can i have your thoughts... ridden issues

I'm in agreement with the posters questioning the level of work for a four year old. Still very young and it sounds like theres quite a workload both mentally and physically. I'd be inclined to give her a couple of months off to chill, and take her right back to basics, with a new instructor. Sounds like she hasnt been given the chance of a good start..Dont think "problem" horses are born, generally humans cause the problem.
 
Thank you guys for all your responses. I am heading to bed soon but i will check back here tomorrow.

I may well end up stepping back and just watching whilst biting my tongue, but as I've been asked to see if i can help I'll give it my best shot first. I'll to choose my words carefully, I've always communicated better with horses not humans.

Thank you x
 
samhorse said:
I am wondering if going back to long raining and lunge work be of benefit too.
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I would say so, but would give her some time off first then basically re-back her. I'd do plenty of ground work and bonding with her before I even thought of sitting on her, and when I did, I wouldnt carry a whip! Hope this can be sorted for the horses sake, as if she is sold on, she will take her issues with her
 
samhorse said:
I am wondering if going back to long raining and lunge work be of benefit too.
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Yes that should all be part of the mix at that age the leading from another horse has helped me turn round some difficult youngsters I do it in walk as I dont think trotting the babys on the road.
I school my four old three time a week but only once would be as long as half an hour the other times it would short hack go in the school for twent mins.they would have lessons with my trainer 45 mins now and again.
If they have asked you to help you need a clear way forward to present to them.
I would be really worried there was something wrong with this baby and my first advice would to persuade them to get a vet to see the bad behaviour .
 
Normally, I'd say yes to longlining & light lunging at that age. But whether its pain or stress/behavior related, the result is a young horse that doesn't enjoy work, so I'd hack as its something he's not done much of. I'd happily longline on hacks if its something he enjoys, but my main aim would be to make sure he doesn't feel any pressure & learns to enjoy himself, so right now I wouldn't want to do anything he may react badly to, building confidence is the key.
 
Thank you everyone. Gotta stop thinking about this pony and get some sleep. Night all. If i come back you've all permission to shout sleep at me!
 
first thoughts are pony is 4
grass is coming through

combination of these results in a pony that can have significantly changed shape in even a couple of weeks, so saddle needs checking at least monthly at the moment

my 12.2 started rearing about this time last year
on checking BALANCE of saddle was the issue
he'd grown 2 or 3 inches at the wither over the previous 6 months
(not necessarily all actual growth but change of his balance too)
v normal for youngsters to 'come up' at withers significantly around this age

(btw as we caught this immediately and adjusted saddle with temporary padding behind before he was next ridden, the problem disappeared 'instantly'
- he was just using the only way he had of telling us something was amiss)

most people check saddle at withers and shoulders only, which appeared to be fine
but clearance at back, with a rider on board, had become v non existent as saddle had tipped up

re instructor v child
usual caveat about not having seen either ride
but assuming instructor rides at an appropriate level
then they are bound to be more balanced and 'stiller' in the saddle
than a competent child,
so with a 'better' rider saddle balance and fit can be mitigated to an extent,
causing less discomfort

(where applicable) it is always v difficult to 'sort' a pony that is too small to be realistically schooled by an adult
as you have to get the child to a level where they can do the schooling themselves
and those children are v few and far between

and any behavioural problem will never get solved by a weekly session

so, in summary,
get a second opinion on back, tack etc...
(and i would really check out the balance and clearance issue, with and without the child riding)
and if not these then they need to find someone small enough to ride the pony
and still capable of schooloing through the issues
for an intensive period over a month or so

and on the hour's work
an hour of an average child's lesson might well be ok
but an hour of genuine schooling
for any four year old is, IMO, too much
 
I had further thoughts on this one as it is going to be hard for you to get anywhere, I think, is the child old enough to be able to state her case to the parents.

If so could the two of you come up with a plan, ditch the instructor = less outgoings, let you take it on at a sensible rate, with the child involved, until a set time maybe the summer holidays finishing, to get the pony going more happily. The key to the parents may be to offer to sell the pony if it does not work out, at least this way it may have some chance and they should see it as a win-win opportunity.
It would mean a lot of commitment from you for possibly not much financial gain but may work if the child can stand up for herself and knows you are going to be there every step of the way.

I have had similar situations, where I have had full control and it has worked out well with smiling children and confident ponies at the end.
 
The first port of call when a horse is showing this sort of behaviour has to be pain.

Teeth, tack, all the usual things need checking obviously by someone who knows what they are looking at.

If you are as satisfied as you can be that, there is no physical reason for the behaviour, then it has to be something else.

Lack of confidence is normally where the problem lies and building the horses confidence in the rider is paramount, and should be started on the ground.

Being a rough or tough rider is not going to help in the long term and the problem escalates, then you find that the horse puts up barriers which restricts what you want to do with it. The favourite is, he won't hack out alone, safely.

I never have and never will, put young inexperienced children on young inexperienced horses. My kids all had schoolmaster ponies, and my grandchildren the same. When the kids can ride properly with an independant seat, then they can have green horses to bring on.

If the pony lead reins ok, then it is taking confidence from the other horse, so I would guess this is a cofidence issue.
 
The rider is 15, she's had loan ponies and this is her first purchased pony. In my opinion it's not a great match but it seems a young pony is all funds would allow. I didn't know them at this time. If this doesn't work out the pony goes and is not replaced, the girl doesn't want to be horseless.

From what i have found out it's always been a problem, but i also discovered it wasn't weaned until 18months, i can't help think this might be contributing
 
samhorse said:
The rider is 15, she's had loan ponies and this is her first purchased pony. In my opinion it's not a great match but it seems a young pony is all funds would allow. I didn't know them at this time. If this doesn't work out the pony goes and is not replaced, the girl doesn't want to be horseless.

From what i have found out it's always been a problem, but i also discovered it wasn't weaned until 18months, i can't help think this might be contributing
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Personally, I don't think age of the child always goes hand in hand with experience. My kids spent all their spare time with the horses, before and after school, weekends and holidays, so by the time they were 10 all could ride comfortably with an independant seat.

Leaving a foal till 18 months isn't a good idea, I don't think.

Our foals have always been weaned at 6mths, which on balance I feel is about right.

Their education starts early, as soon as they are born if we have bred it or as soon as it arrives if we have bought one in.

All our foals can be haltered and tied, will give their feet up, can be lead, backed up, ponied off another horse and rugged.

When the time comes to back them, the jobs done really and we have very few issues which need addressing, but the horse gets a very experienced sympathetic, confident rider until the horse is what I consider safe, reliable and most importantly not green.
 
Thank you again for all your comments. I know what i would do if it was my pony. Rule out pain, take a different approach and ditch current help. I just need to find a way of expressing myself to them so the understand and don't take offence, i am much better communicating with horses than people.
 
How about approaching it with a comment along the line of 'I know it sounds strange but... I once knew a horse that... I wonder if its worth...' You & we all might know its glaringly obvious what's going on, but if you make it sound like yours is just a vague idea there's more chance they'll listen than if you just try & convince them they & the instructor are wrong. Then once you start getting a result, they'll hopefully start doubting the instructor & previous methods themselves. Would help too if you could find a way of exposing them to some normal trainers & instructors, or even a half decent book. A good book might help convince them that theirs isn't the acceptable way.
 
OK. My four year old (April foal) is being backed at the moment.

RE the pony in the OP. If he/she was mine I would

1, stop all ridden work.
2, get a Vet to look at the pony and possibly X-ray for kissing spine. Definately do a bute trial.
3, turn the pony away for 6 months.
4, if no pain/physical problem, reback the pony from scratch (with a well fitting saddle) after the 6 months break from work, possibly at a professional yard eg Janet George's yard.

This pony could have 20 plus years of ridden work with this girl if things are done properly.

I personally find (from the description) that the current instructor is nothing more than a bully, who probably wont want this constant money earner stopping (so will probably be very against giving the pony a break and the obviously needed physical checks).

TBH, if it does end up that the pony has no pain - then the training style does not suit him/her and they will need a break from ridden work anyway (before starting ridden work again with a more sympathetic trainer).
 
Faracat said:
OK. My four year old (April foal) is being backed at the moment.

RE the pony in the OP. If he/she was mine I would

1, stop all ridden work.
2, get a Vet to look at the pony and possibly X-ray for kissing spine. Definately do a bute trial.
3, turn the pony away for 6 months.
4, if no pain/physical problem, reback the pony from scratch (with a well fitting saddle) after the 6 months break from work, possibly at a professional yard eg Janet George's yard.

This pony could have 20 plus years of ridden work with this girl if things are done properly.

I personally find (from the description) that the current instructor is nothing more than a bully, who probably wont want this constant money earner stopping (so will probably be very against giving the pony a break and the obviously needed physical checks).

TBH, if it does end up that the pony has no pain - then the training style does not suit him/her and they will need a break from ridden work anyway (before starting ridden work again with a more sympathetic trainer).
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this
 
Faracat thank you. I discussed exactly what you pointed out in your reply at great length (before id even read it) with the owners, who agreed i made sense and then got on the phone to the instructor. This morning i find out the instructor is having none of it. Think i might just have to back off before someone gets held at pitchfork point, much as don't want to, but some people just have to learn the hard way i suppose :-(
 
That is such a shame it sounds like you are getting through to the owners but the bully of an instructor, who obviously knows everything:rolleyes: does not want to lose a source of income.
Hopefully they will see this sooner rather than later, the longer she is involved the less hope for the pony.
 
samhorse said:
Faracat thank you. I discussed exactly what you pointed out in your reply at great length (before id even read it) with the owners, who agreed i made sense and then got on the phone to the instructor. This morning i find out the instructor is having none of it. Think i might just have to back off before someone gets held at pitchfork point, much as don't want to, but some people just have to learn the hard way i suppose :-(
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Very sad for the pony, but I think that you are right and that backing off is your only option. :(
 
It's never nice watching a horse going down the wrong route but it's not your horse you have tried I would just look away now very hard but you need to do it.
 
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