Can the farmer shoot my dog?

[sbloom]

Nothing about the dog but as pheasants are often in people's gardens etc, it does seem a bit different? We'd all hook up a dog going into a field containing four legged livestock but pheasants, and other game birds, can be anywhere, along footpaths, in shelterbelts.... Seems a slightly tricky one.

 

[SAujla]

If its his field then there is no question he's right. If it's public but his field is nearby it might become a problem if your dog enters his field. I'd find somewhere different if possible to let your dog off lead

 

[CorvusCorax]

Nothing about the dog but as pheasants are often in people's gardens etc, it does seem a bit different? We'd all hook up a dog going into a field containing four legged livestock but pheasants, and other game birds, can be anywhere, along footpaths, in shelterbelts.... Seems a slightly tricky one.

I get a lot of cats in my garden during certain months of the year so I do take precautions for everyone's safety/reputation.

I also used to walk where sheep were fly-grazed on forestry land. Would it have been my/their fault? No. Would my dogs have got a bad reputation and probably developed a liking for fast-moving woolly projectiles? Absolutely, long line on.

 

[SAujla]

I get a lot of cats in my garden during certain months of the year so I do take precautions for everyone's safety/reputation.

Brave cats!

 

[Supernova89]

I get a lot of cats in my garden during certain months of the year so I do take precautions for everyone's safety/reputation.

My dog hates cats. My neighbour has two that are constantly wondering into the garden. It’s a real fear of mine that she’ll injure one. I have tried chilli power, pretend cat figurines, water gun, you name it but the little buggers are persistent. Sorry to go off topic. Any tips on keeping them away would be welcome lol.

 

[CorvusCorax]

My dog hates cats. My neighbour has two that are constantly wondering into the garden. It’s a real fear of mine that she’ll injure one. I have tried chilli power, pretend cat figurines, water gun, you name it but the little buggers are persistent. Sorry to go off topic. Any tips on keeping them away would be welcome lol.

I mostly just keep the dog with high prey drive on a 10m flexi, safer all round.

 

[Supernova89]

I mostly just keep the dog with high prey drive on a 10m flexi, safer all round.

Even in your garden. Fair play.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yep, pain in the arse!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Sadly? ??‍

I actually think it is a bit sad that even obedient, well trained dogs has to be on leads to not risk that a farmer will shoot their dog while walking on heel by their side, as Supernova89 said their dog was doing. How would that not be seen as endangering the human, the farmer could just as well end up shooting the human, as their dog?

I also think it's a bit sad, as in the case Scotsbadboy was quoting, that Papaver Follis sometimes have to put her own Not interested in sheep-Spaniel on a leash in certain parts of her own land, because she's worried the neighbouring sheep farmer maybe would shoot the Spaniel, if the sheep farmer saw the dog playing around in some water which is on the border between the two properties.
Regardless that the Spaniel might still be on PF's own land, and in either case, isn't bothering the farmer's sheep. I get that sheep is part of some farmers livelihood, but I still think it's a bit sad with taring all dogs with the same brush.

 

[ihatework]

Doesn’t sound like the farmer has threatened to shoot your dog, he just asked you politely to pop on the lead because there were pheasant out. Which is fair enough, but I’m not even convinced it’s required if you have an ultra obedient dog (lucky you if you do!).

I think your neighbour is just scaremongering and interfering.

Believe it or not, most farmers are animal lovers and wouldn’t want to be shooting dogs. It would be a last resort for the overwhelming majority. They can only shoot if worrying livestock, which you say yours wasn’t. I have no idea actually if game birds count as livestock.

 

[teddypops]

Even in your garden. Fair play.

I have to keep my terrier on a lead in the garden as she will be off after anything that ventures near. We have a footpath that runs along the length of our fence. It’s a pain but I’d rather be safe than sorry.

 

[cauda equina]

It seems odd that pheasants are livestock, yet their owners can't be held responsible for any damage they may cause eg breaking car grilles or digging up my veg patch

 

[sbloom]

It seems odd that pheasants are livestock, yet their owners can't be held responsible for any damage they may cause eg breaking car grilles or digging up my veg patch

And add into the fact that most are disposed of (hopefully for pet feed?) and not eaten, and people pay an obscene amount to kill them (I speak as an avowed carnivore and do eat pheasant)...an rather unpleasant business, though I understand that farmers need other sources of income.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I do think my Mr Next Door farmer would be reasonably forgiving of spaniel bouncing around in the water near the sheep but I also don't want to risk it or risk him worrying. The sheep were out in the middle of the field today though so spaniel had a good paddle.

Most farmers are pretty reluctant to actually shoot a dog in my experience.

 

[Keith_Beef]

It seems odd that pheasants are livestock, yet their owners can't be held responsible for any damage they may cause eg breaking car grilles or digging up my veg patch

On the other hand, I believe that you are legally entitled to bag any pheasant that you find digging up your veg patch, or even just sitting doing nothing in your garden: the owner of the land can legally catch and kill any pheasant present on that land.

At least that's what we were taught in school, when we read Danny the Champion of the World.

 

[marmalade76]

It seems odd that pheasants are livestock, yet their owners can't be held responsible for any damage they may cause eg breaking car grilles or digging up my veg patch

Game birds (including Guinea fowl) were exempt from the poultry lockdown so are probably exempt from other things too.

 

[planete]

I think if a farmer shot a dog who was proven not to be actually worrying livestock, he could be prosecuted and lose his gun licence. Firearms offences are taken very seriously. The shooting must be reported to the police within 48 hours and it is best to kill the dog outright or a prosecution for causing unnecessary suffering could follow. It is of course best to keep the peace with your neighbouring farmers and anybody over whose land you are walking, and letting your dog worry livestock is indefensible but if somebody shoots your dog without due cause, the law will be on your side.

 

[Cloball]

I do think if the dog is at heel the farmer is highly unlikely to shoot it given the proximity to the owner, there is a good shot and there is recklessly endangering life.

 

[marmalade76]

Doesn’t sound like the farmer has threatened to shoot your dog, he just asked you politely to pop on the lead because there were pheasant out. Which is fair enough, but I’m not even convinced it’s required if you have an ultra obedient dog (lucky you if you do!).

The law states that dogs should be "under control" presumably because not all on lead dogs are under control and not all off lead dogs are out of control but when you're on private land, even on a PROW, the landowner is totally within his rights to ask that dogs be on leads. PROW are there for people to get from A to B, not for dogs to have a hoolie.

 

[marmalade76]

This is something that happened recently to a different person

https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/myei7l

, honestly I'd just keep the dog on a lead anywhere near farm land, it's not worth the risk.

I suspect that fair few fibs have been told there.

 

[JackFrost]

Many dog owners think their dog is 'under control' if after a long time calling and shaking packets of doggie treats, it eventually returns.
I would hardly consider my horse under control if I asked it to do something then had to wait 30 seconds for it to finish its arsing about before it obeyed.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I saw similar post on MN and wonder if poster doesnt like the answers and is hoping a dog/horse forum might be more amenable

Farmers are meant to notify the police if they shoot a dog for worrying stock. If the story about the dog and sheep being on public land is true the owner, should notify the police and sue the farmer for the cost of anew pup. Sheep are legally not allowed to roam on public land, although it isn't always easy to tell who owns what. We have a 'common' locally, with footpaths and tracks across it, which is actually owned by a nearby house.

 

[Dizzy socks]

I don't think pheasants do count as livestock when considering whether farmers can shoot dogs for worrying them. So legally, my understanding is that if he did shoot your dog, he would be in very dubious territory.

However it's obviously good manners not to allow it, not that it sounds like you were. Off the lead is not the same as worrying. I think you should do as he's asked though, for politiness and future relations.

Here's the Act (summary), emphasis mine.

"Under criminal law if a dog worries livestock on agricultural land then the owner and anyone else under whose control the dog is at the time will be guilty of an offence under this Act. To come under the act the dog must have been attacking livestock or chasing it in such a way that it could reasonably be expected to cause injury or suffering to the livestock or, in the case of females, cause abortion or loss of or diminution of their produce. It is also an offence, introduced by later legislation, for the dog to be at large, ie not on a lead or otherwise under close control, in a field of sheep. There are limited exceptions to this last provision, for example sheep dogs and police dogs.

No offence is committed, however, if at the time of the worrying the livestock were trespassing, the dog belonged to the owner of the land on which the trespassing livestock were and the person in charge of the dog did not cause the dog to attack the livestock. The definition of "livestock" under this act is quite wide and includes cattle, sheep, goats, swine, horses and poultry. Poultry, however, does not include game birds such as pheasants and grouse. Conviction under this act would lead to a fine.

Civil liability arises from the Animals Act 1971. Under this act anyone who is the keeper of a dog which causes damage by killing or injuring livestock will be liable for the damage caused. The keeper of a dog for the purposes of the act is the owner or the person in whose possession the dog is or the head of a household where the owner is a member of the household under the age of sixteen."

 

[marmalade76]

I don't think pheasants do count as livestock when considering whether farmers can shoot dogs for worrying them. So legally, my understanding is that if he did shoot your dog, he would be in very dubious territory.

However it's obviously good manners not to allow it, not that it sounds like you were. Off the lead is not the same as worrying. I think you should do as he's asked though, for politiness and future relations.

Here's the Act, emphasis mine.

"Under criminal law if a dog worries livestock on agricultural land then the owner and anyone else under whose control the dog is at the time will be guilty of an offence under this Act. To come under the act the dog must have been attacking livestock or chasing it in such a way that it could reasonably be expected to cause injury or suffering to the livestock or, in the case of females, cause abortion or loss of or diminution of their produce. It is also an offence, introduced by later legislation, for the dog to be at large, ie not on a lead or otherwise under close control, in a field of sheep. There are limited exceptions to this last provision, for example sheep dogs and police dogs.

No offence is committed, however, if at the time of the worrying the livestock were trespassing, the dog belonged to the owner of the land on which the trespassing livestock were and the person in charge of the dog did not cause the dog to attack the livestock. The definition of "livestock" under this act is quite wide and includes cattle, sheep, goats, swine, horses and poultry. Poultry, however, does not include game birds such as pheasants and grouse. Conviction under this act would lead to a fine.

Civil liability arises from the Animals Act 1971. Under this act anyone who is the keeper of a dog which causes damage by killing or injuring livestock will be liable for the damage caused. The keeper of a dog for the purposes of the act is the owner or the person in whose possession the dog is or the head of a household where the owner is a member of the household under the age of sixteen."

Interesting that horses are classed as livestock in this situation, something to remember as dog attacks on horses seem to be on the up.

 

[blackcob]

Goodness me, it didn't need 25 pages of a Mumsnet flaming or a second thread (hoping for a more sympathetic audience?) to understand that the farmer cannot shoot your dog if you simply ensure it is attached to you by a lead. HTH.

 

[Rowreach]

That’s good to know. I thought they were wild. I don’t think my dog would chase one as we get them in the garden but wouldn’t want to risk it. Just as it wouldn’t want to risk it with sheep, ect so on a lead she shall stay. I’m new to the countryside.

I spend quite a bit of my work time explaining to dog owners that they need to keep their dogs on leads all year round to avoid disturbing ground nesting birds in a conservation area. It matters not if a bird or animal is wild or reared, private or public land - keeping dogs on leads means they can't chase or disturb anything.

 

[Moobli]

yes pheasants, partridges, grouse etc are all stock.

Only captive pheasants are considered livestock (ie poults in a pen) but as soon as they’re released they’re wild birds. Grouse are wild birds too.

 

[Moobli]

I honestly didn’t know that pheasants were livestock! Whoops ?

Only when in a captive state, not when released.

 

[Moobli]

Sounds like your neighbour is just scaremongering. The farmer asked you to put your dog on a lead as there were pheasants in the field, so fair enough. However your dog was walking to heel ie. under control so actually you were complying with the law as it stands in Scotland. Personally I wouldn’t want to aggravate the farmer so would do as asked but no, a farmer could not shoot your dog under the circumstances you describe.

 

[Moobli]

The law states that dogs should be "under control" presumably because not all on lead dogs are under control and not all off lead dogs are out of control but when you're on private land, even on a PROW, the landowner is totally within his rights to ask that dogs be on leads. PROW are there for people to get from A to B, not for dogs to have a hoolie.

Absolutely but the OP is in Scotland where we have a right to responsible access and not on a PROW.