Can anyone name any top riders who started out as working pupils?

I think it is essential for anyone wanting to make a career in the horse industry to go and work for other people, and get as much different experience as possible. Probably most eventing yards would also break, school and bring on young horses, but I think it would be invaluable to spend time in a hunting yard, show jumping, even polo, dressage and showing.

There was a place in the USA where all students had to prepare and compete, and complete, in a three day event, show jumping up to a certain standard, a 50 mile endurance race and since it was in the USA, know about western riding too. So they ended up know a great deal about different disciplines.
 
imr said:
I think TS and Optimist make a very interesting point here.

I think it will take some years before we start to see if the huge increase in training and funding and programmes for YR and ponies makes a difference to the sport at top level. It is almost impossible to do well at these programmes without a horse produced for you, which you have learned to ride. That does not mean a young rider cannot also be riding lots of other horses though, but without the experience of sitting on lots of different horses and producing your own, IMO will be difficult to do well as a senior. But maybe not so if your parents buy you horses forever?
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With the greatest respect I'm afraid I have to disagree with both these points.
1. If you look at the obituary currently on BE's news page of Christopher Schofield (ex YR Chairman of Selectors) which lists all the YR medallists up to his retirement in '97 you will see that many of them went on to Senior team success. If you look at more recent form, that pattern is repeated. It is one of the reasons that Yogi, tasked with bringing home medals at senior level, is such a passionate supporter of the Youth Programmes - he sees them as the stepping stones in a natural progression to senior honours.

2. It is wrong to suggest you need a "made" horse to succeed in the youth teams. Zoe Brenan produced her Junior individual gold medallist herself from a 4yo. Emily King ditto had Zypp as a very green 5yo who had done one Intro - ok, her Mum has occasionally helped her out when he went through a sticky patch, but only in the same way that any kid's trainer would in the same situation. Going down a notch, Toby Bell has produced Strawberry Box (winner of Weston Park Pony 3 Day and undoubtedly destined for this year's British team) himself, and Millie Hope produced Abbey Prince (2nd at Weston and ditto) from the start.

I think it is a mistake to view the old days with too rose-tinted spectacles: I myself am lucky enough to be a product of Waterstock (Lars Sederholm), having spent a good deal of my youth there, but guess what? My parents had to pay, at any one time there were only one or two WPs (out of 10 or 12) who were there for free.

And wewillshowthemsantaclaus, I don't think you can say Pippa came from an unhorsey background: her mother is the redoubtable Jenny Nolan and her godfather was Raymond Brooks-Ward :o
 
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TableDancer said:
And wewillshowthemsantaclaus, I don't think you can say Pippa came from an unhorsey background: her mother is the redoubtable Jenny Nolan and her godfather was Raymond Brooks-Ward :o
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Sorry i wasnt very clear, i was thinking pippa more along the not filthy rich family but yes she had the horsey family.

I think anyone can do well in this sport (eventing) if they work hard, take every opportunity and get to know as many people as posible as someone is bound the be wanting a jockey for their horse!

Shy kids get no where, asking and writing to people about opportunities can do you no harm, all they can say is no!
 
wewillshowthemsantaclaus said:
Shy kids get no where, asking and writing to people about opportunities can do you no harm, all they can say is no!
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Now I'm going to disagree. ;) Up to a point, this is true, but the horse world is still quite a traditional place (relatively speaking) and I think many people still feel that children should be seen and not heard, at least until they have something useful to say. ;) I do get your point and I completely agree that any hopeful young rider needs to keep their ambitions out there, accepting rides and showing themselves willing to work and keen to learn. But that's different from the "I'm so wonderful, give me your good horses," approach you tend to see now from some people. (Perhaps watching too much The Apprentice. :D ) That's the internet for you, too - it's not so easy to keep up that front when you have to sell it to someone's face. :) I think it does much more harm than good to get a reputation for being all mouth and no trousers. Now, I do see heavily supported young riders using this tack but then it's quite often that they're really "selling" their nice facilities at a cheap rate (vs same facility with a known pro) or offering to do a job for much less than more established people - perhaps because they don't REALLY understand what's involved and neither do the owners. But then we're back to the "family (or similar) support" thing. Having a good yard to work out of, even if your family is not crazy rich, is a HUGE advantage.

Riding is definitely WHAT you know - you can't sell what you don't possess. But it is, I'm afraid, also very much who you know. But the way you get to know people when you're young is to take every opportunity to let them see you working hard and doing well. Definitely, working student positions can be a way to do this, as, obviously, are competitions.

As TD says, though, there really has never been a time when money, family support and connections didn't make a big difference. Tbh, I think that's even more the case here. (Ponies don't even exist in North America, for instance, so it really doesn't matter much what you do before you're 16 as no one outside your immediate area is going to know.)
 
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Table dancer, I know we have always had young rider progs, they have ramped up in the last ten years or so though. I know you don't have to have a made horse but my guesstimate would be a lot do (was thinking dressage more than anything else) and so if that is the case, does it achieve what is desired? I know also if you are lucky and take it seriously the ideal may be a made horse with a talented prospect alongside to deal with the transition - logically that should deal with the issue, I was more musing that its possible to do well on a made horse w/o having the experience of bringing something on, but bringing something on might be a key thing some miss out on and this would affect progress to seniors maybe if one hadn't had that experience? Have no idea what proportion of people have a made horse vs one they have produced but think there is an increasing trend to the former - would be interested what others think?
 
I know Team Fredericks have a really good working pupil scheme, and they go onto great things and are really successful.
 
imr said:
Table dancer, I know we have always had young rider progs, they have ramped up in the last ten years or so though. I know you don't have to have a made horse but my guesstimate would be a lot do (was thinking dressage more than anything else) and so if that is the case, does it achieve what is desired? I know also if you are lucky and take it seriously the ideal may be a made horse with a talented prospect alongside to deal with the transition - logically that should deal with the issue, I was more musing that its possible to do well on a made horse w/o having the experience of bringing something on, but bringing something on might be a key thing some miss out on and this would affect progress to seniors maybe if one hadn't had that experience? Have no idea what proportion of people have a made horse vs one they have produced but think there is an increasing trend to the former - would be interested what others think?
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Interesting points well made :) i think there are a surprising proportion who do make their own Junior/YR horses, somewhere around about half - a little more or a little less and obviously varying from year to year. Interestingly, I would say that those who do well (and my definition, for the sake of argument, is being selected or nearly for the British team) on made horses tend to buy them from previous Juniors (eg Pioneer Silvie originally produced by Millie Dumas). The ones who buy Advanced horses from professionals don't seem to do quite so well, although of course there are exceptions.

Those who do well producing their own horses do often come from extremely supportive, horsey backgrounds, although not necessarily wealthy (Laura Collett...) They are also helped by the fact that, due to their connections, they are often also offered smart horses to ride (David Doel, Alfie Bradstock...) which while not necessarily being fair, is totally understandable if you are the owner - I know I would look for a knowledgeable home for a horse of mine, where it stood the best chance of being well cared for and successful.

You are right, of course, that long term success does require an ability to make horses and ride different types. Maybe it is possible to gain this exoerience at different stages in your career, so the ideal, as you say, would be to ride a made horse and a youngster at youth level, but if you can't do this and get the chance to compete a made horse at this level you can catch up by riding youngsters in your 20s. There are certainly many cases of riders who do well in youth teams then disappear off the radar for a few years, popping up again once they have established a team of their own (ie home-produced) and brought it through the grades. Of course, this still needs money from somewhere.

My last observation would be that it is right for young riders, where possible, to gain experience on made horses: those who only ever ride youngsters can be easily spotted - always slightly behind the movement (anticipating that stop/spin :o ), slightly over-riding etc. There is no substitute for a horse which teaches you what it should feel like - then at least you know what you are aiming for! And while many young riders have made their own first 4* horse, most of them are quoted as saying they wish they had had such and such later in their careers, they wouldn't have made so many mistakes with them.

Sorry, that's turned into a bit of a ramble! I think I'd summarise by saying that in my view the youth programmes are doing a pretty good job in that 1) It is still perfectly possible to make teams on a home-produced horse 2) They do provide a useful second career for made horses to show kids the ropes - not necessarily and in fact seldom making the team in such cases but giving useful mileage at the higher levels. And OP the vast majority of serious professional riders learn the ropes under someone else's wing at some stage of their career. Simples :cool: :D
 
TableDancer said:
And OP the vast majority of serious professional riders learn the ropes under someone else's wing at some stage of their career. Simples :cool: :D
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And I have no idea why anyone (not you TD ;)) thinks this is in some way odd/unusual/limited to the horse industry - if anyone can name me a job where you don't learn from someone more experienced before you go it alone, I'd be mighty surprised!

I worked for lots of people who knew more than me, developed a decent reputation and (crucially!) contacts book, and then set up on my own. Is that not how the world works for pretty much everything?!
 
Absolutely. And it also goes to the idea that people who succeed in the horse business learn to treat it like a BUSINESS. I learned a lot about horses during all my various slave positions but what I also learned from good, successful people is the importance of financial management, presentation, balance, realism etc - boring, grown up stuff. :)

As above, riding experienced, talented is invaluable. Feel is learned. It doesn't have to be a world beater, just a horse that does something well. As a very well respected boss of mine used to say, 'All that riding crap teaches you is to ride crap.' Harsh and unpopular, but true. By the same token such horses are often connected to good trainers - also essential.

What the original question really asks is can you get to the very top with no money/family support. Short answer, no. :) Horses are expensive and a lot of work. BUT, if you don't have money/family support then you don't have options, all you can do is work hard, think smart, be the first to move jumps or stay late or spend a day off auditing a clinic (and offer to move jumps), offer to ride whatever is available and try to wrangle rides, even a few minutes, on better horses. In other words, try to get noticed by someone who CAN provide money/support.
 
Some interesting posts on here.

As someone who is currently trying to make junior teams etc, it's quite interesting to see peoples opinions on pony/junior/young rider riders, horses, set ups etc. There are some with money thrown at them from parents who buy them fantastic ready made horses which they just have to push the buttons on, and I know this from competing against them for pretty much every weekend in the last two years. However I would not say that is the norm. There are are a lot of us(including myself) who have had to make do with what we've got and are not from wealthy backgrounds. Many of the junior riders I know started with young, green, inexperienced or difficult cheap horses because that is all people can afford at the moment, and though it appears from a few on the teams etc that all young riders have their own set up and horses produced for them it just isn't true. It's the exception not the rule, and the majority of us junior riders work incredibly hard with little finance to try and go as far as we can. Only a small amount actually want to carry on and do it as a profession though because we all know what hard work it is even at this level and I think for alot of people they just wouldn't enjoy it any more, I don't think it's that the new way going up through teams and not being working pupils that's stopping people getting to the top. Plus older riders are staying in senior teams for much longer, therefore less places for younger less experienced riders and it's very difficult to get a decent working pupil/stable jockey position at the moment for some reason. Though I can definitely see that a workiing pupil position is invaluable, if there isn't anywhere to go for people they just can't do it.
 
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