Can I have some moral support please?! Shoes off today...

[chestnut cob]

I've been debating taking my horse's shoes off for a little while and have been looking into it. I had his backs taken off today and now having a real wobble about it so could do with a bit of moral support from those of you with unshod/barefoot horses please

A bit of background... my horse is a 17hh IDxTB, 15yo (16 this Spring) with bone spavins in both hocks that were diagnosed 2 years this May (ie, May 2009). He had corticosteroid injections into both hocks after diagnosis and a course of Adequan, followed by another course of Adequan in Nov 2009. Vet recommended a couple of osteo treatments and some physio. I questioned whether remedial farriery might help and the vet said I could consider lateral extensions. Vet and farrier do work quite closely together and my vet sends all new x-rays to the farrier. In April 2010, he had another set of steroid injections into both hocks and vet thinks he will need to be done every 10-12 months, for the time being.

My farrier has done a fantastic job with my horse's feet as they weren't great when I got him (2.5 years ago) - previous farrier had been shoeing him with low heels and long toes. I wanted to give him a bit of a break from shoes and if he stays sound, I'd like to keep him unshod/barefoot behind. I'm not sure what I'll do with the fronts but will probably leave those on, certainly for now anyway. Farrier firmly believes that no horse can cope without shoes unless it is a cob who only ever works in a school. He thinks a horse must have shoes to work and that my horse will need to be shod all round even when he is retired. Despite thinking I'm bonkers, he did agree to leave his back shoes off today. He told me that because his heels are quite low, he won't cope without his shoes behind. It seems he isn't concerned about the spavins, just about his low heels.

Can someone please tell me that there are other horses out there with low heels who coped OK when their shoes were removed?! The horse is sound, I've walked him up tonight, and seems happy on tarmac, grass and the stony bit of ground he towed me over to get to the grass He is, however, walking like he is wearing a pair of travel boots - is this normal?! He isn't footy and doesn't appear to be worrying about where he puts his feet.

I am now concerned that I've done a dreadful thing and will ruin my horse! I've told the farrier if it doesn't work, I'm happy to admit I was wrong and put shoes back on but obviously I do very much want this to work! Can anyone offer any support and advice? As I say, he seems sound though I'm a bit concerned that his fetlock joints seem a bit warm (not puffy though and legs aren't filled). He's in overnight and I'll turn him out as usual in the morning. Do I keep working him?

Thanks for reading and all help gratefully received

 

[cptrayes]

OK here is a barefoot spavined horse

http://tettimes.blogspot.com/

- He was mine before he emigrated to Boulder Colorado last year. He's 14 years old now, barefoot for 5 years, lame with spavins 4 years ago and now and perfectly sound. if you PM me I will send you photos of his cracked back feet and flatter than a pancake front ones with prolapsed frogs. Two farriers told me he would never work barefoot, one was bang up to date newly qualified, the other was a guy with 30 years experience.

This was him after 7 months:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/TSyflWRub3I/AAAAAAAAAqs/gMnmC1Xj94k/s1600/Tetley1.jpg

You won't ruin your horse. The worst that will happen is that you will shoe him again. The best is that he will make his own lateral extensions when he needs them and they will go when he doesn't. Your trimmer should not try and trim him too "perfect", he will probably need feet that are higher on the inside than the outside and if he puts them like that for himself then they should be left like that.


Good luck. Keep a careful watch on the effects of spring and summer grass and don't confuse it with the effects of hard ground.

 

[chestnut cob]

Thank you

ATM I'm still using my farrier. My insurance company will only let me use either a farrier or podiatrist (and the latter hasn't returned my phone call from last week as yet...) so for now, will stick with the farrier. I'm in a bit of a quandry because my farrier obviously doesn't think it will work and won't want to admit he was wrong, but I really can't believe he would deliberately trim the horse badly (as someone suggested to me the other day, though they were talking about farriers generally, not mine in particular). He is going to remain shod in front, for now at least, so I was hoping to stick with the farrier. Obviously if things don't look like they will work out with him then I will have to reassess...

He didn't do much to him today. Didn't trim the frogs or sole, just tidied up the nail holes and shaped, and a tiny amount of trim. The shape doesn't look much, if at all, different from how they look shod. His heels *look* lower than before but then I'm used to seeing him with lateral extensions. I compared to his still-shod front feet and the angle looks about the same.

Our grass is coming through already. He's stabled overnight with soaked hay (soaked tonight for tomorrow and thoroughly rinsed) and turned out on very poor, sparse grazing so hopefully should be OK for now. He will go out 24/7 at the end of next month but I'll have access to a box if need be, as well as a patch of dust and I'll more than likely muzzle him during the day...

 

[cptrayes]

With my horses, the hind feet are naturally deeper than the fronts and they don't bevel the toe so much, which basically results in a foot which I think is more difficult to trim "wrong" than a front one. There's no need to trim frog, usually, but it shouldn't cause a problem if he does. Watch what he does with the sole callous (the ring of sole just inside the white line, because you wouldn't normally want to remove any of that, and it's the classic mistake by a farrier who isn't used to a working barefoot trim. You would also normally expect to see your horse's frog solidly on the floor when stood on smooth hard ground. If you are starting with low heels, you should get this easily. Your horse will probably be fine with your farrier. You'll know soon enough. If he is sound before he is trimmed and footie or even lame after, then you'll know that something needs to be done differently.

If you need more support, pop over to UKNHCP.myfastforum.com and you'll find plenty from like-minded people with experience of horses with lameness problems.

If you would like my photos to show your farrier of the different depth of collateral groove that the horse above made for himself when his hocks hurt, PM me and I'll send them.

 

[Cello_song]

I'm a few months further down the line than you....and so far so good.

My horse has spavins in both hocks but also high ringbone in both fronts :-(

The back shoes came off at the end of October. He was a bit shuffely for a few days but pretty soon he looked great! So the fronts came off at the end of November. He had an abscess in a back foot in Dec, caused by an old nail hole becoming infected, but (touch wood) he's been fine since.

In fact, I would now say he is walking out the best I have seen him in over a year! Our yard is on a hill and is cobbled in sections and it had got to the stage where I was grooming him at the bottom of the yard so he didn't have to walk up then hobble back down the hill! Now he is marching down the yard and the stoney track to his field. I'm even going to get back on him this week! Not bad for a horse that is meant to be knackard!

I know the hard ground in summer will be the real test but I am keeping my fingers crossed that my 'shoes off' plan is going to help keep him sounder and happier. (cos i've tried everything else and it was bloody expensive and didn't seem to make any difference to my lovely boy!)

Keep us posted on your boy - I know the first few days are not nice ("have i done the right thing" thoughts!) but hopefully he'll look happier fairly quickly.

Good luck! x

 

[chestnut cob]

With my horses, the hind feet are naturally deeper than the fronts and they don't bevel the toe so much, which basically results in a foot which I think is more difficult to trim "wrong" than a front one. There's no need to trim frog, usually, but it shouldn't cause a problem if he does. Watch what he does with the sole callous (the ring of sole just inside the white line, because you wouldn't normally want to remove any of that, and it's the classic mistake by a farrier who isn't used to a working barefoot trim. You would also normally expect to see your horse's frog solidly on the floor when stood on smooth hard ground. If you are starting with low heels, you should get this easily. Your horse will probably be fine with your farrier. You'll know soon enough. If he is sound before he is trimmed and footie or even lame after, then you'll know that something needs to be done differently.

All he has done is rasp out as much of the nail holes as possible and just tidy up the shape. He hasn't removed any sole or any frog. I would say the frog is definitely on the floor. I don't think he's uncomfortable... I walked him around a bit this evening to have a look and he wasn't bothered by any of the surfaces (we have mainly tarmac and grass with some stony patches - was happy on all).

My main concern is him walking like he has travel boots on (you know, when they walk like their legs don't belong to them!) and the heat around his fetlocks. The heat is marginally worse on the LH and he's tending to rest this foot a little, though if he is going to rest a leg, it will always be this one anyway so that may not be anything to be concerned about.

If you would like my photos to show your farrier of the different depth of collateral groove that the horse above made for himself when his hocks hurt, PM me and I'll send them.

Yes please, have PMd you.

 

[chestnut cob]

I'm a few months further down the line than you....and so far so good.

My horse has spavins in both hocks but also high ringbone in both fronts :-(

Thanks for your reply and experiences. Sorry to hear about your boy

The back shoes came off at the end of October. He was a bit shuffely for a few days but pretty soon he looked great! So the fronts came off at the end of November. He had an abscess in a back foot in Dec, caused by an old nail hole becoming infected, but (touch wood) he's been fine since.

I actually don't think my boy is shuffling at all, he was over tracking massively behind tonight though I don't know what he'll be like in the morning after a night in the box. The test will be when I turn him out in the morning and how he moves in the field...

In fact, I would now say he is walking out the best I have seen him in over a year! Our yard is on a hill and is cobbled in sections and it had got to the stage where I was grooming him at the bottom of the yard so he didn't have to walk up then hobble back down the hill! Now he is marching down the yard and the stoney track to his field. I'm even going to get back on him this week! Not bad for a horse that is meant to be knackard!

I know the hard ground in summer will be the real test but I am keeping my fingers crossed that my 'shoes off' plan is going to help keep him sounder and happier. (cos i've tried everything else and it was bloody expensive and didn't seem to make any difference to my lovely boy!)

This is nice to read and I'm glad he's looking better! Was he lame and out of work before you took his shoes off? Mine is still in work, though not hard ATM for various reasons. He is currently working the best he has for a long time, which is another reason why my farrier thinks I'm nuts...

Keep us posted on your boy - I know the first few days are not nice ("have i done the right thing" thoughts!) but hopefully he'll look happier fairly quickly.

Good luck! x

I have given myself a headache with worrying LOL!!

 

[Damnation]

I had a little TB x racer and she was barefoot behind for 3 years. Coped on gravel, the works, absolutely fine! Hacked her out twice a week at walk and she was fine. Only put shoes on all round because I wanted to do much more hacking! Tried her barefoot infront and she was crippled, now way! But her backs were solid! When the vet came to test for an abcess in her near hind she really struggled to bore a hole because her feet were so solid!
There are suppliments and oils out there that can help you!
I knew one that went from shod all round do barefoot for 4 years and still is barefoot. Solid feet, not one crack in them and she hacked out 4-5 times a week including fast work in the plantation!
Each horse is differant all you can do is try and see

 

[chestnut cob]

Thanks Damnation. The good news is that this morning he is walking normally again and all of the heat in his back legs I was concerned about has gone He seems happy enough and TBH I don't think he has even noticed his shoes are missing! Am going to try a little hack on the roads tomorrow and see how he feels.

I would be interested to hear from people what I should now be looking out for? In terms of how his feet look, what do I need to keep an eye on?

 

[Cello_song]

I'm so glad to hear your boy isn't shuffling - mine is a total wimp but at least he realised quite quickly that barefeet isn't that bad! I hope yours looked good when you turned him out in the field this morning!

Like you, before I took the shoes off he was sound (after having been intermittently lame from June - Aug) and enjoying hacking out. So I think lots of people thought I was mad since it'd taken a while to get him ridable again! The only thing I was still unhappy about was that he was still pottery going downhill. So i decided to try taking his shoes off to see if long term, he would be happier. To help with the arthritis my farrier had been doing rolled toes but I thought that over time his front feet just didn't really match his legs anymore so I wanted to give this a try. He has been out of work since the fronts came off in Novemeber, but mainly to let his feet adjust, too much snow and then me being away on holiday. I'm going to try a short hack tomorrow though so fingers crossed he walks downhill as well as he does without me on his back!

Know the feeling about the headaches LOL! Sometimes I wonder if I should have got a goldfish instead?!?

xx

 

[chestnut cob]

I'm so glad to hear your boy isn't shuffling - mine is a total wimp but at least he realised quite quickly that barefeet isn't that bad! I hope yours looked good when you turned him out in the field this morning!

He looked fine, thanks Bounced out of the stable, stormed to the field and promptly started picking on his field mate so he isn't feeling any different to normal *rolls eyes* I went back to have a look when I'd finished mucking out and the whole group were just stood snoozing in the sun. He certainly wasn't shifting his weight or looking uncomfortable so fingers crossed it lasts!

Like you, before I took the shoes off he was sound (after having been intermittently lame from June - Aug) and enjoying hacking out. So I think lots of people thought I was mad since it'd taken a while to get him ridable again! The only thing I was still unhappy about was that he was still pottery going downhill. So i decided to try taking his shoes off to see if long term, he would be happier. To help with the arthritis my farrier had been doing rolled toes but I thought that over time his front feet just didn't really match his legs anymore so I wanted to give this a try. He has been out of work since the fronts came off in Novemeber, but mainly to let his feet adjust, too much snow and then me being away on holiday. I'm going to try a short hack tomorrow though so fingers crossed he walks downhill as well as he does without me on his back!

Your posts have been really helpful - so glad to know I'm not the only person who has a sound horse when they removed the shoes! Hope your boy is OK on his hack! I am going to do a walk in hand tomorrow first thing I think, see how he looks on the tarmac, and then hack at the weekend.

Know the feeling about the headaches LOL! Sometimes I wonder if I should have got a goldfish instead?!?

xx

Mmm, think you have a point there!!

 

[Kallibear]

Sounds good so far

Have a look at hoof boots as a tempory measure too. They're really useful to begin with and means you can pretty much keep doing what you were doing. They also really help improve feet because corrent movement is so important in strengthening structure, and boots allow that by keeping them comfy to move correctly

 

[chestnut cob]

Have a look at hoof boots as a tempory measure too. They're really useful to begin with and means you can pretty much keep doing what you were doing. They also really help improve feet because corrent movement is so important in strengthening structure, and boots allow that by keeping them comfy to move correctly

Thanks I've been wondering about boots actually but think I am going to see how he gets on with some light work first. He is supposed to be having a quiet Winter/early Spring anyway (vet's suggestion), just a bit of school work and some hacking, so I'm hoping he will cope with that.

Next thing to worry about....getting small stones stuck in his feet!! Especially the one I can't always pick out, if he struggles to pick it up (shivers)... it's no wonder I have to dye the grey out of my hair LOL!!!

 

[Kallibear]

He'll only get small stone stuck in the white line, which will tighten up as new, stronger, growth grows down. They rarely bother them anyways: it's the stones on the soles that get them initially.

Boots are very useful but you may not need them. It'll take a while for his feet to thicken and strengthen but sounds like you'll be doing it slowly. His diet sounds good already, which is a major help.

If you do go for boots, make sure you get the style most suited to his foot shape (long or narrow or wide etc), and have a look for second hand boots on ebay.

Fingers crossed your farrier becomes a bit more supportive! He's obviously very pro-shoes and his first advise, if your horse is a little footsore, will no doubt be to put shoes back on asap, not suggesting alternatives. Keep trying to get ahold of a good trimmer, even for just one consutaltion to give you advise and reassurance. Unless your farrier is a fool, the difference in the trim they do will be negliable.

 

[chestnut cob]

Unless your farrier is a fool, the difference in the trim they do will be negliable.

This is something I've been wondering for a while. I've asked lots of people how the trim that a trimmer/podiatrist would do differs from how a *good* farrier will trim and no one has been able to give me an answer. My first thought was that there shouldn't be that much difference unless you get either a terrible trimmer or terrible farrier!

I took him for a walk in hand this morning, only about a mile or so up the road and back down. You wouldn't know he'd had his shoes removed - fingers crossed this carries on! He sounds like he has all four feet shod, not just the fronts. I am hoping this is a good sign! I would actually go so far as to say he looks more comfortable behind, unshod, than he does in front. Also seems to be more confident about where he puts his back feet. Anyway, he certainly wasn't bothered by going out on the road and was more concerned with trying to eat the bobble on my hat and blowing hot air into my ears. This in itself is most unlike my horse, who is generally a grumpy old bugger. He is definitely standing square more often too...

 

[Kallibear]

Sounds great so far Any footsoreness sometimes starts after a couple of days after too much work, as the feet just aren't used to it. Lots of little hacks is the way to go, and hopefully he'll never have a problem. Some horses, esp those who's diet is right, don't notice their shoes are gone.

A good trim is a good trim, regardless of who does it. Some farriers shouldn't be allowed anywhere near barefeet as they trim the foot as if for shoes (chop frogs off, par soles down, don't roll well enough) but most will do a decent job. Equally some trimmers haven't got a clue. Whilst balance is important, it's not the end of the world with barefeet because unless they do something stupid, the horse will wear the balance they need with enough work on hard surfaces.

The biggest difference bewteen a farrier and trimmer is the latter will (should!) be able to give you advise on diet, work, management and boots, and things to look out for, and how to deal with any problems. Most farriers don't offer that and will just put shoes back on as a first port of call should there be a problem.

 

[chestnut cob]

To my uneducated eye, my farrier's trim seems pretty good. He didn't trim the frog or sole, has trimmed a little of the hoof (mostly to remove the nail holes as much as possible, by the looks of it) and shaped it. I think he has a bit of flare on the outside of both hinds but he has that when shod so my guess is that he always has it regardless - be interesting to see if this changes while the shoes are off.

Yes, you are right, his first port of call would be to put shoes back on.

We have a walker at the yard so I was planning to give him a couple of short sessions on there as well as short hacks. My idea was that he could do 20-30 mins on there in the morning then be ridden in the evenings. The surface is sand so it shouldn't be much different to working in the arena and will get him doing a bit more than just mooching around the field.

 

[Kallibear]

The flare should tighten up with new growth. The fact it's outside only suggests the balance wasn't quite right and he needs the outsides to be a little shorter (which tallys perfectly with most bonespavin horses needing a slightly higher inside wall, which begs the question, what causes what, bone spavin or foot inbalance.......).

The sand walker might be a problem as sand is very abrasive on the feet and it will take a while for his feet growth to catch up with wear (it does happen, honest! Usually a month or so). Hard smooth tarmac is the very best stuff you can take him out on, so getting out on the raods for short hacks would be greart for his feet.

 

[chestnut cob]

Hmm, interesting about the walker. Our arena is also sand (well, sand/rubber mix but more of the former) so I wonder if that might cause a problem. The walker is concrete under the sand and the latter isn't deep. Maybe that will make it worse, eek...! As well as his feet, I do need to consider his weight because he is such a good doer. I already feed MagOx which I think helps with his weight, he gets overnight-soaked hay and virtually no hard feed (just enough to carry the supplements) so there is nothing I can change there - he has to be worked but I appreciate I've got to get the balance right. Hoof boots aren't really the ideal option because he shivers so sometimes struggles to pick up one back leg...ie, I won't always be able to put on one boot.

I'm going to take some pics of his feet on Saturday morning which I can post if you or anyone else has a passing interest in how they currently look..? Although I'd like to stick with my farrier if I can, I am inclined to get a trimmer to look at him, even if only a one off consultation. I've been trying to get hold of a podiatrist who is fairly local but no luck yet

P.S. I've just read my post back and it's not meant to come across as negatively as it does! I realise it looks a bit like I'm saying everything is too much trouble or putting obstacles in the way, which I don't mean to. I'm just thinking out loud really!

 

[cptrayes]

The flare should tighten up with new growth. The fact it's outside only suggests the balance wasn't quite right and he needs the outsides to be a little shorter (which tallys perfectly with most bonespavin horses needing a slightly higher inside wall, which begs the question, what causes what, bone spavin or foot inbalance.......).

t.

Interesting question kallibear and one I have been pondering recently. I have had two horses with spavins, one shod pretty much until he got them and one to all intents never shod. The one who has never been shod has the most EEEEEnormous lumps you are ever likely to see on a spavined horse - think half a boiled egg - and never been lame on them for one day. I've periodically done flexions, no response. I've had lessons regularly with a very good trainer - only comment that he moved his foot in under his body slightly on one rein (classic spavin movement). They have been hot, and they have got bigger and bigger, but he has never for one moment seemed lame, bilaterally or singly. The other was definitely lame but had much smaller bone developments. Of course these are only two horses, but I would just love to know whether being barefoot had any effect on how easily the second horse sailed through it all.

 

[chestnut cob]

If it helps to know, my horse went very lame with his spavins. Vet came out to x-ray and was amazed to see only very tiny spavins. He had expected to see something huge on x-rays of both legs but in fact my horse only has "mild spavins" in both hocks. Before diagnosis he was shod with plain shoes and after with lateral extensions. He was bilaterally lame behind and had very shuffly movement, along with being sore (compensating) across his SI and lumbar regions. I will be watching his movement with interest now to see how it changes - hopefully for the better!

 

[maggiesmum]

How about videoing him moving now and then again in a month or so to see if it changes how his hind legs move? Just out of curiosity? So many times i've kicked myself for not having taken more pictures or videos of things before hand.

 

[chestnut cob]

How about videoing him moving now and then again in a month or so to see if it changes how his hind legs move? Just out of curiosity? So many times i've kicked myself for not having taken more pictures or videos of things before hand.

Hello MM

That's a good idea actually. I should have taken your advice initially and photographed his feet while he was still in shoes as well...

I was planning to school tomorrow night so I may do a bit on the lunge first and video that. I will be taking hoof photos on Sat am in the light.

 

[beeswax]

What i have come to learn with my boy and having tried a farrier and a barefoot trimmer is this (1) do not remove frog unless it is loose bits or the frog has grown further than the apex (2) heels should be level with frog on the ground, long heels not a good thing as the frog cannot touch the ground and get the stimulation it needs, can result in thrush from contracted heels, also shorter heels make for a heel landing first which is ideal (3) not to rasp on the outside of the hoof wall as this needs to get thicker with growth and also from my vets points of view to encourage a foot to grow it short be trimmed regularly 4 weeks, rather than allow for a 6-8 week gap by doing this the hoof growth will slow so it wont be able to get thicker faster and you will get flare which will crack/chip etc etc (4) a shorter toe allows for good break over rather a long toe which will lead to tripping/stumbling and damaging the foot you are trying to grow. Remember you are doing the best thing for him. This is also just my opinion and experience others may have a different point of view.

 

[chestnut cob]

Thanks beeswax, that's helpful. Judging by how quickly his feet are growing ATM I wouldn't be surprised if he needs to see the farrier (for a trim!) in 4 weeks, especially given he didn't really trim much this time. If he sees him again in 4 weeks, then he'll be back 2 weeks after that to do shoe the fronts, so he'll be seeing him twice as often.

 

[brucea]

Hello everyone - this is where we are all hiding now?

Don't forget the linseed - great stuff and really helps with joint problems!

 

[brucea]

Oh - and keep your shoes - you'll be able to see changes in hoof shape.

 

[chestnut cob]

Hello everyone - this is where we are all hiding now?

Don't forget the linseed - great stuff and really helps with joint problems!

The Total Eclipse balancer from Simple System that I'm feeding has linseed in Linseed has been recommended by lots of people though - SS said it has the perfect ration of omega 3 and 6 (I think) which is what makes it such a good anti-inflammatory.

 

[chestnut cob]

Oh - and keep your shoes - you'll be able to see changes in hoof shape.

Farrier took them! Maggiesmum suggested taking pics while he was still shod which I never got around to doing and am now kicking myself!

I am slowly getting over the complete mental breakdown I had on Tuesday and am starting to find all of this quite fascinating. Obviously I won't be so fascinated if he gets footsore as I'll be back to the same worries I had earlier in the week...

 

[Clava]

Farrier took them! Maggiesmum suggested taking pics while he was still shod which I never got around to doing and am now kicking myself!

I am slowly getting over the complete mental breakdown I had on Tuesday and am starting to find all of this quite fascinating. Obviously I won't be so fascinated if he gets footsore as I'll be back to the same worries I had earlier in the week...

Do take pics, it is fascinating to see the changes. I hope it all goes well for you, all mine are barefoot and it is brilliant.