Can someone please explain this??

[Anastasia]

Normally I would not put a post on a public forum like this, but this is something that has "got me" tonight...

OK so I have stallions graded with the Scottish Sports Horse,and they have gone and changed the guidelines, as follows (taken from the website tonight):

[ QUOTE ]
Studbook Guidelines Revised
The Studbook Guidelines have been revised and are now available for download on the Guidelines page.

SSH stallion categories have been amended as follows:

Previously Licensed Stallions are now referred to as L1 status.

Previously Registered Stallions are now referred to as L2 Stautus

Previously Listed Stallions are now referred to as L3 Status.

A new Predicate for L3 stallions that have shown outstanding performance results in competition, siring premium foals and have produced exceptional progeny with proven compeition results will be awarded "Elite"

[/ QUOTE ]


So firstly as a stallion owner this is the first I have heard of the changes, so as members we are being informed of the changes via the website...

Secondly there is no explanation for a stallion owner to the reasons for the change in names?

Thirdly is it only me who thinks that it is Irish that the lowest grade of stallion, i.e. "Listed" or "L3" are the only grade of stallion that are then eligible to be given an extra award of "Elite" as stated above??? Why has the same award not being allowed to the other stallion grades??

Maybe I am missing something REALLY obvious here, that someone else can clarify for me......but its almost like the "L3" stallions are then being promoted more than the others??

And more sadly they have lowered the marks to achieve 2nd or 3rd Premiums, when they were actually raised two years ago to try and raise the standards! So it makes these Premiums <u>much</u> less than the standards of the BEF Futurity now..

Previously:
[ QUOTE ]

1ST PREMIUM – MARKS ARE 70+ ON AVERAGE
2ND PREMIUM – MARKS ARE BETWEEN 65-69 ON AVERAGE
3RD PREMIUM – MARKS ARE UP TO 64 ON AVERAGE


[/ QUOTE ]

Taken From the New Guidelines:

[ QUOTE ]

1ST PREMIUM – MARKS ARE 70+ ON AVERAGE
2ND PREMIUM – MARKS ARE BETWEEN 60-69 ON AVERAGE
3RD PREMIUM – MARKS BELOW 59 ON AVERAGE
Below 50 no premium awarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be shot down from high for posting this tonight, but I feel really strongly about this!

The SSH improve on the stallions coming forward by asking for x-rays, but then give higher awards to only one stallion category, and then lower the marks for youngstock to achieve the Premiums......how does that educate owners on what they hope to achieve??

I am "Confused.com"

 

[Showjumper007]

I attended the SSH grading last year and was totally miffed at the way he whole event was carried out.
As it is called the "Scottish Sports Horse Stallon Grading" I was surprised at the amount of snobbery that was involved with young foreign stallions being purchased for obscene amounts of money and brought forward to this event when the home bred youngsters were hardly even looked at.
Surely if these foreign colts were good in their own country they would not have been sold to Scotland in the first place.

 

[volatis]

I read what you posted from their website and thought it must be a mistake, and that L1 stallions should be the ones who could be called Elite , or that I was getting confussed between a licensed and listed stallion.
Its got to be an error I would say

 

[flyingcolors]

I see from the foals scores that a premium foal in the SSH books needs very low points to achieve a premium. In Germany no foal below 7.5 can ever achieve ANY premium!

And making a stallion that missed the license / approval then an Elite status does not sound very right to me. I am sure that is a typo. Listed status stallions equal to the lowest book in Germany and offspring by such would only qualify for certificate of pedigree.

 

[Anastasia]

Volatis, "Licensed" was the highest grade you could get an intial grading, so that has been renamed as "L1". "Listed" is the lowest of the grades, now known as "L3", with "Registered" in the middle, now known as "L2".

The top is "Approved", but you cannot get that until the stallion has established itself.

What I cannot understand is why they have changed the names, and the benefits in doing this? If I tell a mare owner that my stallion is "L1" then they are going to look even more confused than before!

I wish you were right Volatis regarding the "Elite" status, but it clearly says in the new guidelines that this is only available to "L3" (previously "Listed") stallions.....which to me makes no sense at all, and will only cause great confusion to mare owners when looking at any stallions within the SSH system.


Can I also just say that I used the phrase in my initial posting "is it me that thinks this is Irish". Can I just say that before anyone gets upset, this was not used to cause any offense to anyone who is Irish, as that was never the content it was used in. I had only used it as part of a phrase within a whole post. So my apologies if it is read in any other context.

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
I see from the foals scores that a premium foal in the SSH books needs very low points to achieve a premium. In Germany no foal below 7.5 can ever achieve ANY premium!

And making a stallion that missed the license / approval then an Elite status does not sound very right to me. I am sure that is a typo. Listed status stallions equal to the lowest book in Germany and offspring by such would only qualify for certificate of pedigree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for sharing the above, how does your own studbook work?

 

[scotsmare]

I can see your point - it makes no sense to change things the way they have and reducing the points required to obtain premiums is just encouraging lower quality stock. Unfortunately the SSH is becoming a bit of a joke - it doesn't encourage you to keep registering with them at all.

Also, to make these changes with no consultation / notification to it's members is a bit much. Ultimately how on earth would you have found out if you hadn't looked on their website??

I don't think you'll be the only one unhappy with this

 

[flyingcolors]

@ AnaTINSELtasia (oh my had to copy and paste that name!)

The German books give only licensed status at a minimum of 7.0 some books only at a 7.5 score. Then the stallion can breed ONE year and has to do its stallion test. If stallion test not done the stallion is no longer licensed and gets down into the stallion book 2 where all non approved stallions end and that means female offspring of this stallion can only ever enter prebooks and male offspring cannot be graded. But I must also say that book 2 thing does not exist in all Associations. The big Associations just do not want to deal with book 2 stallions as that would undermine the quality of horse breeding.

If the stallion has done its stallion performance test with a minimum score of 80 (90 for Trakehners) he is lifetime approved. With some Associations a stallion of book 1 (book 2 does not need to do anything) can get suspense from the stallion performance test if he got injured and cannot compete any longer but his foals have been proven higher than 7.5 scores at foal show.

A foal premium will not be given to any foal of lower score than 7.5 in average.

Holstein, Hannover and Oldenburg, maybe also Westfalen, do not have a book 2 as far as I know. The Trakehners do.

I its very frustrating for those breeders and stallion owners that go the high route of paying out a lot of money to get their stallions licensed and then put through the hard and expensive stallion performance test or competition route when others just use their non approved stallion of book 2 or 3 and have no expenses and make the same money or even more as they can have much lower stud fees (they do not have to recover the high costs of an approved stallion!) due to mare owners not caring for the quality of a stallion but just looking for cheap stud fees, or the color/pattern of the horse.

Its that way of thinking that has the horse selling market crashed here as there are too many foals and offspring out there by non approved stallions that needs to sell for cheap and it has killed the market.

----------------------

In case of the SSH though I would not think the L1, L2 or L3 status makes a difference, in fact it is more approached to the German system I would think as the L1 is the book 1 (licensed) and the L2 equivalent to book 2 and the L3 equivalent to book 3.

The only thing that would be hilarious would be the Elite status given to an L3 stallion, which would normally not even be allowed to breed. That would probably make the whole world laugh, but as I said that can only be a mistake in typing.

 

[Rollin]

I am 100% behind you. We should support British Breeding and not be influenced by the dicatates of fashion and snobbery. I hope you have seen the posts by Baydale and Chris_J.

 

[firm]

@flyingcolours
Hi FC could you explain then how Elite award works with the studbooks you use e.g. Milky Way's Elite status with Europee Stamboek.

 

[Anastasia]

You just gotta love the SSH......they have just updated the news again on the website this morning.....LOL

:

[ QUOTE ]
A new Predicate for L3 stallions (that do not fullfil the pedigree requirements for approved status) that have shown outstanding performance results in competition, siring premium foals and have produced exceptional progeny with proven competition results will be awarded "Elite"

[/ QUOTE ]

So again we have another change to these Guidelines, and a new change added just this morning stating - [ QUOTE ]
(that do not fullfil the pedigree requirements for approved status)

[/ QUOTE ]

Am sorry but if they have to keep on correcting themselves what is this telling members about how things are being done etc.....{sigh}...

Scotsmare I agree on the Premium front. The whole reason the points were increased was to "raise the bar" for breeders because the Premiums had remained unchanged for years. Then last year more people got 3rd Premiums, and this year they changed it back again to make it easier to achieve the 2nd Premiums again......

The powers at be within the SSH will needless be unhappy at me posting this (especially when I have always tried to promote them)....and as I say I would not normally air such things on a forum, but this is something else..

 

[flyingcolors]

Elite awards in other countries are given based on stallion quality (scores at licensing) , stallion performance test, foal quality, its several things that must apply but it is only available to stallion book 1, means real licensed/approved stallions NEVER ever a book 2 stallion would get an Elite status, only stallions that have been licensed and approved can ever get Elite status.

A non approved stallion can have some good offspring if the mares taken are of good quality but that does not make a second class stallion any better, its the mare then that brings the quality with itself and every foal of a normal or mediocre mare can be a draw back to the stallion "quality". Therefore a stallion by itself needs to first merrit the licensing by its own scores. Never tell me a non approved stallion can better the breeding. That's what the licensing is made for otherwise we can just forget about breeding for quality.

I would not understand why SSH would give Elite status to stallions that are in any lower book than licensed. If that is truly the case its just plain crazy!

@ Firm
about the status of Milky Way, I dont bother about the Europees Stamboek as I am no member with them anymore. But just for the record it was based on his scores at approval.

 

[Rollin]

'Never tell me a non-approved stallion......'

A French breeder of British natives who is a well known breed judge would disagree with you. I know we are talking about ponies and not sport horses. He purchased th second highest price stallion at the annual and famous breed sale. This stallion is in the French Stud Book as 'not recommended' because he refuses to put it before a French panel.

He claims that France is changing British native breeds because the focus is on jumping ability and the French like horses who are lean and leggy. This results in a gradual change in breed conformation and characteristics. If I had a mare of this particular breed I would use his stallion in preference to an 'approved stallion'

A French breeder of sport horses told me the French don't care about a pedigree all that matters is how it can jump. They don't measure bone which for me is fairly important.

A German breed 'expert' was fairly deprecatory about the French 'so called Trakener'.

 

[DAHH]

[ QUOTE ]
the French like horses who are lean and leggy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you seen a typical selle francais....lean and leggy they are not (Just don't tell my Sf mares I said that!!)

[ QUOTE ]
A French breeder of sport horses told me the French don't care about a pedigree all that matters is how it can jump.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not far wrong there! All I would add is that it also matters who owns the sire and who owns the horse.....

 

[Rollin]

Just to clarify I am refering to the changes being made to our natives. This was the opinion of a Frenchman who has been breeding this particular pony for 20 years.

I don't know what a 'typical Selle Francais' looks like. Most of my friends when they visit me ask to be taken to see the Cadre Noir. Their comment after visiting the stables is always 'What is a Selle Francais? they are all different'. I am talking about horses which range from Anglo-Arab to Cob types in looks and confirmation.

 

[ColourFan]

By the sounds of it the SSH are LOWERING THEIR STANDARDS because the horses being registered with them do not meet the necessary requirements for approvals.

In my opinion ANY stallion receiving less than a minimum of 65 points/% SHOULD NOT BE LISTED/LICENCED OR APPROVED for stud duty !!! The stud is either worthy of being a representative of his breed or he isn't and this should be reflected in the points he receives. Come on people ... a 'listed' stallion being promoted as 'Elite' !!

And the 'Elite' status ... even to an outsider it is obvious that this has something to do with internal politics and personal gain and again obivously a number of stallion owners in the governing organisation have managed to put this ridiculous idea thru so as to be able to have an 'extra' promotional tool to advertise their stallions!!

Again in my opinion the 'Elite' status should only be given to stallions and mares that are fully licenced/approved and have proven their worth in the sport by their own individual results or by the outstanding results of the competing offspring. Please note the use of the word ... competing! ... for how can a foal, either premium or not, be an indication of a stallion's worth in producing <u>SPORT</u> horses????

 

[flyingcolors]

Colour Fan:
"In my opinion ANY stallion receiving less than a minimum of 65 points/%"

I hope you mean 70 not just 65 as minimum

 

[ColourFan]

Personnal I would prefer to have the minimum set at 75 and only have 'approved' stallions, ie no other classes!

The 65 was in reference to the minimum for listed stallions, but here again why use a stallion that has been judged to be inferior and can't even get the necessary points to become approved!?

 

[cruiseline]

This new rule directly affects me and my stallion

My black stallion is graded SSH and due to an incomplete pedigree at grading (on dam side) and even though he came 3rd and any of his foals would have a three generation pedigree, he could only be given a listed status. I have been told that the visiting graders wanted to give him an Elite grade (his points were high enough I believe), but due to rules at the time were unable to.

Since his grading he has competed successfully in BSJA competitions (before I purchased him) and in the 4 years that I have had him, he has gone from prelim level dressage to working Grand Prix with a less than professional rider. He has FEI International points and will be travelling to Europe this summer to compete small tour for the United Arab Emirates.

So from a completely selfish point of view, it suits me

 

[Amelia]

Cruiseline you make an interesting point with regards this subject.

IMHO I think the discontent lies in the word 'Elite' ..... using cruiselines case as an example (I hope you don’t mind cruiseline), her stallion achieved ' HIGHER ' points at the SSH Grading and has Achieved more since being presented than some of the other stallions presented/graded with a full 3 gen pedigree.

Stallions such as Cruiselines, I feel do deserve to be acknowledged for thier contribution to sport .... and since the SSH Rules can not (and should not) be broken an award to recognize this seems fair; - however - I think a better name could have been used - along maybe the 'Sports' theme.....

 

[flyingcolors]

Then why dont you just give this stallion a full license if he has proven to be as good. The EU rules say that a stallion with two generations of pedigree can sire foals so in case a stallion proofs to be a good one, then why not give him full license. But making Elites out of the lowest book is not a good idea, but giving a full license due to quality that makes sense.

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
This new rule directly affects me and my stallion

My black stallion is graded SSH and due to an incomplete pedigree at grading (on dam side) and even though he came 3rd and any of his foals would have a three generation pedigree, he could only be given a listed status. I have been told that the visiting graders wanted to give him an Elite grade (his points were high enough I believe), but due to rules at the time were unable to.

Since his grading he has competed successfully in BSJA competitions (before I purchased him) and in the 4 years that I have had him, he has gone from prelim level dressage to working Grand Prix with a less than professional rider. He has FEI International points and will be travelling to Europe this summer to compete small tour for the United Arab Emirates.

So from a completely selfish point of view, it suits me

[/ QUOTE ]

Cruiseline, I fully see your point of view with Tartan Special, and you have to be congratulated in what you have achieved with your boy.

However...........not taking away what stallions like your boy have achieved in sport, the word "Elite" to me for a stallion means a world class breeding stallion.

For instance with the Trakehners (and Volatis can correct me if I am wrong here), the likes of Caprimond and Gribaldi did not get their "Elite" status for becoming International Dressage Horses.........but Sires of International Dressage Horses.

If an L3 stallion does well in Sport only, then they should get the "Sport Award", just like the mares do, or if they do well only as a breeding sire then give them the "Model" award just as the mares get for producing good youngstock.

But ELITE should only be for a true breeding sire, who's youngstock are out proving themselves in higher level sport..........it should not be used for a stallion who has barely been used for breeding, thus not even proved himself as a sire.

I mean at the end of the day if an "L3" stallion is given the award of "Elite" is the owner still going to advertise him as an "L3" (which is just obsurd anyway...

...as mare owners wont have any idea what on earth that means!!) or are they going to say he is an "Elite SSH Stallion".............which says something different...and will mare owners then be educated enough to know what this means, or will they think that "Elite" is an even higher award than "Approved".....because I think that is what will happen.


So you will have:

Approved
L1
L2
L3
Elite


The above is just too ludicrous for words and as others have stated is just plain crazy. Mare owners will have to be mensa members before they work out which stallions are which within the Studbook!!!

[ QUOTE ]
I have been told that the visiting graders wanted to give him an Elite grade (his points were high enough I believe), but due to rules at the time were unable to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cruiseline, was the above said recently? The only reason I ask is because I was at your lads grading (my husband thought he was a very nice stallion..

) and I remember them saying at the time if he had a complete pedigree they would have made him "Licensed"

, but they never mentioned "Elite" at the time of his grading.

There was only one stallion that year that got "Licensed" and that was Braeface Stud's Ahorn stallion "Schiller" (who was in a league of his own that day), with "Out of the Blue" by Mr Blue receiving "Registered" status.

I dont want to take anything away from any stallion (or other horse for that matter) within the SSH that have gone on and got the results in top level competition because they deserve to be recognised for their achievements ......however the way in which the powers that be at the SSH have done it is nothing short of a disaster...

I have received a variety of messages regarding this and the points are all the same, that the above is just nonsense (and never mind the fact that Premiums for youngstock have been lowered), and that the fear is that sadly they will start to be known for having lower quality horses...........and that should be a worry for any member....

 

[cruiseline]

[ QUOTE ]
Cruiseline, I fully see your point of view with Tartan Special, and you have to be congratulated in what you have achieved with your boy.

However...........not taking away what stallions like your boy have achieved in sport, the word "Elite" to me for a stallion means a world class breeding stallion.

For instance with the Trakehners (and Volatis can correct me if I am wrong here), the likes of Caprimond and Gribaldi did not get their "Elite" status for becoming International Dressage Horses.........but Sires of International Dressage Horses.

If an L3 stallion does well in Sport only, then they should get the "Sport Award", just like the mares do, or if they do well only as a breeding sire then give them the "Model" award just as the mares get for producing good youngstock.

But ELITE should only be for a true breeding sire, who's youngstock are out proving themselves in higher level sport..........it should not be used for a stallion who has barely been used for breeding, thus not even proved himself as a sire.

I mean at the end of the day if an "L3" stallion is given the award of "Elite" is the owner still going to advertise him as an "L3" (which is just obsurd anyway... ...as mare owners wont have any idea what on earth that means!!) or are they going to say he is an "Elite SSH Stallion".............which says something different...and will mare owners then be educated enough to know what this means, or will they think that "Elite" is an even higher award than "Approved".....because I think that is what will happen.


So you will have:

Approved
L1
L2
L3
Elite


The above is just too ludicrous for words and as others have stated is just plain crazy. Mare owners will have to be mensa members before they work out which stallions are which within the Studbook!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the compliment, but it is his attitude and trainability that has made my job the easy part. All credit really should go to him

I understand what you are saying and agree with you 100%. The sports awards would sound a better way of doing things. The word 'Elite' does give the impression, the best of the best. I would be happy as a stallion owner for my boy to be recognized for this competition achievements, rather than from one day at a grading (to be honest). So perhaps they could have an 'Elite’ Sports Award instead. Following the KWPN mare grading system would seem a better route to take, if they feel changes have to be made.


[ QUOTE ]
I have been told that the visiting graders wanted to give him an Elite grade (his points were high enough I believe), but due to rules at the time were unable to.



Cruiseline, was the above said recently? The only reason I ask is because I was at your lads grading (my husband thought he was a very nice stallion) and I remember them saying at the time if he had a complete pedigree they would have made him "Licensed", but they never mentioned "Elite" at the time of his grading.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was told by his previous owner and also read it in an article about the grading, which I found on the internet.

However, as I was not there, I really am only speaking from a third party point of view

So if I have been incorrect I apologise

I do think though that a stallion who has made it to top level in sport, should be recognised for their achievements in any stud book, regardless of what their pedigree says or how they did on one day of grading. We see so many stallions who are graded at the top (based on one days work) that never make it as a competitive horse. Surely actually doing the job month after month, year after year, is more important than looking like you can do it for one day

Just a thought

 

[Amelia]

This is interesting and having read, re-read (and then read again &lt;lol&gt;

) the SSH Studbook Guidelines.

Section below taken from the SSH Studbook Guidelines:

<u>Elite Stallions:</u> Awarded to L3 stallions that do not full fill the pedigree requirements of Approved status but have shown exceptional performance results and produced a high standard of progeny that have proved themselves successful in sport as follows.

<u>Own Performance</u> –

• Grade A Show jumper,
• Prix St George Dressage Horse,
• Advanced Eventer or
• Gold Series 100 mile Endurance


<u>Breeding Performance</u> –

Consistently sired 1st and 2nd premium progeny

&amp;

Progeny Performance – Proven ability of progeny at affiliated level. Evidence of which must be provided.


NB Official competition results by a recognised governing body must be produced for any stallion seeking promotion, e.g. BSJA, BD, BE, FEI etc



My understanding is:

For a L3 Stallion to be awarded an Elite he must:-

1/. The stallion himself MUST be competing at a high level..

Grade A Show jumper/Prix St George Dressage Horse/Advanced Eventer or Gold Series 100 mile Endurance Horse...

He must ALSO (to be eligible!)

Have consistently sired 1st/2nd Premium progeny WHO are ALSO competing at a high level

So it would appear, as I understand it, that the Elite award would only be available AND <u> achievable </u> by a very few stallions AND the performance record of thier progeny (doesn’t state how many - that I can see) and I do think it is important to recognise those individual stallions and allow them to prove themselves.


Has anyone contacted the SSH to ask for a definite answer?

 

[flyingcolors]

no matter how there could be other titles to be used to not confuse honest and serious breeders. An Elite title should only be given to stallions that are approved and have high marks as it is usully done. Means licensed ---&gt; approved ---&gt; Elite

 

[Anastasia]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone contacted the SSH to ask for a definite answer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Amelia you have to ask yourself the question as to "why should we need to ask"? As members and especially to those people who own the stallions in the SSH, surely it would have been up to the SSH to inform their members of the changes within the Guidelines, especially changing names of the actual grades. Not everyone has access to the Internet or even wish to have access to the Internet. If I had not gone onto the website I would have been none the wiser, as has been pointed out above. Surely it is just common decency that members of any breed association be informed of significant changes in breeding policies....it does not take much to put out a newsletter to members and put a 2nd class stamp on it!

As members of a breed association you think that communication with those running it should be key!!??

Cruiseline, I agree with the fact that competition can be a key factor to a breeding stallion, and that one day does not necessarily reflect that a stallion will have the qualities to be excellent in the long term. Especially if they are presented very poorly at a grading.

Another point is that we also have to remember is that at times stallions can be lower in the grades due to very poor conformation (as has been the case with qutie a few), and ultimately would you wish to breed from a stallion like that, even if they are International level??

IMHO ultimately a true breeding stallion is the one whose offspring go on to do well in sport, because that then shows that they are able to pass on certain qualities. A lot of top breeding stallions were pulled from sport before they reached International/Grand Prix level due to their popularity as sires, and the results of their offspring in sport....

At the end of the day I do agree that stallions should be awarded for their success in sport and/or as a breeding horse. I just do not agree with the use of the word "Elite" for such cases on its own, because of the reasons I have stated above.....i think it is misleading for mare owners, and can be interpreted as such.

Lastly I am not just talking about the "Elite Award", but it would also be nice to know the reasons behind the change in the stallion grades (as this has not been explained...we have just been "told" it is happening).....and how the SSH think that lowering the marks for Premiums will benefit the long term breeding plans for the Studbook......as surely they should be looking to promote better breeding if they wish to be a Studbook for the future.

 

[lacampbell]

Cruiseline: The SSH do have (or at least did have!) predicates for all equines which excel in competition with SPORT, CROWN and something else which I cannot remember off of the top of my head. I would check thoroughly whether your Tartan "Special" is eligible for any.

Getting back to the original post - I am perplexed.....
Why was this done...? Lots of whys actually and there is certainly going to be confusion seeing as there is the ELITE predicate for mares which is tough to achieve and rarely given..... I am pressuming that the new studbook guidelines are already in the post to current members.

 

[Amelia]

AnaTINSELtasia: Honey one thing I have learnt this year (especially) is that the one ‘certain’ thing in life is ‘un-certainty’ LOL…… and as friends you know what I refer to

I am not a member of the SSH this year, but I would rather phone and request information/explainations / guildence than worry about the new Stallion Guidelines …..

I am not involved with the SSH, but surely the decisions made by the SSH are made as a ‘body/as a whole ’ &amp; not by any one individual ……..and although I am happy to add my opinion to the post (along with others) at the end of the day – it is just that …. ‘my opinion’.

I can understand why you want to get to the root of the changes as a member &amp; stallion owner graded with the SSH … a situation I am not in (yet

), but you are probably MORE enlightened than the rest of us ‘regular Joe’s’ as you have been on the SSH Committee…… would it not be easier just to contact the SSH (I’m NOT saying that this ‘IS’ the way it should have happened) and find out what is what

)

Having now spent too much time reading up on the SSH Studbook Guidelines &lt;lol&gt;

I have also noted the section on Deceased Or Injured Stallions (page 20) ………. Will this effect your chap (bless him x NOT saying that it should - but you will be able to compare any changes in this rule. Or is it a Rule Change ??? ....... I havent studies the SSH Studbook Guildlines before ) AnaTINSELtasia ??

DECEASED OR INJURED STALLIONS
Unfortunately stallions may die or be injured and provisions have been put in place for their
progression through the studbook, as they may show EXCEPTIONAL offspring who are proving
themselves at gradings and in competition.

For stallions to be promoted up a level their foals, 3 year old and 7 year old+ offspring would all be
assessed through gradings, breeding mares/stallions and sport. If they achieve the minimum
requirements as set out below then the stallions would then have proved themselves through their
progeny, and thus be allowed to move up a level posthumously.


1) Stallions Moving From L1 to APPROVED:*
* Must present minimum of 12 progeny at Gradings and progeny must achieve an average score of
68 or over.
*Of the 12 a minimum of 7 must attain the 1st Premium Status.
*Must present a minimum of three Ster Mares or progeny having attained the score for Ster but
awarded a first premium based on the lack of pedigree.
*An L1/L2 graded SSH stallion may be included in the stallions tally.
*Must have a minimum of three offspring who have achieved the following levels in sport:
Dressage (Medium at 65%), Show jumping (1.30m Double Clear), Eventing (Intermediate)
or endurance (75mile Gold Series)

2) Stallions Moving From L2 to L1:
* Must present minimum of 12 progeny at Gradings and progeny must achieve an average score of
68 or over.
*Of the 12 a minimum of 5 must attain the 1st Premium Status.
*Must present two Ster Mares or progeny having attained the score for Ster but awarded a first
premium based on the lack of pedigree.
*Must have a minimum of two offspring who have achieved the following levels in sport:
Dressage (Medium at 65%), Show jumping (1.30m Double Clear), Eventing (Intermediate) or
Endurance (75mile Gold Series)
* An L1/L2 graded SSH stallion may be included in the stallions tally.

3) Stallions Moving From L3 to L2:
* Must present minimum of 12 progeny at Gradings and progeny must achieve an average score of
68 or over.
*Of the 12 a minimum of 3 must attain the 1st Premium Status.
*Must present one Ster Mare or progeny having attained the score for Ster but awarded a first
premium based on the lack of pedigree.
*Must have a minimum of one offspring who have achieved the following levels in sport:
Dressage (Medium at 65%), Show jumping (1.30m Double Clear), Eventing (Intermediate) or
Endurance (75mile Gold Series)
*An L1/L2 graded SSH stallion may be included in the stallions tally.

N.B If any stallion regardless of status full fills the criteria of section 1) the stallion will be granted Approved Status.
SSH Revised Guidelines – Nov 08 20

I would totaly agree with you - that the true value or a performance sire is what he; as a a sire passes onto his progeny, especialy as there are a great many stallions out there who are very well produced &amp; yet pass little or nothing on to thier progency by way of natural ability.

Sorry if I have missed anything out - but my original reply got lost in cyber space ...

 

[Anastasia]

Amelia thank you for your lengthy reply....

I requested information just a few weeks ago on other "areas" from the SSH and have still to receive a reply.....so you will have to forgive me if I sound a little "sceptical" at receiving anything regarding what my OP is about...

Regarding the Guidelines I am aware of all changes over the last few years, having been a part of some of the revisions, including the introduction of x-rays as part of the stallion grading...

The section on "Deceased/Injured" stallions was added two years ago. Barring the following, which has just recently been added.....

[ QUOTE ]
N.B If any stallion regardless of status full fills the criteria of section 1) the stallion will be granted Approved Status.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the time we lost Geneve we asked the SSH about what happened with his chances of Approved status after he was deceased. There was no part in the Guidelines at that time, so a section was added.

This has proved very worthwhile because since the loss of Geneve, two other graded stallions have died and others been injured, so this gives the owners the chance of still having their stallions progress up the levels through the results of their offspring.

Although if you note........for a deceased stallion to move up it is much much harder than for any other stallion to move up!! They have to have a minimum of three progeny make higher level sport.......whereby only the stallion himself (if alive) need only make this level. So its not something that is highly achievable for many.

 

[Amelia]

[ QUOTE ]
Amelia thank you for your lengthy reply....

<font color="blue">I'm trying to keep up with you ! LOL

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[ QUOTE ]
Regarding the Guidelines I am aware of all changes over the last few years, having been a part of some of the revisions, including the introduction of x-rays as part of the stallion grading...

[ QUOTE ]


<font color="blue">Hells Bells - x-rays !! LOL.... dont remind me !!! rofl

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