Can pony learnt behaviour be resolved?

[Maeby]

Hi! I have a pony that has learnt to throw the odd buck to get out of work. Is this something that can actually be resolved, or is it stuck on there? All advice online is for anxious horses or American buckers.
it is learnt and not pain related….
Thanks

 

[Patterdale]

Is this the pony you recently bought?

The answer is no, you can’t, and it needs to go back. To be totally blunt, sorry.

It will always do this, and it will frighten/injure your child. Or more likely both.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Yes you can by being consistent. I take it , its not your childs pony? You will need a strong stomach and strong legs and a confident rider that can sit it out.

 

[BBP]

Hi! I have a pony that has learnt to throw the odd buck to get out of work. Is this something that can actually be resolved, or is it stuck on there? All advice online is for anxious horses or American buckers.
it is learnt and not pain related….
Thanks

With the greatest of respect, if it is the pony from your other thread, you have only had it for a month, it has a back history of bucking and being passed around for it so unless you have had it scoped, scanned, xrayed, blood tested, worked up fully, worked with an excellent physio/osteopath in the last week, you have no way of knowing that it is learnt and not pain related. It is that sort of thought process that has led to this pony being passed around so much. I’m not saying you should keep him and spend thousands on investigations, just please don’t assume it is a learned behaviour.

 

[ycbm]

it is learnt and not pain related….

I'm guessing you've been told this by "experts".

If I had a tenner for every vet, trainer, judge, yard manager, very experienced horse person I've heard of swear that this kind of thing was behavioural not pain, when it is later found to be pain, then I would be rich.

As BBP says, you can know this unless you pay thousands in diagnostics and even then .... you can't know because there are bits of the horse diagnostics can't reach.
.

 

[ycbm]

Has the seller refused to take the pony back?
.

 

[maya2008]

My old NF bucked for fun - never bothered me, but when she started getting sharers it bothered them, so I had to fix it. As an adult, yes I could teach her not to. It was ‘woohoo’ bucks though not naughty ones. Our Shetland bucks to tell children off - never going to stop that. Equally, a couple of years ago, my son retrained a pony who had a delightful habit of running full pelt at the gate at random moments, then swerving and dumping the child in it. He was so fast it was really dangerous. My son fixed that but when he stopped riding the pony and they got a sharer for the pony, he gradually went back to the habit because the sharer wasn’t competent enough to stop him. So all that work in vain really! Our farrier has one that was originally bought as a first pony - bucks for fun, was sold on to him for that reason and he took the pony on because his child is competent and doesn’t mind. Still does it, years later!

Even assuming your pony’s bucking is not pain related, your child isn’t experienced enough to retrain a pony, or to keep the training up if someone else did it. Send this one back before you run out of time to do so, and look elsewhere.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Hi! I have a pony that has learnt to throw the odd buck to get out of work. Is this something that can actually be resolved, or is it stuck on there? All advice online is for anxious horses or American buckers.
it is learnt and not pain related….
Thanks

This pony? If so, this sounds like an ingrained habit in what is supposed to be a first ridden pony. I wouldn't be putting a small inexperienced child of mine on him. First riddens don't do this.

He came from a dealer and has been with her a month or so. It seems he’s had a few owners in the last few years with a few different environments, I’ve found out today that he is a historical bucker, hence the multiple homes. I hate to do it to him again but we are not the right people for him

 

[Maeby]

The pony is going back, but I’m really interested in if this sort of behaviour can be resolved or if he is stuck with it. To not be curious is to not learn. I would say it is learnt as it only happens with nervous riders and he is fine with a strong one. I’m not doing any tests beyond the usual as he’s not staying but based on what I know and what I’ve been told it’s behaviour and I find that interesting. People could be a little less judgy on here, it’s not very encouraging to post for information if that’s what comes back.
move been trying lots of different ponies and they all seem to have some quirk, the general consensus seems to be that ponies are naughty and learn tricks… I wonder if they can be sorted or are they stuck? Helpful replies only please

 

[estela]

IME ponies can be very cheeky and some definitely try to push boundaries if they can get away with it. The ones that don't take advantage are worth their
weight in gold and are priced accordingly. It would be difficult to comment on your pony without seeing him. If the bucking isn't pain related then yes consistent riding by an experienced person would probably put a stop to it but then if he was ridden by someone less experienced again, ie a new owner, it could possibly start again. I speak as a pony owner!

 

[maya2008]

Children’s ponies have a different experience from horses with adult riders. Children are still learning, sometimes they don’t listen or they are unbalanced and accidentally hurt the pony. Ponies get jabbed in the mouth - over jumps, into canter, losing balance in trot and more. Kids can land hard in rising trot, or on the back of the saddle, causing discomfort there also. Then there are the confusing signals, child telling pony off because it is simply tired or finding the work hard. None of that is pleasant for the pony. Whereas a horse may only buck for fun ‘woohoo!’ or in pain from an injury, a child can inflict discomfort on a pony simply by riding it, and so ponies buck to express their discomfort - sometimes because they are hurt, or their tack doesn’t fit, but also because the child is causing problems.

Once they have learned that, for example, less confident riders often lose balance and cause them discomfort, they have learned to get them off fast, and you will struggle to change that point of view.

I was never upset with our Shetland when she taught my kids they were doing things wrong - she gave them good seats and hands, because if they didn’t ride nicely, they got dumped on the floor. Much more effective than any lessons with an instructor! Little 3yo Welsh filly spooked with my daughter last week while riding bareback with a bridle in the woods - kid stayed on just fine thanks to our Shetland and her militant ways!

 

[splashgirl45]

An experienced rider can push them through pain so it’s very difficult to judge if the pony is feeling pain, saddle fit can cause the behaviour you are talking about and if a pony has been sore on their back for a long while it can take a much longer time for them to realise that the well fitting saddle will not cause pain . If no lameness or stiffness is showing it’s very difficult to judge if it’s a pain issue . You don’t know this pony so don’t have any way of knowing what the problem is. Those of us who have owned our horses for years know when something isn’t right and we badger the vets until we find the problem but with an animal that has been passed around it’s not so easy

 

[stangs]

The first question should always be “why is the pony trying to get out of work?” More often than not, the answer is because work is painful. Sometimes, the answer may be that work has historically been painful, or that the animal is perceiving pain that may not be visible in tests. Or, in the minority of cases, it may be that work is boring/stressful/irritating.

In short, “it is learnt and not pain related….” is nonsensical.

Also - just because a horse doesn’t perform a behaviour with a more experienced rider, doesn’t mean the behaviour isn’t pain-related. Experienced riders will be more balanced in the saddle, which will reduce the sensation of pain. Some folk are also just talented at making a lame horse look sound, or at making themselves more unpleasant than the pain.

Anyway, there’s no one technique for retraining a horse to buck. If it really is for completely non-pain-related reasons, then you’ll need a lot of schooling from a good rider to break the horse’s habit. Even then, there’s no guarantee that the horse won’t buck again when ridden by a novice.

If it’s for pain-related reasons, then you have to go down the route that fits the cause of the pain. That can mean anything from hock injections to groundwork. Depends 100% on the problem.

 

[scruffyponies]

Great post Stangs.
I agree, except that IME where tension related (which may manifest as pain, who knows?), the process of settling a horse into his work will often eliminate the bucking. This can be 'riding through' by a rider, who is giving the pony confidence, lots of confidence-giving, fun hacking in experienced company (this is our go-to), or even just more turnout than he has had before.

Several of ours used to buck, and don't any more, and it's not because they're being ridden by masters

 

[Maeby]

IME ponies can be very cheeky and some definitely try to push boundaries if they can get away with it. The ones that don't take advantage are worth their
weight in gold and are priced accordingly. It would be difficult to comment on your pony without seeing him. If the bucking isn't pain related then yes consistent riding by an experienced person would probably put a stop to it but then if he was ridden by someone less experienced again, ie a new owner, it could possibly start again. I speak as a pony owner!

Thanks pony owner (there should be a different forum for ponies I think!), that is helpful. He basically needs a confident rider and experienced home and not be ridden by any novice afterwards. I’ll make sure I push the dealer to home him with that set up. On the other hand, trying to buy a pony that has been great with some kids might not be so great with mine, it’s defo a challenge!

 

[Maeby]

An experienced rider can push them through pain so it’s very difficult to judge if the pony is feeling pain, saddle fit can cause the behaviour you are talking about and if a pony has been sore on their back for a long while it can take a much longer time for them to realise that the well fitting saddle will not cause pain . If no lameness or stiffness is showing it’s very difficult to judge if it’s a pain issue . You don’t know this pony so don’t have any way of knowing what the problem is. Those of us who have owned our horses for years know when something isn’t right and we badger the vets until we find the problem but with an animal that has been passed around it’s not so easy

Sadly, I think he has had a few homes this last year for this reason. It’s a shame that no one has been able to invest time in him as he’s be a fab pony otherwise. Everyone I speak to has an issue with their kids pony, I wonder if you just have to choose your vice!

 

[nutjob]

I bought a horse aged 2. He was a really lovely boy, lightly backed at 3, did a bit of intro dressage at 4 and at 5 started jumping and asking a bit more on the flat. His previous good behaviour deteriorated, spooking, spinning, bucking and finally rearing vertical until almost went over backwards. A cursory vet check didn't find anything. 2 very experience trainers said it was his age, he would grow out of it and my riding particularly my nerves were affecting him (rode holding neck strap all the time!) The lady who backed him rode him several times and he was generally OK, so it did seem like it was my riding that was a problem, until he very nearly dumped the trainer. I then took him back for a much more extensive veterinary work up which resulted in him having to be immediately retired from ridden work and then PTS at age 6.

This is probably not helpful if you are convinced that the pony doesn't have any pain related issue despite not having a full vet work up, but whilst it was a horrific experience at the time I do think I have learned a lot from it. In future you may have a pony which cannot be returned and are forced to consider all options.

 

[Maeby]

I bought a horse aged 2. He was a really lovely boy, lightly backed at 3, did a bit of intro dressage at 4 and at 5 started jumping and asking a bit more on the flat. His previous good behaviour deteriorated, spooking, spinning, bucking and finally rearing vertical until almost went over backwards. A cursory vet check didn't find anything. 2 very experience trainers said it was his age, he would grow out of it and my riding particularly my nerves were affecting him (rode holding neck strap all the time!) The lady who backed him rode him several times and he was generally OK, so it did seem like it was my riding that was a problem, until he very nearly dumped the trainer. I then took him back for a much more extensive veterinary work up which resulted in him having to be immediately retired from ridden work and then PTS at age 6.

This is probably not helpful if you are convinced that the pony doesn't have any pain related issue despite not having a full vet work up, but whilst it was a horrific experience at the time I do think I have learned a lot from it. In future you may have a pony which cannot be returned and are forced to consider all options.

That is sad, what were the findings from the vet that resulted in being PtS?

 

[nutjob]

That is sad, what were the findings from the vet that resulted in being PtS?

ESPA / DSLD, both hind suspensory ligaments completely disintegrated / disrupted. Eventually the fetlocks dropped and he was in chronic pain.

 

[criso]

Sadly, I think he has had a few homes this last year for this reason. It’s a shame that no one has been able to invest time in him as he’s be a fab pony otherwise. Everyone I speak to has an issue with their kids pony, I wonder if you just have to choose your vice!

How old is the pony? If he has had a problem being passed around in the last year, what happened before?

Growing up having ponies, on a yard which was mainly kids with ponies and in riding clubs/pony club, I don't remember having to choose your vice. Ponies could be naughty but it was more the level of choosing to do their own thing from time to time, trundling back to the gate, not jumping if the rider wasn't sufficiently determined, stopping for a snack etc. Rearing or bucking to get a rider off was unusual.

The main choice seemed to be forward going but then occasional brake problems (not bolting that's a different thing entirely) or more laid back but more difficult to get going.

 

[maya2008]

Everyone I speak to has an issue with their kids pony, I wonder if you just have to choose your vice!

I don’t have any issues with my ponies - we have three in work and one in the early stages of being backed. They are all young so my expectations of them take that into account, but all three will look after my daughter (good seat/hands but slightly wafty with the instructions). The two Welsh As step up nicely for my son (one is the perfect goody two shoes of the pony world, the other needs more help to understand new things and can lack confidence until he’s got it right) and the little cob is currently discussing cantering in a school with him - she says the corners are dangerous, and he says he’ll help her learn how to navigate them if she will just give it a go! They’ve made good progress though and we’ve only been going in a school once a week since January started.

My children are very aware that if the pony is being ‘naughty’ that it’s their fault, not the pony’s. It’s not the pony’s fault if they don’t understand because the child didn’t give clear instructions, or because they haven’t had something new explained to them clearly enough. It’s not the pony’s fault if he/she refuses at a jump because the child lost their balance and pulled on their mouth over the one before, or if they run out because the child had wafty reins, or stop because the child was staring at the poles and never asked them to actually go over it, either. Or for a million other reasons.

Now, when something goes wrong, my kids ask me, ‘Why did that happen?’ So then I can explain what THEY did to cause the problem, and they can fix it going forward. That builds the child’s confidence because they realise they are actually in control of the outcome, and can do something to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Helps the pony too, as the child’s riding improves!

Examples
- last week with little 3yo spook, ‘Why did that happen?’ Because you’re not the most confidence giving rider in the world and she was on her own, so she felt she had to protect both of you and get you away from the danger. ‘How can we fix it?’ Shorter reins (not washing lines!) and stay closer to the other pony. Problem solved. Later in the week, son’s Welsh A was eyeing up the blue barrels in the spooky corner of the school. She remembered to shorten her reins and chatted to him to give him confidence. It worked.
- bucked off mini cob. ‘Why did that happen?’ I told you not to wear a long flappy coat on a young pony, she thought she was being attacked by a flying monster! ‘How do we fix it?’ Do up the coat.
- pony drifting outwards in circles ‘Why?’ If you don’t hold your outside rein he will fall through that shoulder. ‘Ohhh’
And so on.

 

[Starzaan]

I don’t have any issues with my ponies - we have three in work and one in the early stages of being backed. They are all young so my expectations of them take that into account, but all three will look after my daughter (good seat/hands but slightly wafty with the instructions). The two Welsh As step up nicely for my son (one is the perfect goody two shoes of the pony world, the other needs more help to understand new things and can lack confidence until he’s got it right) and the little cob is currently discussing cantering in a school with him - she says the corners are dangerous, and he says he’ll help her learn how to navigate them if she will just give it a go! They’ve made good progress though and we’ve only been going in a school once a week since January started.

My children are very aware that if the pony is being ‘naughty’ that it’s their fault, not the pony’s. It’s not the pony’s fault if they don’t understand because the child didn’t give clear instructions, or because they haven’t had something new explained to them clearly enough. It’s not the pony’s fault if he/she refuses at a jump because the child lost their balance and pulled on their mouth over the one before, or if they run out because the child had wafty reins, or stop because the child was staring at the poles and never asked them to actually go over it, either. Or for a million other reasons.

Now, when something goes wrong, my kids ask me, ‘Why did that happen?’ So then I can explain what THEY did to cause the problem, and they can fix it going forward. That builds the child’s confidence because they realise they are actually in control of the outcome, and can do something to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Helps the pony too, as the child’s riding improves!

Examples
- last week with little 3yo spook, ‘Why did that happen?’ Because you’re not the most confidence giving rider in the world and she was on her own, so she felt she had to protect both of you and get you away from the danger. ‘How can we fix it?’ Shorter reins (not washing lines!) and stay closer to the other pony. Problem solved. Later in the week, son’s Welsh A was eyeing up the blue barrels in the spooky corner of the school. She remembered to shorten her reins and chatted to him to give him confidence. It worked.
- bucked off mini cob. ‘Why did that happen?’ I told you not to wear a long flappy coat on a young pony, she thought she was being attacked by a flying monster! ‘How do we fix it?’ Do up the coat.
- pony drifting outwards in circles ‘Why?’ If you don’t hold your outside rein he will fall through that shoulder. ‘Ohhh’
And so on.

This was a joy to read. One of the things I struggled with the most when I was teaching full time was children and parents not understanding that falls, problems, issues with direction etc are almost ALWAYS rider error. It is still my biggest pet peeve. I used to really struggle with parents saying "that pony isn't fit for a riding school, it doesn't listen". Actually, she is listening, but your child isn't actually telling her anything constructive, so she's decided to yank the reins out of her hands and go and stand at X until your child gives her a clear instruction.

Ponies can learn behaviour, but, as YCBM said up thread, why have they learnt this behaviour? Pain is the first thing to rule out. Once you absolutely know there is no physical cause, then you know it is a learnt behaviour. A lot of horses (not just ponies) will "play up" when they know they can get away with it due to an inexperienced rider. One of the horses I used to teach with would park himself on the centre line and not move for some very novice riders, and yet we took him out and won a Chase Me Charlie at 1m50 with him a few months after buying him. If you know which buttons to press, you'll get the answers.

 

[splashgirl45]

I don’t have any issues with my ponies - we have three in work and one in the early stages of being backed. They are all young so my expectations of them take that into account, but all three will look after my daughter (good seat/hands but slightly wafty with the instructions). The two Welsh As step up nicely for my son (one is the perfect goody two shoes of the pony world, the other needs more help to understand new things and can lack confidence until he’s got it right) and the little cob is currently discussing cantering in a school with him - she says the corners are dangerous, and he says he’ll help her learn how to navigate them if she will just give it a go! They’ve made good progress though and we’ve only been going in a school once a week since January started.

My children are very aware that if the pony is being ‘naughty’ that it’s their fault, not the pony’s. It’s not the pony’s fault if they don’t understand because the child didn’t give clear instructions, or because they haven’t had something new explained to them clearly enough. It’s not the pony’s fault if he/she refuses at a jump because the child lost their balance and pulled on their mouth over the one before, or if they run out because the child had wafty reins, or stop because the child was staring at the poles and never asked them to actually go over it, either. Or for a million other reasons.

Now, when something goes wrong, my kids ask me, ‘Why did that happen?’ So then I can explain what THEY did to cause the problem, and they can fix it going forward. That builds the child’s confidence because they realise they are actually in control of the outcome, and can do something to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Helps the pony too, as the child’s riding improves!

Examples
- last week with little 3yo spook, ‘Why did that happen?’ Because you’re not the most confidence giving rider in the world and she was on her own, so she felt she had to protect both of you and get you away from the danger. ‘How can we fix it?’ Shorter reins (not washing lines!) and stay closer to the other pony. Problem solved. Later in the week, son’s Welsh A was eyeing up the blue barrels in the spooky corner of the school. She remembered to shorten her reins and chatted to him to give him confidence. It worked.
- bucked off mini cob. ‘Why did that happen?’ I told you not to wear a long flappy coat on a young pony, she thought she was being attacked by a flying monster! ‘How do we fix it?’ Do up the coat.
- pony drifting outwards in circles ‘Why?’ If you don’t hold your outside rein he will fall through that shoulder. ‘Ohhh’
And so on.

love this post, I wish more kid/ people would think like that before blaming the ponies/horses. Brilliant way to teach your children

 

[splashgirl45]

This was a joy to read. One of the things I struggled with the most when I was teaching full time was children and parents not understanding that falls, problems, issues with direction etc are almost ALWAYS rider error. It is still my biggest pet peeve. I used to really struggle with parents saying "that pony isn't fit for a riding school, it doesn't listen". Actually, she is listening, but your child isn't actually telling her anything constructive, so she's decided to yank the reins out of her hands and go and stand at X until your child gives her a clear instruction.

Ponies can learn behaviour, but, as YCBM said up thread, why have they learnt this behaviour? Pain is the first thing to rule out. Once you absolutely know there is no physical cause, then you know it is a learnt behaviour. A lot of horses (not just ponies) will "play up" when they know they can get away with it due to an inexperienced rider. One of the horses I used to teach with would park himself on the centre line and not move for some very novice riders, and yet we took him out and won a Chase Me Charlie at 1m50 with him a few months after buying him. If you know which buttons to press, you'll get the answers.

I used to take the rides at a riding school when I was young and slim, I would start out on one pony, one of the others wouldn’t behave , so I swapped and a bit further on the same happened with this pony. The RS ponies knew which riders they could lag behind with or eat the grass or the trees , this hardly ever happened with the horses and novice riders. Ponies are very clever and suss out the kids immediately

 

[BBP]

The pony is going back, but I’m really interested in if this sort of behaviour can be resolved or if he is stuck with it. To not be curious is to not learn. I would say it is learnt as it only happens with nervous riders and he is fine with a strong one. I’m not doing any tests beyond the usual as he’s not staying but based on what I know and what I’ve been told it’s behaviour and I find that interesting. People could be a little less judgy on here, it’s not very encouraging to post for information if that’s what comes back.
move been trying lots of different ponies and they all seem to have some quirk, the general consensus seems to be that ponies are naughty and learn tricks… I wonder if they can be sorted or are they stuck? Helpful replies only please

Apologies, my post was not meant to sound judgemental, and I understand what you were meaning a bit better from your second post. I think I just get upset seeing ponies being passed from place to place because they are termed ‘cheeky/naughty ponies’ and aren’t given the respect as horses when they do voice that there is something wrong. Don’t get me wrong, I have done the same. My own pony is termed The Bonkers Black Pony (BBP) from very early on, because he is absolutely nuts. But the longer I have had him (14 years I think) the more I have realised that every one of his crazy behaviours has a root cause other than being naughty/cheeky. I just didn’t know enough to know that.
A more experienced rider can help, but partly because that more experienced rider might be better able to see where there is a fundamental problem. Again I’m not saying you should keep the pony, or judging you for returning (although I am judging whatever dealer sold you a known bucker as a first ridden), I was just trying to say don’t close your eyes to it being a pain problem (which is how your initial post read to me.

All the best and good luck, to you and the pony.