rotten little blighters!
Bryndu
Click to expand...





We found out what the problem is, he has a condition called Protein Losing Enteropathy.
 
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