Can trimming cause laminitis? Help/thoughts please.

[KEK]

Rising 5 Connie. Never had any issues at all with his soundness up until he was trimmed, 5 weeks ago. Farrier told me, afterwards, that he cut a fair bit off.
Immediately post trimming he was footy and sore on all 4 feet. Then that improved but still seemed bothered by LH (had the most trimmed off it). Cumulated in him becoming 4/5 lame in LF.
Took him to the vet and it blocked to the hoof. He had pulses on both front feet, vet said laminitis.
He is overweight, owner failure. Vet said trim could have contributed to lami- unsure how? But timing wise fits.
He has been confined to a soft pen since, on 1.5% of bodyweight meadow hay. I've optimised his diet to ensure he is getting all the recommended vitamins and mins at the correct levels. And hes had 3d of bute. No xrays yet. Today he has no pulses and is sound at a trot, apparently (he started trotting round his pen).
Does this sound like lami, or a bad/too short trim that needs time to grow out? Either way he is having time off and a strict diet. TIA!

 

[canteron]

My horse have been foot sore in the past if too much is trimmed off.
I don't think it so much causes laminitis but does bring it out, my guess is that the horse is less reluctant to move if its feet are sore this exacerbates the problem - but would love to know more from a real expert.
Hate laminitis, its a constant concern.

 

[ester]

Yup, particularly if there are other factors/the horse is nearing lami anyway it can tip the balance to full blown inflammatory response.

 

[Birker2020]

He is overweight, owner failure. Vet said trim could have contributed to lami- unsure how? But timing wise fits.
!

It can cause mechanical lameness if too much is taken off.

 

[KEK]

Yup, particularly if there are other factors/the horse is nearing lami anyway it can tip the balance to full blown inflammatory response.

Thanks Ester. So even if the feet are correctly aligned post trim (which apparently they are) this can still occur?
Is it normal with lami to go sound on bute in 3d?

 

[paddy555]

is your vet referring to mechanical laminitis. This link is from Rossdales Laminitis_CHN_May19.pdf (point 4 refers)

4. Mechanical: Too much length of toe, over-zealous foot trimming or improper shoeing, fast or prolonged work on hard surfaces; supporting limb laminitis due to foot abscess, fracture, joint infection, or soft tissue damage in the opposite limb.

it used to be common at one time due to a certain method of trimming now long discredited so I remember it well.

I would be wondering if the trim was responsible not for the reason that the feet were trimmed short and the horse was already very close to lami due to being fat,, too much grass etc but if the the correctly aligned feet were achieved by a trim that was too severe. You said the farrier cut a fair bit off, I am wondering what he cut off.

 

[mariew]

I had a go with a barefoot trimmer on mine at a time when it was the thing to do, and after the second trim she could barely walk, her feet were trimmed quite hard. My vet said the same thing - it could trigger laminitis. Fortunately it didn't and shoes then went back on once it had calmed down. (I wasn't prepared to let my horse be in pain for a year just to get her barefoot.) Hinds remained unshod but she was always shod on her fronts.

 

[eggs]

I had a large horse some years ago go down with severe laminitis after an overly short trim. Nowadays I am sure he would also be regarded as an EMS horse but in those days this was not really known about.

He had gone a little footy immediately after the trim and my vet's thoughts were that the too short trim had made him uncomfortable and as a result he was overloading his less uncomfortable foot which led to stress laminitis. He had it very badly in all four feet but did come right.

I had another horse who had laminitis but we caught it very quickly and within 48 hours he was sound but we kept on treating him as a laminitic for a few weeks. Fortunately he has never had another episode.

 

[ester]

Thanks Ester. So even if the feet are correctly aligned post trim (which apparently they are) this can still occur?
Is it normal with lami to go sound on bute in 3d?

Yup, the amount of change which is more significant than the end result. Obviously with some very compromised hooves (full neglect cases) the amount of change is less problematic than leaving the hoof as it is so it is warranted to make a big change.

It sounds like you caught it quickly though.

 

[KEK]

Thanks everyone. I will be getting a different farrier to do him next time and I will do whatever it takes to get the weight off him. (Hangry Connie, anyone ?!)

 

[ester]

Make sure you are supplementing enough magnesium

 

[KEK]

Make sure you are supplementing enough magnesium

Using a separate magnesium supplement for nervous horses so have that covered, thanks Is that for the weight loss element?

 

[ester]

It's for the poss metabolic element. Only time I stopped feeding it (for other reasons) we had fat pads pop up - elderly welsh cob, kept as if metabolic, slightly lacking in teeth now which helps!

 

[paddy555]

KEK, am I right in thinking you are in Aus?

 

[Casey76]

Over trimming can definitely cause solar corium inflammation, which presents just as laminitis... been there, got *that* T-shirt ??‍

 

[KEK]

KEK, am I right in thinking you are in Aus?

Yep sure am, why?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Yes.

A vet I know had a client who used a barefoot trimmer.

Trimmer (over and badly) trimmed the horse, and pronounced the horse's feet the best they'd ever been. Horse was transported straight from the trimmer to the vet for a routine check up, and was so crippled with laminitis that it could barely hobble off the lorry into a quickly prepared stable, where it had to stay for a while. Was not fit enough to be transported home for several days.

Trimmer sacked, horse now recovered, and doing very well under the care of a farrier.

 

[paddy555]

Yep sure am, why?

I know nothing of Aus farriers so this is just a suggestion, it is not to insult any of them. Around 20 years a nightmare occurred in the UK and US. A vet called Strasser devised a trimming method. It was a total nightmare. Mechanical laminitis was one of the side effects. Feet were quickly realigned in one go, far too much taken off in one trim, horses lamed, sore and unsound. In the UK we managed to get rid of her trimmers by around 2005 and those left re adjusted to the more acceptable trims. The US also got rid of many. There were still some Strasser trimmers and they went underground. The one area where it was still more acceptable was Aus and possibly NZ. I know she visited. I have a good idea this continued for a long time albeit probably under different names. I am sure some of them adjusted their methods but I suspect some of her original ideas have continued albeit modified. I am just wondering if your farrier has undertaken any barefoot trimming training (in addition to shoeing) and if so if there was any of this influence still around.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Thanks Ester. So even if the feet are correctly aligned post trim (which apparently they are) this can still occur?
Is it normal with lami to go sound on bute in 3d?

A similar thing happened to one of my horses but he was shod in front as normal then 2 days later absolutely hoping lame on LF, he had bounding pulses so we treated as laminitis the shoe was removed though as they thought it was an abscess initially so I padded a boot and he was kept in and he was completely sound after 4 days.

So he was x rayed and there was no sign of laminitis just very thin soles so he then wore boots with pads and he was barefoot for a while that was 2 years ago, I actually have put front shoes on him again as it's stony here and he doesn't cope with all the hacking we do, we don't burn his shoes on and he has just aluminium plates and his been fine, I think his feet were really bruised and sensitive and with the thin soles that last shoeing just made him really sore.

 

[KEK]

I know nothing of Aus farriers so this is just a suggestion, it is not to insult any of them. Around 20 years a nightmare occurred in the UK and US. A vet called Strasser devised a trimming method. It was a total nightmare. Mechanical laminitis was one of the side effects. Feet were quickly realigned in one go, far too much taken off in one trim, horses lamed, sore and unsound. In the UK we managed to get rid of her trimmers by around 2005 and those left re adjusted to the more acceptable trims. The US also got rid of many. There were still some Strasser trimmers and they went underground. The one area where it was still more acceptable was Aus and possibly NZ. I know she visited. I have a good idea this continued for a long time albeit probably under different names. I am sure some of them adjusted their methods but I suspect some of her original ideas have continued albeit modified. I am just wondering if your farrier has undertaken any barefoot trimming training (in addition to shoeing) and if so if there was any of this influence still around.

That sounds horrendous but good to know, thank you. Farrier is definitely a proper farrier, "master" farrier (however you get that) but I do think he took too much off. He did train a long time ago, so I guess its possible :/
Its a nightmare with farriers over here- we have nowhere near enough of them, nightmare to get them to even answer your enquiries let alone come out (esp to trim one pony!)

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

That sounds horrendous but good to know, thank you. Farrier is definitely a proper farrier, "master" farrier (however you get that) but I do think he took too much off. He did train a long time ago, so I guess its possible :/
Its a nightmare with farriers over here- we have nowhere near enough of them, nightmare to get them to even answer your enquiries let alone come out (esp to trim one pony!)

That’s a huge pain. At least in the U.K., we usually have a choice. I’m hoping to see my usual guy next time, I was taken aback by my horse’s last trim and the mention of potential laminitis.

 

[KEK]

That’s a huge pain. At least in the U.K., we usually have a choice. I’m hoping to see my usual guy next time, I was taken aback by my horse’s last trim and the mention of potential laminitis.

Yep sure is. There is a large town about 5hrs north of us, that has a very big horse population and currently they don't have a single farrier! Very difficult.

 

[Northern]

Sorry to hear this KEK. I think an unlucky combination of things may have contributed to this episode, the recent flush of grass, his weight and the trim. Hopefully it is just a "simple" bout and he recovers quickly with anti inflammatories and management. You'll need to keep a good eye on him after this though, it really can be a knifes edge sometimes.

 

[KEK]

Sorry to hear this KEK. I think an unlucky combination of things may have contributed to this episode, the recent flush of grass, his weight and the trim. Hopefully it is just a "simple" bout and he recovers quickly with anti inflammatories and management. You'll need to keep a good eye on him after this though, it really can be a knifes edge sometimes.

Thanks Northern.
I am feeling a bit daunted by his ongoing management, whether he will ever be able to go out on grass, not having access to adlib hay which the 21yo needs, whether he will need riding every day to keep fit (not an option for me with work.) Not sure how it’s all going to go!

 

[Lois Lame]

We had a pile of Strasser hoohah here, online, back in the early 2000s. That was while Cyberhorse was alive and well, before vast hoards left for Facebook.

I've never met Strasser. I've never seen her trims. If people doing Strasser trims were doing poor/bad/terrible work, I wouldn't necessarily shun Strasser. I know nothing about her so I can't.

My best friend has a brother who has always broken and trimmed horses. He is sought after for trimming laminitic horses and ponies. I've never seen him work on such a case (I've seen him trim and shoe) but people come from near and far. He has never been able to successfully train another for the job. It's too difficult and they don't have the feeling.

 

[EJJ999]

Make sure you are supplementing enough magnesium

If you don't mind asking. Why magnesium?

Pony is a chronic laminitic and suspect EMS.

And, to the original question. I believe an over zealous trim has previously brought on a bout of lami. It was probably brewing anyway.

Have found (for this pony) the secret is to having the feet done every four weeks.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

If you don't mind asking. Why magnesium?

Pony is a chronic laminitic and suspect EMS.

And, to the original question. I believe an over zealous trim has previously brought on a bout of lami. It was probably brewing anyway.

Have found (for this pony) the secret is to having the feet done every four weeks.

UK grazing can lack magnesium especially in spring or when the grass is rich, it helps keep overweight horses a bit slimmer and can reduce fat pads so good for good doers or laminitic prone.

 

[Zuzan]

Some of my thoughts are:

I believe Australian soil is extremely high in iron which can block Magnesium uptake and cause inflammatory response which wont help even if not the primary cause. Australasia is one of the few places globally that equids are out of their normal range.

If your pony is barefoot have you considered doing your own trimming? It may sound daunting and I wouldn't reccommend you start during a hoof crisis .. I remember feeling daunted when I started but there are some excellent resources that can help owners maintain their own horses's hooves. Owners often make the best trimmers as able to do more frequent smaller trims (say every two weeks).

 

[KEK]

Some of my thoughts are:

I believe Australian soil is extremely high in iron which can block Magnesium uptake and cause inflammatory response which wont help even if not the primary cause. Australasia is one of the few places globally that equids are out of their normal range.

If your pony is barefoot have you considered doing your own trimming? It may sound daunting and I wouldn't reccommend you start during a hoof crisis .. I remember feeling daunted when I started but there are some excellent resources that can help owners maintain their own horses's hooves. Owners often make the best trimmers as able to do more frequent smaller trims (say every two weeks).

Thanks, he's on a good magnesium supplement now.
Interesting you say that as my OH is studying hard atm, for that exact reason! He is going to start doing ours