Can anyone help me please?

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Gorgeous George

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I have always had trouble with George leaning on my hands and not wanting to work from behind into an outline, probably due mostly to my dodgy riding and the fact that he is one big chunky lad with a short thick neck which is always going to make things a little more difficult for him. We have lessons once a fortnight and sometimes he goes well and sometimes not, but it is so much easier when there is someone on the ground motivating you isn't it?

My problem is that I am no longer enjoying our schooling sessions :(, and whilst I enjoy doing dressage competitions George was primarily bought so I could have fun. So I decided a couple of weeks ago to school George in his mullen mouth dutch gag that I use for hacking and jumping, and bingo he was lighter and more responsive :)(ok probably falsely so) and we were both enjoying our schooling. But for the last 2 days he has been great in walk and trot but as soon as I canter he is not a happy bunny and is throwing his head about :( - which I guess means he is protesting about the strength / action of the bit (although a little confusing as he always jumps happily in it). I have the reins either on the snaffle ring or the ring below depending on the mood he is in! His back, teeth and saddle are all checked and fine.

So my question is, can someone suggest a bit (doesn't need to be dressage legal) that I could use for schooling that will be comfortable for me and George, and allow me to work on our schooling (as in the end I realise that is the issue) without getting frustrated and unhappy all the time. To help out we have already tried:
myler mullen mouth hanging cheek - some success but after a few days he will be leaning/ blocking
kk loose ring lozenge - as above
eggbutt mullen mouth - ok, but can get a bit set
eggbutt with copper lozenge - not good at all, like riding a plank of wood!
loose ring mullen mouth - again some success but after a few days he will be leaning/blocking

Apologies if I come across as inexperienced / naive, but I really am at a loss and would appreciate some help / advice, I just want to continue having fun with my boy but still be able to do a dressage test now and again!

Definately hot choccie and choc chip cookies if you've got this far! :)

Thanks :)
 
Not the best where bits are concerned but my friend had a lot of success with a loose ring Waterford, he liked to lean and the Waterford stopped him, not dressage legal but she schools in it and then swaps to a French link loose ring for dressage.
 
I echo BFG. Try him in a Waterford. A Waterford Gag wold be useful as it still has the three rings so you can put the rein down a ring if he is feeling strong. It isn't dressage legal but it has so many joints in it, he definitely won't be able to lean on it!
 
I have a green little mare with a tendancy to lean on my hands, if allowed, stiffen through her jaw and 'lock' her neck. After much experimenting, I find she goes best in the full cheek version of this, copper lozenge sweet iron snaffle:

http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/P/...Snaffle_copper_french_link_bradoon-(783).aspx

DR legal, really seems to help her relax, she's going nicely in it at the moment. I also find asking her to lengthen and shorten within the paces at the beginning of the session helps to get her moving forward & swinging over her back, feeling 'lighter' in my hands, along with riding canter/counter canter loops. If she starts head chucking / hollowing, I find pushing her forward into a firmer contact really helps.

Have to say I'm no expert though, just seems to work for us! I'm sure other people with have plenty more helpful advice for you.

Sorry to hear you're not enjoying your schooling so much, I hope you find a solution :)

ETA: Re-reading your post now, I can see you've already tried the KK loose ring lozenge, so just realised my post may not be much help. Sorry!
 
I've had good success with a loose ring waterford as well for a 'leaner'.

I've been told that a NS Verbindend (sp) is good also, but I've not tried one myself. (didn't try it because the waterford worked so well)
 
A drop noseband has made a huge difference to my lad, I was riding him in a dutch gag and he is now in a loose ring french link with the drop, it's made him so much more polite and responsive, it's worked wonders.
 
Waterford snaffle! Very useful for a horse that leans, even if you only need to use it a handful of times.

Do you have lessons? My guess is that he's leaning because he's on the forehand and expecting you to carry him rather than carrying himself. It's always useful to have someone on the ground who can give you pointers and help you to get him sitting down more behind and able to balance himself. I sympathise with you - I have a big horse who can be a bit like steering a HGV at times!
 
I echo JVB and the drop; worked wonders for both of my big IDxWB mares. Was then able to use a 'peanut-lozenge type link on a loose ring' and both really relaxed their jaws. For jumping I just went to a hanging cheek version. I think a lot of people disregard the drop noseband, but like anything else, it can be a very useful tool in the right hands with the right horse. Certainly worth a try.

I did also used to have a welsh D who could pull like a train and lean. The waterford worked for her, but I then couldn't use it for dressage. In the end she went best with a dressage legal myler with a tongue port; it was my dentists suggestion as she had a very fleshy tongue. Worked wonders for her, but have never found anything else that liked it.

Horses for courses.... Good luck!
 
Ok, here's my tuppence worth, feel free to disregard...

In order to stop the leaning, you need to take the next step with your horse's training - to teach him to engage his quarters and lighten his forehand by taking more weight behind.

There is no quick fix for this. It takes time to teach a horse to go well; he has to understand what it is you want from him and then build up the muscle to be able to actually execute it.

As you have already found out, preventing him from leaning by using a stronger bit just throws up further problems (the throwing his head about in canter), because he either can't or doesn't know how to lighten his forehand. Until he has learnt to do this you will have issues whatever bit he is in, either with him leaning or evading in some other way.

If you are not enjoying schooling or feel that you aren't getting very far, I suggest you try a new instructor, or take him out to a few dressage clinics, to get some fresh ideas. You need an instructor who can teach you how to train your horse.

I know that riding a horse who continually leans is no fun, and the waterford may help him to break the habit, so give it a try. Certain horses definitely prefer certain bits, and there's no shame in trying different ones until you get one that suits. However, a bit can't teach your horse to work correctly, that's your job. Nor can it teach you how to train your horse, that's your instructor's job.

If you would like some exercises that might help then let me know and I'll suggest some, but I don't pretend to be any kind of expert! I have gone through a similar issue with a horse I ride and am just summarising what I have learnt from her in case it helps you! :)
 
Another one for Waterford :D. Use it light and smooth. The only horse I've known able to get hold of it was Tiggy, but she was in pain (if only I'd known :( ), so had a different agenda.

Definately worth a try with different nosebands :). Though, if I remember right, only cavesson and flash are dressage legal.
 
When he starts to lean on your hands you could try stopping and backing him up several paces then send him on in whatever pace you were in when he started leaning. It's best to establish the technique in walk and trot first before trying it in canter, use one of the "ordinary" snaffles you already have.

You really don't need a stronger bit, you just need to teach him to balance himself without resorting to using you to physically hold him up. This isn't a five minute fix, it takes time but it's worth it.
 
MrsMozart said:
Another one for Waterford :D. Use it light and smooth. The only horse I've known able to get hold of it was Tiggy, but she was in pain (if only I'd known :( ), so had a different agenda.

Definately worth a try with different nosebands :). Though, if I remember right, only cavesson and flash are dressage legal.
Click to expand...

took this from the BD rules page

Nosebands
It is obligatory to use a noseband. Either a drop, flash or cavesson noseband must be used with a snaffle bridle. A cavesson noseband only must be used with a double bridle. Drop nosebands and flash strapsmust lie in the chin groove. Grackle nosebands are permitted only for Eventing. Nosebands must notcause discomfort.
Click to expand...

have to agree with the posters that say about balance. My girl is exactly the same, and I am working on getting the hind quarters engaged and getting her balanced
 
Please can I ask that if you use a dutch gag that you use two reins, that is how they are designed to be used and then you can ride him off the snaffle rein unless and until you need the greater leaverage of the second ring. Gags used with one rein on the second hole are one of my big irritations! :)
 
Steorra said:
In order to stop the leaning, you need to take the next step with your horse's training - to teach him to engage his quarters and lighten his forehand by taking more weight behind.

There is no quick fix for this. It takes time to teach a horse to go well; he has to understand what it is you want from him and then build up the muscle to be able to actually execute it.

As you have already found out, preventing him from leaning by using a stronger bit just throws up further problems (the throwing his head about in canter), because he either can't or doesn't know how to lighten his forehand. Until he has learnt to do this you will have issues whatever bit he is in, either with him leaning or evading in some other way.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have put it better myself!:D

We have a very chunky, short-necked chap - 17hh with 10.5" of bone at 5!

He's by my RID stallion out of a TBxPercheron mare (who threw heavily to the Percheron!) The brain is a LONG way from the feet and he had trouble learning to balance himself and so leant heavily on the rider. Even my best rider - of MANY years experience - had trouble with him and found him hard work until we put him in a pelham - NOT a bit I'm fond of but definitely works with some horses!

This got him OFF the rider's hands and enabled the rider to mobilise the hindquarters better - he's now developing self-carriage and DOESN'T have to be carried around by his rider!

lofty-trot.jpg


It's important that the curb rein is VERY lightly used - just a tweak when needed to stop him leaning on the bit. Add lots of leg and lots of transitions! A different horse in a matter of weeks!

He's still growing - and a bit bum high - but you can now RIDE him forward without him nose-diving into the ground (and bucking because of loss of balance!!)
 
JanetGeorge - oh my word he is HUGE! And very handsome.

You have demonstrated what I was clumsily getting at: the bit is a tool not a solution.
 
Maybe one thing you could consider is getting either your instructor or trainer to ride him occasinally. My young horse is occasionally ridden by my instructor as I'm not the most experienced and it helps to break any cycles we get into etc. It makes a real difference her just riding him for one session. alternatively if you can afford it and can find someone good there is always the option of sending him to "bootcamp" for some intensive work. My instructor recently took a horse on livery for 3 weeks for intensive schooling, the horse and rider were stuck with canter transitions and couldn't get the right leg - it was causing a massive block and getting very frustrating for everyone. The horse came for 3 weeks, was schooled 6 days a week and the rider came up for lessons after. Horse has just been to a show, done really well, correct canter everytime. It was just good to break the circle of frustration!

I also find it fascinating to watch my instructor ride my boy, it's great for picking up tips about where to put your hands / legs etc.

Also, if you want a bit to stop leaning - waterford, maybe even just for a few weeks to get you started.
 
Thank you all for your helpful and supportive suggestions :)

I do understand that schooling is the answer but no matter how hard I try we seem to end up stuck in a rut. I have a lesson once a fortnight but it is trying to school in between times that causes me the trouble, he can do it because sometimes he goes really well - but I think we both struggle with balance and co-ordination.

I will try a loose ring waterford, if only as a short term measure to guide us in the right direction and to give me a bit of motivation. I don't know much about waterfords though, are they a severe bit? Also I seem to remember reading somewhere that you buy them bigger than usual bits, is that right? :confused:

JanetGeorge your horse is gorgeous and is a similar build to George who is a 16.3 shire x so a fairly substantial boy too! Unfortunately I know I couldn't ride with double reins at the moment so will have to give the pelham a miss (and another reason why I shouldn't be using a gag either).
 
All about Waterfords...

They are more severe than a single-jointed or french link snaffle, because the presure is distributed over a smaller surface area due to the shape of the links. If you hold one in your hand you will see what I mean.

However, the joints also mean they have no nutcracker action, which many horses prefer. Nor is there any poll pressure (unlike a gag), or action on the roof of the mouth (unlike a high-ported bit).

They can reduce leaning or pulling both through the pressure points created by the shape of the links, which act on the tongue and bars, and because the links also make the bit quite mobile in the horse's mouth.

A waterford snaffle could be a good choice for you in that it may help with the leaning but you won't have to manage two reins. Also, it is a stronger bit but applies no poll pressure. This may work better than a gag, which does, because poll pressure will cause some horses to drop their heads right down or fling them around (especially in hands not used to two reins).

A word of warning - you will need to keep the contact light with the waterford the majority of the time you are riding. They can cause horses to drop behind the bit and evade the contact, particularly if too much pressure is applied with the hands. Like any bit, they are only as good as the hands at the end of the reins.

Hope this is useful - good luck with your boy :)
 
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