Can a cob ever make it to top level dressage (ie grand prix)?

Any horse can do dressage!

I think we have all forgotten what dressage is - it's training. You can train any horse to do high school movements.

I don't see why all horses should be barred from GP - except for the snootiness of dressage at that level. That's not the horses fault. If I bought a WB at £30k+ and a £50 quid hairy beast made it onto my warm-up arena, I'd be paying the judges to take it off too... :p

Anyway, here is a non-horse doing dressage just to prove my point...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnsWQ4kNG-w
 
As the above poster said, it's training. So, we all know pretty much any horse can do these movements.

Then what?? Well then, once the movements are down, it will be compared on elegance and ease of abilty and overal style etc. So at this point you have a cob and a flashy wb...

This is why we wont see any cobs I suppose, as one can execute the movements with far greater ease and style over the other!
Having said that, for many of us training is the fun part, so it shouldn't stop anyone trying to reach their goal no matter what horse your riding - as it takes far more than a flashy horse to reach GP level.


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heidirusso said:
As the above poster said, it's training. So, we all know pretty much any horse can do these movements.

Then what?? Well then, once the movements are down, it will be compared on elegance and ease of abilty and overal style etc. So at this point you have a cob and a flashy wb...

This is why we wont see any cobs I suppose, as one can execute the movements with far greater ease and style over the other!
Having said that, for many of us training is the fun part, so it shouldn't stop anyone trying to reach their goal no matter what horse your riding - as it takes far more than a flashy horse to reach GP level.


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If flashiness wins the day rather than correctness of the training then I think it should be in a class of it's own and call it umm.. 'Flashy Dressage'.

It's discrimination in my book, can you be horse-racist? Well whatever the equivalent is, I think the sport is most definitely discriminatory.

In BD, it is the correctness of movement that wins points not what horse you've got. Then you go to top level and only WB types are allowed to compete based on the above - how is that fair if the training is exactly the same???

I don't think we can change this awful unfairness, but if more people competed on their cobs then they won't really have choice but to place people.

Cob-lovers should unite and not be pushed back by the flashies!!! We can change things!!!!
 
I still just don't see the point....why push for something that's not bred for it?


I'll stick to showing the lovelies ;)
 
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tallyho! said:
If flashiness wins the day rather than correctness of the training then I think it should be in a class of it's own and call it umm.. 'Flashy Dressage'.

It's discrimination in my book, can you be horse-racist? Well whatever the equivalent is, I think the sport is most definitely discriminatory.

In BD, it is the correctness of movement that wins points not what horse you've got. Then you go to top level and only WB types are allowed to compete based on the above - how is that fair if the training is exactly the same???

I don't think we can change this awful unfairness, but if more people competed on their cobs then they won't really have choice but to place people.

Cob-lovers should unite and not be pushed back by the flashies!!! We can change things!!!!
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No! That wasn't my point...What I meant was; saying both horses performed movements both perfectly correctly (as a hypothetical in this example) then to judge between the two you would have to choose whose test was more joyful to watch! This is where the finer details come in to how those movements are performed and the overall feeling of the test. This I feel can be done by a horse was has more substance to the way they move and carry themselves. When I say flashy I mean substance and everyones 'flashy' is something personal and what they perceive to be elegant.

I have nothing against cobs - I love them, I have one myself and love dressage, so of course I have total faith in their ability!
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Binky01 said:
I still just don't see the point....why push for something that's not bred for it?
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Bred for what? Bred to do something all horses do but better according to who? That's not in the spirit of horsemanship.

So if you were short and dumpy you shouldn't give ballet a go? If you're tall and rangy, forget tug-of-war?

I agree there's little chance of a cob making it to GP but I strongly believe this should change!
 
barolla in the 80's did grand prix and was a roan irish cob. There are 2 x grand prix welsh cob stallions in the US, Kentchurch Chime is one . Alos (and I am getting ready to duck) Lippizaners are really like small white cobs....
 
There is a welsh cob that competes up to FEI and grand prix in america called North Folks Cardi. Go to you tube and enter FEI Musical Freestyle Champion North Folks Cardi.

Sorry I couldn't get the link :o

There is also a nice video of them training him: Cardi and Debbie McDonald, part 3 - trot work!!

To be honest to make it to that level there has to be training, horses attitude and a certain level of natural talent with any type of horse.
 
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tallyho! said:
So if you were short and dumpy you shouldn't give ballet a go? If you're tall and rangy, forget tug-of-war?
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Well I'm short and dumpy and gave ballet a go when I was younger, but I wouldn't expect to get into the Royal Ballet, because my physique naturally makes me less graceful and athletic than the top dancers!

The same with dressage - cobs will have a good go at it, but the higher they go up the levels, the more they are likely to be hampered by lack of athleticism. Doesn't mean they can't do the movements, or that some of them won't do really well - but they are always going to find it harder than the more naturally talented horses.
 
I'm sorry to all the cob lovers but I think those videos highlight why very few cobs if any reach Grand Prix level.

It isn't really a case of teaching them the movements, we know horses are be taught to do all sorts but doing it correctly and to the standard required to do well at GP is a different matter. The step up from PSG to GP is enormous and many horses don't management it. Horses that are very comfortable and do well at PSG do not neccessarily cut it at GP.

There is a reason that the majority of horses doing GP are warmbloods. Those horses are bred for the job, they have natural expression, they find the movements a lot easier, they have a greater range of movement. Like someone else said it would be like asking a rugby player to do top level ballet. And even then only a handful of those horses make it!

Yes there are the exceptional cobs that try their hearts out, learn the movements but you will never get the polished finish that you get from a horse that naturally finds it a whole lot easier! Be realistic, if you were going to buy a horse to take you to the top in the dressage world you wouldn't buy a cob! They have be breed and designed to do an entirely different job.

It isn't all about being flashy! They have a much greater range of movement. A cob is never going to score as well in movement such as extention. You wont get the same about of elevation in the passage etc. I am not saying you couldn't ride a GP test on a cob but I don't believe you could be seriously competitive at that level.

Having said all that...in my eyes many welsh Ds are not really cobs. I think a lot of the top dressage ponies have welsh in them.

*runs off to hide from any angry responses*
 
Not all horses 'do' grand prix though. My little welshy mare got up to medium, but again, welshies are completely different to true 'cobs' of the gypsy or irish sort.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I just would not have any interest in putting so much more work into schooling a cob to grand prix level when it just will not have the 'extra' thing to make it stand out to say, Totilas, if they were competing side by side.
If it's me being accused of vanity, so be it, I just would not have any interest in trying to get a cob to Grand Prix as again, it is not bred for the prupose of high level dressage nor would hold it's ground against all the warmbloods if I'm honest.
And then you'd have contemplate use of joints, wear of them etc, again not designed to be dressage machines so who would know if it would cause premature wearing of the joints/muscoskeletal problems, etc? Example, Think how many 'bred' dressage horses hocks have problems in later life as it is. It's a lot of weight to be had on them constantly if you're bringing them on like that.
I think, if you really wanted cobs to kick off in the dressage world, then you'd have to start adding new blood to the mix and breeding with dressage in mind and then in a few years time end up with a more 'dressage' model of cob tbh. But I still think it's an awful lot of effort when you could just go out and buy a warmblood who's built for the job and has lines of pedigree gone into making it how it is.

I'm not anti cob by any means, I bring them on and show them for a living [gypsy cobs if that makes any difference]. I much prefer doing this to ponce around playing dressage with them when I'd much rather them be doing well and placing as a true to type breed standard, rather than what movements they can do.

Dressage is not the fundamental way of training for all horses. Flatwork is yes, but bringing them on with the focus of pure dressage and the scales of training for that, does not work for bringing on horses for other disciplines, especially showing. A dressage horse put in the show ring looks completely out of place and is 'incorrect' for what they actually judge on, so bringing them on in the ways of the dressage for pure showing, does not suit for us. We don't start with the 'long and low' years for prelim and novice, walk-canter is a complete no no, as ar flying changes, plus the gallop etc. Look up Grand Prix pictures and then compare to a County\HOY's standard winner [be it hunter, cob, riding horse, etc]. Two completely different things to strive to the horse to be working like. So from my point of view, although it's gone off topic slightly, dressage schooling our cobs would leave me with no desire to do so. I'll stick to dressage on our nice warmblood baby!

Might seem a load of crap to some, but it's a discussion so that's my view. :)

If it came down to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qVhxchqvkk
Or a cob of an equal standard....no question who my answer would be with!
 
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wispagold said:
Well the problem is that it is a type rather than a breed and there seems to be quite a lot of variation. Maybe someone needs to come up with a definition of cob and then we can start all over again!
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sorry..the welsh cob IS a breed...and capable of doing a dressage test..up to what level..depends..but NOT PSG

The short, dumpy, hairy dray pullers are NOT cobs...
 
Does it actually matter? Very few horses get to grand prix and very few riders compete at grand prix.

Of course horses are bred to do certain jobs, why else can someone charge 6k plus for a foal because of it's breeding?!

If you get a special horse then you are very lucky. No matter what breed/type it is :rolleyes:

Personally I love seeing the underdogs doing well.
 
You're right.

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Our shortdumpyhairydray bears nothing resembling a cob....

Go to a true hairy breeder and I think anyone would be mildly astonished by the amount of genetics, bloodlines, effort and history is put into your 'dray pullers'. Normal happy hacker cobs you see yes, maybe don't have a clue what pedigree it has....but a true gypsy cobs history can be traced god knows how long back and be bred specifially to drop 'breed standard A' on the ground for the next generations. It's their family history and livelihood and most prized posessions, worth over £20k+ for just youngstock being exported and sold.

But anyway. Competely off topic now and I had guessedfrom the start it was going to end up like Shils old post so wasn't going to comment seriously ;)
I've had my heated debate allowance for the day I think ;) *closes laptop*

lol :p
 
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Binky01 said:
I think, if you really wanted cobs to kick off in the dressage world, then you'd have to start adding new blood to the mix and breeding with dressage in mind and then in a few years time end up with a more 'dressage' model of cob tbh. But I still think it's an awful lot of effort when you could just go out and buy a warmblood who's built for the job and has lines of pedigree gone into making it how it is.
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I do agree with your whole post. If we want cobs to kick ass in dressage then there needs to be a GP for cob 'types' as you are right, compared to WB they don't look as good.

They are AS good but perhaps then shouldn't be compared to horses of a different type. Which is where my argument comes in, why isn't there an equivalent? Why should they be sidelined as inferior despite not belonging to the same type. It's not the horses or the owners, it's just the rigidity of the system.
 
That's a bit like asking whether a cob could go round Aintree. Yes in all probability you could get one who could, but it wouldn't be very nice for the cob and what on earth would be the point.

Warmbloods have been bred to have shallow, narrow barrels, swan like necks ( no stuffy gullet), long, long legs, to be gargantuan (since when was 16hh a tiny tiny horse - think that says it all), to have a massive stride and a hind leg which pushes up providing suspension(amongst numerous other traits which have been selectively bred for).

The only cob which comes close is the welsh cob, which also pushes up, rather than drives forward with it's hind legs, can be quite long legged, is often built more uphill and has a fairly hot temperament.

My draughtX mare could have spent more time working in an engaged frame, but it would have been hell on her hocks and phsically unfair on her. On the other hand she will canter/trot for hours without flagging as she has such a huge set of lungs on her.

I do agree that dressage should be all about training - rather than physical attributes, but I can't see how you can differentiate between the two. Bit like saying SJers shouldn't be bred to jump.
 
nativeponies said:
sorry..the welsh cob IS a breed...and capable of doing a dressage test..up to what level..depends..but NOT PSG

The short, dumpy, hairy dray pullers are NOT cobs...
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Yes the welsh cob is a breed, a very lovely and talented breed with lots of examples competiting successfully in dressage. I still don't think they could hold their own competiting at GP level although don't doubt they do very well at the higher levels.

I think a lot of people are talking about, as you put it "the short, dumpy, hairy dray pullers". What are these then? What do you call them?

Using Wikipedia (which everyone knows never lies) the definition of a cob is: "Cob is a term used to describe a type of horse that is small, usually of a stout build, with strong bones, large joints, and steady disposition. The term refers to a body type of horse rather than a specific breed"
 
what i'd previously written..from wiki..

The breed of horse known today as the Section D Welsh cob exemplifies the classic build of the historic cob. It is said that good cob should have "the head of a lady and the backside of a cook."

Cob is a term used to describe a type of horse that is small, usually of a stout build, with strong bones, large joints, and steady disposition. The term refers to a body type of horse rather than a specific breed. Historically, in the United Kingdom and, to a lesser extent, the eastern United States, it was also a word used to describe a common horse used for everyday riding
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what would i call the others..no idea TBH..As most are pretty non-descript and samey, aren't they? ;)
 
Gypsy cob breed standard, as directly quoted from the TGCA. For not being an apparant breed, why is there a standard and whole show circuit ;)

General Description
A strong, active cob, full of quality and spirit coupled with an abundance of flowing mane, tail and leg hair
Breed Standard
Height:

The height can be any height from 12hh – 16hh or over.

Head:

Neat, small, noble and in proportion to the body . Broad between the eyes, which should be bright, and alert displaying a large, kind eye. Blue eyes are acceptable, Small neat ears slightly incurving. Long foretop of straight hair down the face.

Neck:

Strong, well arched and of ample length. The neck to be well set onto a good sloping shoulder, Stallions should display a bold outlook with a well-arched crest. Long, flowing mane.

Shoulders:

Well-laid, long, sloping shoulders with well-developed muscles. Withers not too fine.

Body:

Short-coupled and deep through the chest, with well-sprung ribs. Strong loins.

Hindquarters:

Deep, lengthy and powerful. Second thighs well-developed and very muscular. Tail well set on, not high, with plenty of long, straight hair reaching the ground.strong muscled hindquaters displaying an ‘Apple shape’



Hocks:

Broad, Flat and clean. Well let down with plenty of dense flat bone below. Ample hair being displayed







Forearms: Set square. Short and very muscular, with broad, well-developed knees. Displaying an abundance of hair around all the leg.

Feet, Legs and Joints

The very best of feet and legs, with flexible joints, showing quality with no coarseness. The cannons should be short and display a minimum of 8"(20.3cms) of flat flinty bone and well defined tendons. Pasterns should be nicely sloping and of good length. Ample silky feather surrounding all of legs and feet and joints. Large, round feet open at the heels, with well developed frogs.









Colours:

All colours acceptable

Markings: All markings acceptable



Action:

Clean, high, straight and true. Going forward on “all fours” with tremendous energy. The knee and hock are lifted, the hind legs flexed well under the body for powerful drive.

Character:

True pony character. Alert, loyal, courageous, intelligent and placid and genuine sociable outlook
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Now the 'half hairy's' you see going round...I have no idea on either. Enlighten me ;)
 
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United for showing purposes, this year, as only coloured traditionals could originally be shown in their natural state. Otherwise were hogged and done as show cobs.
Now looking to showcase the breed and allow all breeders to show their stock as well as all gypsy cobs to be able to show. [Youngstock, stallions, mares, riddens, inhands etc]. Another show society :)
TGCA had been around for a while before this however, but just not the showing side of things as it was more focused on DNA testing and having the database of the breed and horses in the UK and abroad, as what happened was all the herds were private ones across the board with the gypsies originally, so a lot was done collecting the DNA and records to create the records here currently all up to date and hand :) The actual 'breed' has been around for just as long as any breed really, it's not a new 'thing', but for the purpose it was originally bred for, it wasn't a 'public' breed really. The breeders and enthusiasts know their stock. As you are correct in they were bred for the different purposes of romany life - ie, pulling the extravagant bow tops, working animals, etc.

From my brief knowledge on it anyway. If genuinely interested, best bet would be to email TGCA directly for more in depth replies from much more knowledgable people than me. :)
 
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I would love to say a cob could go to the top at dressage, but they won't. As said, they would not go round Aintree for the same reason - not right for the job.

Stinky is a bit lighter and more flashy than some gypsy cobs - he can do a fairly good extended flicky toe trot - probably as there is way back a bit of "quality" in him that shows in his head, shoulder and paces. This means I can do reasonable dressage, jump 3'6 and go round a XC course on him which his thicker set, heavier boned brothers can't do as well.

The gypsy cob has been bred for over 100 years but not held written records as the romanies are not inclined that way. However, a DNA database and record of breeding has been set up both in the UK and the USA and has been around for about the past ten years. The breed has a society in both the UK and the USA, and the TGCA is now developing both the records of the breed as well as the showing of them, both for coloured and solids. Stinky will be attending their first championship show at the end of October.
 
Theresa_F said:
The gypsy cob has been bred for over 100 years but not held written records as the romanies are not inclined that way. However, a DNA database and record of breeding has been set up both in the UK and the USA and has been around for about the past ten years. The breed has a society in both the UK and the USA, and the TGCA is now developing both the records of the breed as well as the showing of them, both for coloured and solids. Stinky will be attending their first championship show at the end of October.
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That's what I was trying to explain, but mine was just badly worded haha! Cheers.
 
FanyDuChamp said:
Excuse me, Mr President is a Gelderlander, a major contributor to the KWPN breed, with stunning paces they are very good for dressage. Most certainly they are NOT cart horses!


My Gelderlander, definately not a cart horse, actually quite a talented horse.


Rant over
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Sorry, but arnt Gelderlanders popular in carriage driving therefore making them cart horses?
 
Gelderlanders, Norfolk Trotters, Hackneys - all used to create the off the ground extravagant warmblood action. Definitely not cart horses - honestly the very idea.....
 
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