can this be right

The lady with the field next to mine has two kids and seven (soon to be eight, she's just bought another) horses and ponies. She works in a hotel bar in a small village. I do wonder how she affords it sometimes (my budget is tight with just the one horse and no kids!) but ultimately it's none of my business.
 
Oh dear, for some reason people on here have got upset over my post. May be its because I gave a brief outline of the situation and not a full indepth, penny by penny account of my life that some have jumped to incorrect conclusions?

If its makes some of you feel any better, I have a full time job and two part time jobs, all are on an employed basis, full tax paid and above board - no cash in hand, no hidden income, no fiddling and everything declared - any happier yet?

Before husband left I was working 3 or 4 part time jobs that fitted around the children - I have always worked, I have never in my life claimed benefits.... until he left and I was eligible for WFTC - just that, no council tax help or anything else.

I very, very rarely get riled or upset but whoever suggested that I dreaded my son turning 18 because my tax credits would drop.... well, that has cut me to the quick :mad: I don't think you have any idea how much that comment has hurt me :(

I've worked bloody hard all my life for everything I have, an unexpected change in life circumstances was not planned for - if you think I should be sacked, or forever unemployable because of that then so be it.

But just think on this - if you are so perfect beware because one day you might find yourself on your uppers.
 
If you're all that fed up with it do something about it. There are fraud hotlines & I know through my own line of work that there are many prosecutions. Sure there wld be more if people spoke up & reported to someone who can do something about it not the HHO forum!
 
Ravenwood said:
Oh dear, for some reason people on here have got upset over my post. May be its because I gave a brief outline of the situation and not a full indepth, penny by penny account of my life that some have jumped to incorrect conclusions?

If its makes some of you feel any better, I have a full time job and two part time jobs, all are on an employed basis, full tax paid and above board - no cash in hand, no hidden income, no fiddling and everything declared - any happier yet?

Before husband left I was working 3 or 4 part time jobs that fitted around the children - I have always worked, I have never in my life claimed benefits.... until he left and I was eligible for WFTC - just that, no council tax help or anything else.

I very, very rarely get riled or upset but whoever suggested that I dreaded my son turning 18 because my tax credits would drop.... well, that has cut me to the quick :mad: I don't think you have any idea how much that comment has hurt me :(

I've worked bloody hard all my life for everything I have, an unexpected change in life circumstances was not planned for - if you think I should be sacked, or forever unemployable because of that then so be it.

But just think on this - if you are so perfect beware because one day you might find yourself on your uppers.
Click to expand...

But they are perfect!
 
Some people have indeed been rather judgemental on here Ravenwood ............ sometimes it appears from misunderstanding or not reading posts properly ........... and your explanations do indeed demonstrate both that remarks can be taken out of context and that assumptions can be made according to the preconceptions of the reader. !


The problem is that the system ( with all its faults ) does exist in order to support people who, for whatever reason, need support in order to live in a manner that society deems "good" and or enable them to participate / contribute in some way to that society. Sadly however as with any system there are those who will abuse it while other abide by the rules ....... and those who play the system screw it up for the others because those on the "outside" ( or even the providers of the system) only see the scroungers and set the sytem up to make it harder and harder.......... and the only ones who really lose out are the ones that DO abide by the rules !!!!!


I have NO problem paying my taxes to contribute towards with those who genuinely need that support ....... even if part of that goes towards a horse ( though might get a bit iffy with multiples :eek:) ... like others I would have issue with those who choose not to work and still have horses.


.... if someone starts out with a horse a becomes unemployed for a while, or becomes disabled, but is prepared to scrimp and do without other things to keep the horse then why the issue.. I know that when I was very ill for a while it was Taz that kept me going ..... literally !



as to DLA claimants that someone mentioned...

Sometimes a horse can actually be of benefit to someone with disabilities. ....

My friend has permanent pain, nerve damage and other medical issues. Physio was agony for her... till she started hippotherapy on Taz ....... the gentle rocking and passive exercise of her riding at walk eased her pain. She has been able to cut out some painkillers and reduce others (plus other medications). ... saving a little taxpayers money :D :D :D

Her stepson ( often appears in my pics on here) sits up straighter in his chair (school physio remarked on it) since starting to work with Taz.

Mentally both benefit hugely from equine therapy :D :D :D

They have B on loan ......according to anyone not knowing the situation assumptions could be made that how come they can have a horse when they are both disabled. They do because I do most of the physical care of B and they do what they can when they can.

I do not ask about finances but it is my understanding that disability allowance is calculated to not only take account of the very basics but to make a little allowances for the things that "normal" people take for granted eg have an occasional holiday and to be able to have transport (normal cars cant accomodate wheelchairs for example and some wheelchair users cannot sit in car seats).
 
So from what many say on here, anyone on a medium to low income shouldn't have horses?

Single parents shouldn't have horses?
Their kids shouldn't have a pony?

Anyone in council or affordable housing shouldn't have a horse?

There won't be many horses in the uk left will there :D

How very judgemental.
 
luckyoldme said:
Hey pearl is this so ? Is everyone on wftc?
From what i see on here and at home most of them are dreading their youngest becoming 18.
I can t claim it because i have no dependants.
My ideal employee would be someone in my age group with a good work ethic.. or in interview speak someone more mature and experienced. :-)
My pay rate will be slightly above the local going rate so candidates can take it or leave it. Either way I wont be employing anyone on wftc. I know many businesses locally and further affield who operate the same policy. We have to work long hours to keep our businesses going.. why should we employ folk who want to work 16 hours and then go home to play with their ponies... all funded by the government?
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When my business was busier in the pre-computerised age I employed 2 ladies, one 16 hours+ - she claimed WTF. The other worked 10 hours and her family were in recipient of benefits as her husband was disabled (although he worked) For the former it was a great job that she could fit in around her daughter and meant she could do the school run - she also had family nearby so if child was ill they looked after rather than her take time off. She loved the job as it meant she now had evenings and weekends with her family - had previously worked at a sports centre in the evenings and weekends. She was a fantastic hard working and very loyal employee whom I sadly lost to cancer. The latter came to work as an escape from the hum drum of looking after her OH. Always reliable and very hard working I couldn't have wished for better employees, but, in order to survive on the meagre pay (it was over 1.5 x min wage but not enough hours), they had to claim benefits. Another friend of mine brings up 2 childrent, works 2 jobs and still jas to claim WTF in order to keep up the mortgage on the former family home so the kids can continue at their schools where they are well settled and stable (otherwise she'd have to move to a cheaper home in a cheaper area). She is very hard working and extremely highly thought of in her workplaces. I'd suggest revise your opinion of WTF workers before you alienate the hardest workers at interview!

I suppose it's not fair for the OP that we will appear to be in the 'neither working but have 2 ponies for daughter, live in a posh (albeit the smallest) house in the poshest road, have a 4x4 (admitedly it is shiny as new but actually is a 'V' reg) and a similarly shiny looking Merc (7 years old and was very cheap from ebay but you didn't hear that)'. Most folk assume I don't work as I am always available to run errands, babysit, go shopping for old ladies/help out when needed (in reality I work for myself and fit in around the various demands folk make on my time), and OH has just been made redundant!
In truth, we have both worked very hard since leaving school, rarely having holidays (1 in past 6 years - which actually cost nothing as we got bumped off the flight and got far more paid back than it cost us), almost never going out - the one evening OH went out in the past 6 months was the night of daughter's PC prize giving and even then he was on call because he swapped weeks as somone else at work wanted to swap! As a result yes we live in a nice place almost entirely paid for - we over paid for years - and yes our daughter has 2 ponies, but we did it ourselves, no hand outs no WTC no inheritances. (but we are not ashamed of our secondhand furniture - I cannot appreciate why a friend is now on her 3rd over £1K each sofas yet we still have a (secondhand) suite we got 'as new' for £250 14 years ago!)

What niggles me is the 'want it handed on a plate' generation who assume all this has come easily to us and it's not fair they don't get it. At times I've held down 3-4 jobs a week and I have scrimped and saved in order to get better houses. I've also been prepared to turn my hand at anything rather than pay out someone to do it. (my tiling is legendary!) I was staggered in the bike shop today when a kid of about 14 came in to have the brakes and chain adjusted and handed over £5. In my day we did it ourselves, it really is not difficult! It's saving those £5 a time that make the difference.
I know several of the 'want it all' generation who wouldn't dream of taking a job cleaning the loos in a pub (because it starts at 6am which is far too early and is dirty work) before heading off to their day job.
 
the problem with anecdotal & half known/understood reports of families on benefits "living the life of riley" is that these soemtimes have the status of urban [ or shoud that be rural:)] myths
i was made redundant form a job with less than 2 yrs service whilst heavily pregant, i had no choice but to go on benefits to support myself & my child - the amount of money paid covered some heating costs [ given i had a new born baby in the house, water rates, basic food costs & the interest on my mortgage - there was NO way i could have afforded any of the luixury items lsted in some of the posts here, so i do wonder if there is an element of daily Mail thinking here:)
WFTC alowed me to go back to work as soon as my daughter was weaned because quite simply, they paid a contributionn toward the full-time childcare i needed [ not everone has helpful family members to provide this] - my take home pay was aprox £1,200 - my nursery fees would have been just over £500 -without that help i would have had to stay on benefiits until my child went to full-time school
 
Ravenwood said:
When my husband left two years ago, I immediately went out and got myself a full time job and with that I was able to claim Working Families Tax Credit as I had two children under the age of 18.

TBH even I was shocked at how much I got each month, along with that the standard child benefit and I was able to put all that into a seperate account and live off my wages (mostly but I am very frugal).

So to an outsider, I have a house, a large 4x4, horses, three large dogs etc (obviously the status quo from when I was married!) and was claiming benefits.

However, now one child is over 18 so my WFTC & CB has dropped dramatically and I am starting to struggle - somehow I have to try and be even more frugal! Actually I can see we will have to put this house on the market next year :(
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I am sorry you feel hurt by general comments that weren t directed at you.
Im also sorry that you are affronted that one or two of us but mainly me are shocked by this post.
The thread was about people on benefits owning horses and you replied with the above post in support of these people.
You say you are shocked by how much money you get .. enough to support your family horses big dogs and a 4x4 and put some by for a rainy day. Unfortunatley though you are now starting to struggle as your eldest is 18 and your benefits have been cut.
If your shocked by how much money you get why cant I be shocked too?
 
My mom is now on benefits after divorcing from her husband she used to have a horse of her own but sold it keeping mine as struggles with money but still realises that what I do makes me happy and keeps me out of trouble. (She has been looking for a job for over a year now.)
You shouldn't judge people from what you have heard, until you have heard there story of it.
 
luckyoldme said:
I am sorry you feel hurt by general comments that weren t directed at you.
Im also sorry that you are affronted that one or two of us but mainly me are shocked by this post.
The thread was about people on benefits owning horses and you replied with the above post in support of these people.
You say you are shocked by how much money you get .. enough to support your family horses big dogs and a 4x4 and put some by for a rainy day. Unfortunatley though you are now starting to struggle as your eldest is 18 and your benefits have been cut.
If your shocked by how much money you get why cant I be shocked too?
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I hardly slept last night as I was so upset about your repsonses directed to me and wish to God I never posted in the first place but having read this I can see now that either you are unable to read or unable to disemminate information correctly.

At no point was my original post in support of "these" people - it was a factual outline of a situation. I probably pay as much tax as you do.

I did not say that the tax credits supported my lifestyle - what I did say was that my full time job and my two part time jobs support my family but that I was eligible to claim tax credits alongside that.

In my second post I pointed out that I have always worked hard and live frugally, the house is practically all but paid off, I have no credit cards, loans or debts, I am not overdrawn. This was not achieved in the last 18 months.

It is correct when my son turned 18 (6 months ago) we are struggling so either I find a fourth job or sell the house and go into rented - I am sure this must make you cockahoop

Thats it - no more comments or justifications from me in this thread. I can't believe I have allowed myself to get so upset over a bloody forum and sanctimonious posters.

Enjoy your perfect life Luckoldme and I hope 2012 brings you as much success as previous years.
 
Ravenwood said:
I hardly slept last night as I was so upset about your repsonses directed to me
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Hi Ravenwood, anything to do with money is going to be an emotive subject and if you mention benefits or tax credits there will be those who vent their wrath at what they see as being an unfair system.

There are plenty of people who need benefits and credits just to live, however, there are also those, and most people have an example which they'll hold up as the norm, who 'take advantage' whether fairly or unfairly, of the 'system'.

There is NOTHING wrong with claiming what you are due and what is right, I think people have a poor understanding of what is available but most of all get angered by those who are cheating the system or have NO intentions of ever working, which is NOT you.

Two things need to happen;

1/. Where it is apparent people are cheating, notify the authorities, if not then you can't moan about how wrong it is.

2/. If people are claiming benefits or tax credits legally and fairly accept that that is the law and if you feel that benefits or credits is too high, take it up with your MP.

Sorry you were upset.
 
luckyoldme said:
FionaM12 said:
Working Families Tax Credit is fantastic. As soon as I was well enough, I got a low paid part-time job and that along with WFTC gave me masses more than I got on benefit. But yes it was a struggle when my child reached 18 and it stopped. :eek:[/QUOTE
I hope to employ my first employee next year. I will be seeking advice before doing so because quite frankly i would rather employ someone who isnt getting masses of cash or fantastic working family tax credit. Some weeks in a small business you just can t take a wage.. imagine struggling to pay someones wages when they were getting masses of cash and fantastic wftc... and then trotting off home after their alotted 16 hours?
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luckyoldme said:
VoR said:
The other claimant on here is now having to work because her youngest is 18. I want an employee that wants to work not someone who needs to work a few hours to get masses of money off the government.
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luckyoldme said:
why should we employ folk who want to work 16 hours and then go home to play with their ponies... all funded by the government?
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Some of this is aimed at me, I realise.

It's quite a lot of years since I was on WFTC. My husband had left us leaving huge debts behind him. I was extremely ill, often in hospital and it was that combined with having a daughter to care for which limited the number of hours I could work.

WFTC was fantastic for me as it got me back into work and out of dire poverty.

On benefit, we were going to lose our home. WFTC allowed me to work and start to sort out my desperate situation, none of which was my fault. It was still very hard, but it was possible.

I did not have a horse in those days. Thank goodness for the kind employer who took me on, despite my health, despite me being a single mum, and did not resent that my low wage was topped up by WFTC to make life possible.

I work now and it's nothing to do with my child being 18. She became that quite some years ago! I was talking about a time when my life was very hard.

I'm not so ill now. I work long hours, and can afford (just!) to have a horse. I claim no benefits and no longer have dependants. I do not resent people working alongside me who get WFTC or anything else, if they're entitled and have dependants. I'd have to be the kind of mean-spirited bitter person you must be to think like that.
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luckyoldme said:
No that wasnt the issue... show me where i said i would not employ women in case they had children. Its my business and whoever i work with will have to be someone who i get on with. Im sorry but thats not someone who is there for a few hours so that the can claim wftc. Its my money and my business I want to put my trust in someone who wants to work. Im willing to put the person through their test but i really want someone commited. Of all the examples displayed at home and on here the job is allways just a stepping stone to the wftc. I want someone who cares about providing a service to my hard working customers.
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so you have had FOUR examples of people on WTC that you didn't like and that means that the hundreds of thousands of people who must be claiming them are all lazy and work-shy? i can't help but think that the really lazy and workshy won't need WTC because they won't be WORKING in the first place...i think WTC are brilliant if they encourage people back into work. and no i don't blame people for choosing to stay off work/work less than 16 hours if it means they can get more money to support their family that way- its the system that is sometimes flawed- not the people using it. (obviously there is a clear difference between people working within the system and those cheating the system and lying etc etc- for these people REPORT THEM! they give the genuinely needy a bad name!)
Also, no offence, but if you are offering a job with slightly more than minimum wage then you might well attract people who aren't as dedicated as you are. after all- its YOUR business- there is a clear vested interest for you to work your socks off to make it succeed- someone on a flat wage has no vested interest/incentive to work extra-hard/ go the extra mile. fortunately there are a lot of people who DO work harder than they need to/are paid to- simply because they are that way inclined. i know i work far harder than i am 'contracturally obliged' to....but i think to make the assumption that anyone on WTC must automatically fall into the camp of not being hardworking is an unfair judgement to make. often single parents are more hardworking because they have to work so hard at home....
 
my friend his wife left him, he pays £400 a month in CSA, she gets her rent paid for, council tax, child tax credit, child benefit. Has more money every month than the average working person. She also has a new car, two mobile phones on contract and never worked in her life.

In my opinion CSA should be taken into account when calculating benefits. Its not!

I dont have anything against those that are medically unfit for work, or those that cant find work getting benefits. Working tax credit helps loads of people as well.

What I do object to is the amount of money this single mother gets paid to sit on her backside whilst the kids are at school and we are at work having to go to work to keep living day to day.

I have been a single parent and I have to say it was hard but I had no help and kept a full time job because you have to and have pride in working and self respect.
 
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Ravenwood said:
Thats it - no more comments or justifications from me in this thread. I can't believe I have allowed myself to get so upset over a bloody forum and sanctimonious posters.

Enjoy your perfect life Luckoldme and I hope 2012 brings you as much success as previous years.
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When the system is as flawed as it is, people have the right to scream about it. When OH was made redundant, my horses were on the market to sell, two went almost instantly, the house was put on the market and we lived on loans, credit cards and my income to support us. Eventually they said to him 'here is £68 a week to survive'. For a man in his late 50's who had worked full-time since he was 15 and never claimed a penny in his life, it was a *****ing insult, yet a friend down the road on 16 hours a week, has had two holidays abroad each year, her 3 kids get all the mod-cons going, AND her mortgage paid (told us no chance) you think people won't get upset?
 
Kaylum said:
.

In my opinion CSA should be taken into account when calculating benefits. Its not!
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When did that happen then?!! :confused: Any CSA I got when on benefit, was knocked off my benefits. So unless it's changed, your friend might be paying CSA but his ex isn't getting to keep it.

Working Families Tax Credit allowed you to keep your CSA payments, but as stated before, it's a tax credit, not a benefit.
 
DragonSleigh-Bells said:
When the system is as flawed as it is, people have the right to scream about it. When OH was made redundant, my horses were on the market to sell, two went almost instantly, the house was put on the market and we lived on loans, credit cards and my income to support us. Eventually they said to him 'here is £68 a week to survive'. For a man in his late 50's who had worked full-time since he was 15 and never claimed a penny in his life, it was a *****ing insult, yet a friend down the road on 16 hours a week, has had two holidays abroad each year, her 3 kids get all the mod-cons going, AND her mortgage paid (told us no chance) you think people won't get upset?
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And this is the problem. People who have worked and paid into the system find the system fails them when they need help. Yet others find out how to "work" the system and screw it for as much as possible. People who have lived frugally and saved are also penalised.
A few years ago now I learned of a family who lived next to my best friend. This came from one of the nieces as she told it to my friend one day.They "worked " the system. They did this. Uncle M had a small business,manufacturing clothes. He employees family. Niece A works there,she is married and has 2 children. After about 18 months he lays niece A off but takes on niece B. Niece A now looks after her own children at home and niece B's 4 children also. Niece A claims job seekers,the kids get free school meals and all sorts of other benefits. after about a year Uncle M lays off niece B and takes niece A back, get the picture? they all look after reach others kids, they all screw the welfare state for as much as possible. There are more family members involved ,around 20 all together. Its costing the taxpayer [us] a fortune. It is ,apparently legal.
 
FionaM12 said:
When did that happen then?!! :confused: Any CSA I got when on benefit, was knocked off my benefits. So unless it's changed, your friend might be paying CSA but his ex isn't getting to keep it.

Working Families Tax Credit allowed you to keep your CSA payments, but as stated before, it's a tax credit, not a benefit.
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She is I am afraid. He pays it direct into her bank account. Its what the CSA says he has to pay.

This rule changed in October 2008.

http://www.cmoptions.org/en/maintenance/prepare.asp
 
I agree with Dragonslayer... The system is TOTALLY flawed.

I and most of the people in my professional circle of friends are in the same boat, and feeling increasingly fed up with the way we are treated, especially when we see what others get for doing relatively NOTHING. I have had to wait until the age of 33 to be in a position where my husband and I have the finances to bring a baby into the world. Whether or not we will be able to afford to have another child I do not know.
I went to university for 3 years and he went for 4. We both amassed student debts which we had to pay off. Once my Uni debt was paid I managed to buy a tiny house in the early 00s before the property boom, and made enough money from the sale of that which, combined with husbands savings, allowed us to pay a deposit on a family sized home in a nice area where we relocated to for his job.
We are now faced, in 2 months time, with struggling on my paltry maternity pay to afford the bills/mortgage so we can keep a roof over our heads. Once baby is born I HAVE to go to work otherwise we will lose our home. We will them have to try to save as much as we can so we can afford to have another baby. The ONLY way I can keep my horse is by part-loaning him out and selling personal possessions to pay his upkeep.

I am not entitled to a PENNY from the state, even though I am going back to work part-time, because my husband earns just a smidgen over £40k. No tax credits, nothing other than basic £20 a week family allowance. Never mind the £1700 monthly bills we have to pay, husband earns too much. If we had to live on his wages alone we wouldn't even be able to afford to run a car let alone have a horse!

HOW is this fair????? If I had knocked out a couple of sprogs at 17 I would have had my 3 bedroom family home paid for, been able to go to Uni for free, been able to live comfortably without having to struggle AND at 33 I would be looking forward to the rest of my life doing what I want to do. Kids would get their university education for free as well. I wouldn't have bothered getting married, OH could register himself as living at his mates house and spend most of his time at mine anyway. I would have a nice little part time job too, 16 hours a week would be just fantastic...

Instead I am looking forward to working til I am 67 before I get my pension, plus if I want my children to have a university education I will have to save up for that. That's the reward you get for doing things 'properly' - working hard, paying tax, NI and pension and being honest and not milking the system!

My sister has the right idea, she and her partner, both graduates too, moved to Australia where they are paid comparatively fairly for the jobs they do and strangely enough she doesn't mention people milking the system, they don't pay much tax and so I assume their social security system is different to ours...there is little crime there either...
 
luckyoldme said:
i was thinking more along the lines of having to pay maternity pay and a temporary worker to cover the leave... and double the training costs related to the job. It makes perfect sense really for them to reduce the risk by employing a more 'experienced male'. Im not saying its right and as a female trucker I came up against it all the time... Almost impossible to prove though.
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So you are a female trucker who wants to discriminate against female truckers? If that is the case then shame on you! There is absolutely no way you can ask someone questions about their personal life so it would be impossible to tell if someone is claiming WFTC as someone previously stated men or women can claim this.

However, I don't believe this thread was about WFTC anyway it is about people defrauding the BENEFITS system - what are you going to do descriminate about people who are self employed too? I damn well know I pay a lot more tax as a PAYE individual!

Personally, if you know someone who is defrauding the system then you should grass them up - no questions!

As for people who have savings - good on them - that is unless they are claiming benefits - then it is FRAUD. You cannot claim benefits if you have savings over a certainly amount - think this currently stands at around £15K??
 
Firstly, the last 'quote' shown above from me was NOT me.

Next, if you feel the system is wrong fair enough, get mad, but DO something, raise it with your MP, or, as I've said, if you see someone committing fraud report them.

Tax Credits are not for the 'work-shy' as the true work shy won't work at all so won't get the credits! There are a great many people in the current economic environment who can only find part time work, WTC supports them and is to make it MORE viable for them to work than stay at home!
 
My yard has a few of them and yes I am jealous! I'm down there at 6.45am in the morning and don't get back to the yard until 6pm. By then I'm generally too tired to ride after a long hard day at work. And all I hear from a certain few of them is how lovely their rides have been today. They stroll up the yard at 10am to do their horses and then spend the day enjoying them. I work so hard to afford my horse and my tiny flat. I have one horse. One family in particular has 3!! I think the system is outrageous!!!
 
I've not had time to read the whole thread yet so forgive me if I'm repeating what anyone else is.

No one likes a lazy, work-shy, benefit sponge. No one likes people who fake illness to claim benefits. However surely keeping horses is a better option than spending it all on drugs and alcohol!
 
cattysmith said:
I've not had time to read the whole thread yet so forgive me if I'm repeating what anyone else is.

No one likes a lazy, work-shy, benefit sponge. No one likes people who fake illness to claim benefits. However surely keeping horses is a better option than spending it all on drugs and alcohol!
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Thats true but should they get enough benefits to be able to afford horses in the first place. I think thats what the thread is about when working people who would like these luxuries cant afford them.
 
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