Can horses copy/pick up vices?

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cyberhorse

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Just curious as my horse has now been joined by a new horse in his block who is a crib biter/wind sucker (he already lives next door to a weaver). Someone made a comment that they would not want their horse next to these in case it started "copying". I just assumed some horses acquire these habits as a way of handling stress/boredom of being stabled (or ulcers etc) and others don't. My lad is very good at chilling out in his stable and letting the world go by, so I'd be shocked if he started with any vices, however the comment made me wonder if it ever did happen?
 
The only behaviour I have seen horses copy, is door banging and wood chewing. I have never known one to copy wind sucking or weaving.
 
I gather that the experts' opinion is that horses do not copy. However IME they do. My most recent experience of a horse's copying behaviour is giving my horses a treat ball. The first time I gave one to the big mare she had no idea what to do with and after an hour of her totally failing to understand it I gave it to my Welsh lad who started out terrified, realised there was food in it and worked it out really quickly. Then I gave it to my big gelding who had obviously met one before and knew exactly how to work it. The big mare had watched all the boys playing with the ball and the next time I gave it to her she immediately nudged it with her nose and started to look for the treats.
 
I've had horses stabled next to weavers and cribbers, and they've never picked it up.

However, if it was a youngster - I'd be less inclined.
 
I don't believe they do I had a mare who was a nightmare cribber, she damaged door fences etc. it was constant with her and she was not a field horse just used to pace the gate or crib the fence :(
Nothing that she was ever stabled by picked up the habit and she was alway next to my boy for a year and he never started it.
 
I've got a cribber - my other horse who lives with him doesn't crib, and neither do any of the other on the yard.
I also used to keep both my boys with a weaver...again, they didn't pick this up. Agree that it tends to be door banging that gets picked up.
I wouldn't worry :)
 
I don't believe horses copy either. What I think if far more likely is that they may develop the same stero-typical behaviours in order to cope with similar management routines (lack of forage / turnout / exercise etc)
 
No, not according to the evidence.

I've bred 2 foals from an 'international cribber' - 24/7 almost.

Neither has looked like cribbing. However I had to laugh when I brought in my 2year old (different mare) to the stable for the first time in the heat this weekend. Sure enough in the morning door banging par extrodinaire, just like her mother. Trouble is they've never actually been stabled together (well not since 2 nights after the birth) so banging in this case is I reckon nature not nurture.

If you read the evidence (and I scoured it before breeding from my cribber) then you'll find vices very much temprement/environment based. For example some cribbers went on to have weaver offspring, presumably because of genetics (stressy) or environment (insufficient/too much stimulation).

So I wouldn't worry.
 
However IME they do. My most recent experience of a horse's copying behaviour is giving my horses a treat ball. The first time I gave one to the big mare she had no idea what to do with and after an hour of her totally failing to understand it I gave it to my Welsh lad who started out terrified, realised there was food in it and worked it out really quickly. Then I gave it to my big gelding who had obviously met one before and knew exactly how to work it. The big mare had watched all the boys playing with the ball and the next time I gave it to her she immediately nudged it with her nose and started to look for the treats.
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This is observant of you :) Can I explain, though, why it's not the same thing? A stereotypy like cribbing, weaving or windsucking is defined as a repetitive behaviour seen outside of its normal context, which appears to have no purpose. So, for example, horses are quite capable of shifting weight from side to side - we actually ask them to do it to move out of our way. In this situation, the behaviour has a purpose - the horse aims to move around something. If the horse is shifting weight from side to side but with no intent to move around something, and they're doing it repetitively, then it is a stereotypy.


Horses do indeed learn purposeful behaviours through watching other horses - foals learn a whole range of behaviours from watching their dams. But the behaviours have a purpose, and the horse learns that doing them earns a reward (watching dam graze hedgerow teaches foal that eating higher up leaves is nice) or avoid something the horse doesn't like (the shifting weight sideways, for example, can move the horse around e.g. a flapping plastic bag).

Horses are not motivated to learn things that have no value or purpose - so while the horse next to them is cribbing away, they will not copy the behaviour, as if they're not worried or stress, copying it won't gain them anything.

Horses housed together in poor housing/stressful situations will be more likely to display stereotypical behaviour... this doesn't mean they learned it by copying, just that they were all driven to find the same relief from stress at the same time (there is also a genetic predisposition that means some horses, housed and kept in the same way, will always be more likely to cope with stress this way than others).

ETA - door banging is slightly different - it is possible that it can be stereotypical, but in most cases it's what's known as a supersitious behaviour. The horse has kicked the door a few times accidentally in impatience, waiting for a feed - and has "decided" that it was the door banging that brought the food - horse thinks it's like magic! And we tend to bring dinner quicker to stop the door banging, so we reinforce it :) You can stop door banging by making sure that - using an approach and retreat process - the dinner bucket only gets closer to the horse when they're not banging ;) Sadly, it is not possible to retrain stereotypical behaviours, since they're not really under conscious control.
 
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No I don't think they copy/pick up vices at all. My gelding is stabled next to a terrible cribber/windsucker, he does it all day long, they're on the corner so can easily touch noses, see each other clearly, very close, my gelding has never shown any sign of doing it.

I was quite shocked to hear the poor lady has had trouble at other yards as nobody wanted theirs stabled next to him because they thought their horses would pick up the vice! Nonsense.
 
I think they can learn to copy behaviours - just some do, and some don't! None of ours had any vices (at all!) until the loan horse arrived last year, she cribbed everything she possibly could - now two of the boys do it, and in the 7 and 16 years of owning them never showed any signs of doing it before she turned up. They don't do it to the same extreme, but we have seen them gnawing the fences.
Two picked up door kicking from one of the others.
New horse weaves and box walks at times but the others just seem annoyed by it rather than joining in!


Interestingly! - I taught one of our horses to "pose" for the camera. As in, head up, tilted, grinning with teeth ;) He only does it when asked, and I have taken a billion pictures of him doing it.
Now - TWO of the other horses do exactly the same thing if a camera is pointed at them. They don't do it when asked, because I never taught them the cue - but if the camera is pointed at them, they'll go straight into the "pose" without thinking about it. So they're definitely very bright and can copy others!
Not overly handy for taking "normal" pictures of them though... :D
 
Brightbay said:
This is observant of you :) Can I explain, though, why it's not the same thing? A stereotypy like cribbing, weaving or windsucking is defined as a repetitive behaviour seen outside of its normal context, which appears to have no purpose. So, for example, horses are quite capable of shifting weight from side to side - we actually ask them to do it to move out of our way. In this situation, the behaviour has a purpose - the horse aims to move around something. If the horse is shifting weight from side to side but with no intent to move around something, and they're doing it repetitively, then it is a stereotypy.


Horses do indeed learn purposeful behaviours through watching other horses - foals learn a whole range of behaviours from watching their dams. But the behaviours have a purpose, and the horse learns that doing them earns a reward (watching dam graze hedgerow teaches foal that eating higher up leaves is nice) or avoid something the horse doesn't like (the shifting weight sideways, for example, can move the horse around e.g. a flapping plastic bag).

Horses are not motivated to learn things that have no value or purpose - so while the horse next to them is cribbing away, they will not copy the behaviour, as if they're not worried or stress, copying it won't gain them anything.

Horses housed together in poor housing/stressful situations will be more likely to display stereotypical behaviour... this doesn't mean they learned it by copying, just that they were all driven to find the same relief from stress at the same time (there is also a genetic predisposition that means some horses, housed and kept in the same way, will always be more likely to cope with stress this way than others).

ETA - door banging is slightly different - it is possible that it can be stereotypical, but in most cases it's what's known as a supersitious behaviour. The horse has kicked the door a few times accidentally in impatience, waiting for a feed - and has "decided" that it was the door banging that brought the food - horse thinks it's like magic! And we tend to bring dinner quicker to stop the door banging, so we reinforce it :) You can stop door banging by making sure that - using an approach and retreat process - the dinner bucket only gets closer to the horse when they're not banging ;) Sadly, it is not possible to retrain stereotypical behaviours, since they're not really under conscious control.
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What a lovely, full and intelligent answer brightbay. A breath of fresh air!:)
 
My boy has no vices - was kept alone for 3yrs until I moved into livery. I was a bit concerned as a LOT of them kick doors, one weaves & another box walks.

He's been there 8 months & the only thing he has started to copy is getting his headcollar off the hook at the side of his door & chucking it on the floor!!!
 
Rubbish! We have a windsucker at one end of the yard, and a cribber at the other - surely the whole yard would be doing it by now :rolleyes: Also the cribber is my TB who has been next door to, and turned out with my gelding for well over a year and he isn't doing it.

ETA: sorry, that came out a bit gruff - but I have had the same as the livery in the OP and it's very irritating.
 
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Glad to hear she deserved what I said to her, it was delivered more than a bit snidey by the yard know it all who thinks we are all plebs. Basically I thought she was a being narrow minded and ill informed, and likely to offend two very nice competent owners. However as you do sometimes do following a slight instant outburst you later doubt yourself and wonder if what you know is not actually current thinking/experiences. As I said earlier I always viewed vices as a form of stress relief due to the way horses are kept compared to the natural state of a wild herd.

I agree with the copying of learned behaviour especially door banging. The door bangers get fed first by the staff to shut them up and then each yard seems to acquire more door bangers - funny that! I have also noticed over the years they can pick up how to open bolts/pins if they are stabled next to a Houdini type.
 
We have a 15 year old cob who went to livery and suddenly started cribbing like mad. We moved her immediately and put stockholm tar over the top of the door and she stopped as quickly as she had started. This happened over the course of a week so for me the jury is out on why this behaviour came and went the way it did. Because of this when we had a serial cribber at home for a few weeks I wouldn't let her anywhere near him unless it set her off again.
 
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