Can anyone offer me some lower leg help? Link to vid...

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Puddock

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Oh god, can't believe I'm doing this... However, I'm at my wits' end with my leg position in rising trot. Every time I rise, my lower leg kicks out and then it comes back in as I sit. I don't know how long this has been going on for, as I have only been videoing myself riding for a couple of months (for interdressage). I haven't had any lessons recently (too poor), but my instructor has never commented on it in the past. I changed from a gp saddle to a dr last year, and I don't know if that's something to do with it? I have stupidly long legs with all the length in the thigh, and I am not convinced that even an 18" saddle is big enough for me.

I don't know what to do, as my horse is lazy enough as it is. He was completely dead to the leg when I first started riding him, and I am really worried that my flapping legs will send him back that way. He was going relatively forward in this vid, however (well, for him) and I was definitely not deliberately trying to leg him on at every stride (even subconsciously) I just can't stop my legs from doing this? I have tried trotting/cantering without stirrups and bareback and also standing in my stirrups for extended periods of time. My leg stays relatively still then, but this happens as soon as I return to rising trot.

Please be gentle with me - I am really embarrassed and quite ashamed of myself. I have worked damn hard to get my boy going forwards (he's nearly 21 and had him 3 years ish). I have been riding for over 20 years, but never have and never will be a "good" rider. I am naturally a very clumsy, un-sporty person and it takes me a long time to get things right! I have never, ever competed before having a go at this interdressage lark either (pls don't laugh at my boots in the vid, I had bust the zip on my riding boots, so was wearing flat black ones from Clarks lol).

The only thing I can say in my defense is that a friend who is a much better rider than me regularly rides him and even her legs flap very slightly in rising trot on him...

Anyway, the video, eek: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i31aybMWD-E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Any advice gratefully received, thanks for reading my ramble :o
 
Hi...OK, I think (IMO) that there are two things going on here.

Firstly, there is a weak lower leg and then there is the habit of continual nagging! :D

Re the weak lower leg...at the moment you don't appear to have weight going down into your heels....this is what stabilises the lower leg. I'm not sure how much you feel you are reaching for your stirrups, but maybe pull them up one hole and then try sitting for two beats and rising for one as an exercise on a 20m circle. When you can do that (even harder) is to try rising for two and sitting for one! You can build on this if you wish - have masochistic tendencies!

Once you have achieved the above you will actually have a stiller lower leg and so your horse won't switch off so much to the continual nagging.
 
Thanks Gunnergundog, I will give that exercise a try :) I have tried standing in my stirrups but not alternating the rising and sitting. I'm not sure if my stirrups are the right length or not :confused: I was hoping that all the work I have been doing bareback and without stirrups would help me get my leg down. The reason I got rid of the gp was that it put me in a terrible chair seat.
Maybe hoiking them up a hole will help.

I promise that I am trying really hard *not* to nag at my horse at every stride, as I know he could end up dead to the leg. It's like the movement is completely involuntary. As I said, I am naturally clumsy and don't pick things up easily, I know I will have to be careful, for example when thinking about having weight in my heels, that I don't start rising by pushing off the stirrup, this seems to have the effect of catapulting me out of the saddle and really over-rising.

Thanks so much for your help, and for taking the time to look at my video. Don't have any other tips for strengthening the lower leg do you? :D
 
You look like you're reaching for your stirrups so when you rise your lower leg swings out to try and keep the stirrup on your foot. Try putting your stirrups up a hole or two. Also try doing some stretches in the saddle to lengthen your leg, so some hip flexes, quad stretched etc.
 
Cheers rlhnlk. Sounds like I definitely need to put the stirrups up a hole
or two then. I guess up until now I've just been worried about the dreaded chair seat returning if I had too much of a bend at the knee. I wish I wasn't such a funny shape! Also have no idea what I'm playing at attempting dressage tests...... don't think I will ever be able to present a pretty picture when it comes to riding!
 
Stop being a diva :) you don't look that bad at all!

A hole or two up shouldn't mean you end up back to a chair seat. What you need to concentrate on when you shorten your stirrups is still dropping all your weight down, and not using the shorter stirrups to perch as this won't help stabilise your lower leg.

Easier said than done, but you may find that if you can get your horse a bit sharper to your leg then this would also help. Nothing keeps your lower leg still like a horse that shoots forwards if you move too much!
 
Hi Puddock, don't be too hard on yourself, its commendable that you want to improve, even the top riders have lessons to improve their riding. I also think your boy is beautiful and has given me hope for my old girl, she's 23 this year and I've had her since she was 5 but she had a couple of years off due to my injury. I'm trying (very slowly) to get some fitness back. I'm very careful because of her age but when she charges round the field bucking and rearing I figure no ones told her she's 23!
I am guilty for niggling with my legs, what cured me was riding a horse so hot off the leg I learnt FAST to keep them still. Obviously not an option for everyone but I was amazed at how much more forward going my old girl got the LESS I used my leg. An instructor told me once to imagine that I was pointing my knees down, a bit like when you're kneeling, and that 80% of my weight should be in my thigh and 20% in my feet. Whether that's correct or not as I'm no instructor but it did seem to help. Good luck!
 
Agree that your leathers could do to go up a hole or two, would also suggest that the next time you have a stirup-less ride that you do a circuit or two of rising without irons. It really does help to stabalise the lower leg (but makes you very tired!)
 
Lol guys, you've certainly cheered me up. That's great about your girl Laura, I really think that early 20s is no age at all for some horses these days! Mine hadn't done a lot for a long time before I got him, but he seems to be enjoying himself.

Unfortunately, I've not really got the option to ride something super-sharp (unless mine you count mine when he takes a dislike to something out hacking), but I will try even harder not to nag.

The other thing I've been told is to wrap my lower leg around the horse more, but that sometimes seems to cause me to tense my whole leg up. Can't win lol :D
 
Thanks YorksG - the dreaded rising trot without stirrups hehe. I have tried before, but tended to give up as I felt like I was just bouncing and not doing anything resembling rising. Sure my instructor could help with that, I am trying to get some cash together for some lunge lessons.

Thanks to everyone, you've all been really helpful and non-judgmental, I was really worried about putting a video of me riding up!
 
I do exactly the same as you having had a horse that was dead to the leg it became a bad habit.
Now I have a new boy, I have to be careful that I dont do this or I will ruin him.

My trainer tells me half the problem is having my knee to close to my saddle. If she shout 'Unpin your knee' once, she shouts it a dozen times. It does help if I take my knee off the saddle
 
I agree that you need to shorten your stirrups at least one hole.

Then I would say that you are not keeping your thigh flat on the saddle.
when you first get on put you hand under your thigh from behind and pull all the muscle and flab to the back and feel how different this is. You have no need to lock your leg, just let it rest there. The thigh will be flat allowing your knee and toe to easily point forward letting your lower leg fall against the horse's side.
 
Ha, I spent years and many hundreds of pounds on instructors trying to find how to perfect a good rising trot. Good riders kind of do it naturally and find it really really hard to teach.

The essence is that you have to keep your thighs snug to the saddle and keep your lower leg far enough back. Then imagine you are kneeling on the floor and rising only with your upper leg.

I got my information from a Ride with Your Mind instructor. If you can't find/afford one right now then you could do worse than get Mary Wanless video ..... I can't understand the books at all but the video's are OK. An investment of her first and second video would, if nothing else, give you a base to work from.

Google Mary Wanless and I think it is under Products.
 
I think the problem is with your saddle, try taking your feet out of the stirrups and let your leg hang down, have someone look at you and tell you when your heel is in line with you hip and shoulder. Then put your foot in the stirrup and return your leg to the same place, to be correct the stirrup leather needs to be vertical, if it is angled forwards or backwards it will cause your legs to move. If it is not vertical it could be caused by the balance of the saddle tipping you forwards or backwards, or the possition of the stirrup bar. If your saddle is not correctly balanced you will always fight to have a good position. The is a very good book,The horses pain free back and saddle fit book, that is a great help to all horse riders, and it explains how to check saddle balance. Hope this helps
 
First what a nice horse you have, and you have balls of steel to upload a vid for cc :D:D hes not in front of the leg though, and youre nagging quite a bit to try to get him there, long stirrups not helping here.
I do agree with the folks who feel your stretching to get your stirrups, putting yourself off balance and tipping you back into the saddle which isnt helping either of you.
Try your leathers up a hole and see how it goes, it would also be interesting to see the saddle to see if that is tipping you back, which wont be helping either.
Have a lunge lesson from a good instructor to help you out in this area, think more James Brown when your rising with your thighs flat against the saddle and your weight down into your stirrup, more of a thrust than a rise, good luck and coudos for posting this
 
IS this interdresage walk and trot a? I did this test the other day, videoed it and couldnt get the bottle the post it lol!

You have exactly same lower leg problem as me, i'm actually quite pleased that i'm not the only one in the world lol!!

Gorgeous horse!!!!
 
Lovely horse and you aren't a bad rider either! Have you had a look at your shoulder, hip, heel alignment? To me you look as though you have a slight chair seat, which is why you look as though you a leaning back slightly. As a result of this you are gripping with your lower leg and each time you rise the grip loosens and your leg moves out.

First of all, take you feet out of your stirrups, sit centrally in the saddle and let your legs drop as far as they will go. Walk several circuits, all the time letting the weight drop from your hips into your heels. Don't grip with your lower leg, let it hang. Use your thighs to hug your horse gently. When you come to take back your stirrups you will find that rather than shortening them, you will need to lengthen them. Do this at trot as well. I know lessons are expensive but one really good lesson with a brilliant trainer works wonders.

I know this because I had your problem a few years ago. My OH bought me a lesson with a top lady, who was lovely, put my position right and gave me the best hour of my riding life.The lovely top lady was Sylivia Loch and I'm just a happy hacker who enjoys the odd bit of unaffiliated dressage.
 
Tammy too ive had a lesson from Sylvia Loch on one of her schoolmasters as well and it was brilliant, she had me worried at first as she told me i might not get out of walk/ trot depending on her assessment. By the end of it with her help i was doing piaffe and when asking for shoulder in got Spanish walk :D:D.
Probably one of the best lessons ive had, and if she wasnt so far away id definitely go for more
 
Her horses are wonderful aren't they!

Puddock - Syliva is in Kelso, that's not so far to go is it? She prefers to give lessons to grass roots riders because, as she says, there are plenty of top trainers for top riders, but ordinary everyday riders get a bit left out.
 
Hiya, first thing that I thought was too long a stirrup. Most other replies seem to say the same. I think that you can get focused on the long leg thing and forget the basics. I really like your ned and I thought you look good together.
I also think you were very brave to list the video and really didnt think you rode as badly as you said.
If you have a friend who can tape you then why dont you have a session with changing stirrup length and watching the effects. Have you tried riding with a whip aswell. Just carrying one sometimes wakes up a lazy horse and stops you feeling like you have to nag. Perhaps film with and without.
Good luck
 
Don't be so hard on yourself!! With a few slight alterations your leg position will improve and be still.

The main problem is your seat. You sit slightly further back on your bottom. This puts you behind the movement of the horse. As you are not quite in balance when you rise you have to rely on your leg muscles rather than just swing your hips over the front of the saddle. This is why your legs move.

Firstly, take away your stirrups in halt. One leg at a time bring it out to the side, back and then let it drop back towards your horse. You will notice this alters your seat. Sits you more forward allowing your leg to drop back into a more correct position. Warm up without stirrups in walk. Every time you lose the initial feeling repeat the first exercise.

When you want to take your stirrups back. Keep the same leg position and let your stirrups hang down. You want the stirrup to be in line with your ankle. Adjust and put feet in using same exercise if you lose the position.

When you progress to trot rather then an 'up and down' movement you want a forward back movement swinging your hips over the front of the saddle. Ensure you really stretch up through your rib cage and that you don't collapse forward. At first it will feel strange and you will be a little out of balance. Practice short bursts of trot then go back to walk and regain position.

Eventually your muscles will build up and you will do it without thinking.

Hope this helps :)
 
I had a similar problem with my lower legs.....
Stirrups up a hole and keep practising the standing in trot.
I had a saddle that used to make my legs swing back so if you are able to try another saddle or even a dressage saddle.
Boots with suede on the inside of the legs helps grip a bit better.
Stand on stairs and stretch your calf muscles with a walking action but just on one step!
You'll soon get the hang of it and trust me you don't look that bad!!!
 
Wow, what a response hehe. Thanks so much everyone, sorry I'm not able to reply to you all individually, but I promise I've read and attempted to digest all your comments!

I would LOVE to go to Sylvia Loch for a lesson; can maybe combine it with a cheeky wee day at Kelso races!

I've got Mary Wanless's Ride With Your Mind Essentials, but I guess a book can only help so much with an issue like this.

Re having a chair seat, I am trying really, really hard not too. My last gp saddle gave me a horrible one. I am trying to think about getting my leg down and back and I promise I have been doing lots and lots of riding without stirrups and bareback in an effort to stretch the leg down. But I am genuinely starting to wonder if at least part of this is due to saddle. Lots of people recommended the Wintec Isabell to me as generally being very helpful for position. I think part of the problem is that apparently the traditional way to tell what seat size you need is to measure the distance from hip bone to knee. This measurement is significantly more than 18ins on me (size of current saddle), more like 21ins :eek:

Also, re nagging with legs - I know it looks like I am, and to all intents and purposes I am doing it, but I promise that in this video I am actually trying really hard not to and to keep my leg still, as my boy was actually being relatively cooperative that day. He was popping halt to canter nicely just before the test. A stick has no effect at all on him and my instructor would go mad if she thought I was deliberately trying to boot him on every stride - I was taught one leg aid and then use a whip-whop to get him responsive. So, i am trying not to flap, but flap nonetheless lol. He has come a long way - he refused point blank to canter when I got him and wouldn't trot more than a few strides.

Thanks so much for all your help and tips, feel much less demoralized now!
 
1Lucie, yup that's the test lol, you should totally give it a go. If I can do it, anyone can! the interdressage people are lovely and provide lots of useful feedback. They haven't made any comments on my position however, and strangely I had the comment "nice position" for this video - stretching it slighty, I think :D
 
The Isabell Werth saddle really helps as it has the stirrup bar further back than a lot of other saddles, therefore allowing a correct dressage position, the Frank Baines Omni does the same.I am sure there are others as well The saddles that Sylvia Loch uses will have the same position of stirrup bar, as this is much more the norm in Spain and portugal. If your saddle is not built and balanced to allow your pelvis to be upright and your leg to go in the correct place, you will have to fight to try and keep a good leg position.
 
Mmm, think that's the problem Zoejl, already in the Wintec Isabell and it seems even it doesn't have them set back far enough :(

The measurement I gave in the post above was wrong by the way, I measure 25ins between the measuring points and apparently 23ins is the max for an 18in saddle. So, who makes 20 inch saddles then lol?
 
Your long legs will be pushing you to the back of the saddle, try phoning Frank Baines, he is really helpfull, and is great at sorting out your sort of problems. He make wonderful saddles , and there a a fantastic price for the quality.
 
I agree with others your riding is fine and I think you need a lot more strength, to do this, I would go to the gym, a few times to build up your legs muscles, also you can train those thighs just by raising and lowering your body weight with your legs alone, do this with back against a wall at first. Also just raise your body weight on your feet, twenty mins per day every day. Have a 20 mim jog every day.
 
I agree you are being too hard on yourself but you also want to improve... these are tips from my experience.

I had a poor / weak lower leg - my instructor has beasted it out of me!! Lots of 2 point position (standing in your stirrups) - in trot and in canter. It will hurt - it is meant to hurt. I do it out hacking. I also do sitting trot out hacking and rising without stirrups. If it hurts it is working. I have even been made jump without my stirrups. My instructor flips if my lower leg moves so I'm still working on it even now - 2 years after I started with her.

I would also say if he is a little dead to your leg then maybe try a little pair of impulsion spurs (the roller ball ones) - this should mean you shouldn't need to work so hard to send him forward which might be where some of your bad habits have gone from.
 
Thanks again all - I definitely need to get down the gym anyway, Miss L Toe, so I might give some exercises a try, although I don't want to bulk up my legs too much, already have huge quads.

I guess I'll just need to hope that the money-for-new-saddle-Fairy visits me sometime soon as well! :D
 
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