Can we talk about L-tryptophan pls?

[hock]

So I grew up learning to ride when calmers weren’t a thing. So I’m pretty clueless, I know magnesium is used but it’s l tryptophan I’d like more anecdotal and professional views on.

I have a lovely horse in for rehab 17hh wb, 10 years, with a very unknown history as the person who bred and owned him died. Lots of rumours but to me he is very very green in every aspect of life. He’s very worried about life in general but slowly over the weeks he has started to look at things before panicing. I have a very supportive owner who wants the very best for the horse.

I have completely stripped his diet back and treated as though grass affected, hay 24/7, a pre/pro biotic, a low sugar balancer and then readi grass and unmolassed sugar beet from the word go. Then he’s getting blue chip calmer. He’s coming in just for work and if the weather is hot, but out as much as poss. He was coming on so well on this regime that we were starting to think about hacking around the farm. He was very laid back calm and easy to do, so when his calmer ran out I thought we would see what happens. Well within 3 days he was a different horse in every sense. Rearing in his stable, spinning and then very very tense under saddle and I jumped off after he started bucking and plunging. The obvious answer is that he had to go back on the calmer and now he’s back to his lovely self. However this doesn’t sit right with me. I’ve had a top back person, teeth person and saddle person out to check everything in the first week he came so we’re all good there but I don’t like the thought that this horse is on this treatment forever to allow him to be ridden. I’m glad he came off it with me as I would be horrified to have returned him and this to happen. I’ve treated him like an unbacked youngster and there’s been no rush with him. I’ve worked him today and he’s been lovely and polite calm and patient. But it doesn’t sit with me 100%. He is a stressy boy and I’ve been reading that this depletes the serotonin levels that are required for relaxation. But is it a temporary short cut? I’m not a big fan of those.

 

[quizzie]

I have tried L-tryptophan on an over-excitable eventer many years ago.....Unfortunately it made him worse, he almost bolted with me XC....brain was definitely not engaged.
As I understand it, this can happen with some horses. In his case, it was time/schooling not dietary adjustment that helped.

In contrast, my current young horse started to exhibit very reactive/excitable /slightly irrational behaviour last winter. I analysed my hay, and found it had a very poor mineral balance, with low magnesium.
I used Nupafeed MAH, and the difference was remarkable....he was undoubtedly magnesium deficient at the time, and adding it seemed to enable his brain to have time to think/process. While on good grass , I have been able to take him off any additional magnesium beyond his normal balancer, but may well have to reassess if my new hay is similar to last years (from same field, so possible).

In short, I think if a horse is actually deficient in something, then adding it can make a difference, but I'm definitely wary of L-tryptophan.

 

[PurBee]

I’d be careful with l-tryptophan dose as too much can induce serotonin syndrome - sleepy/dopey/nausea - which in a horse may look like it works, but the horse probably wont feel great.
Years ago, i accidently overdosed on it by taking half the recommended dose for an adult, and soon after felt dizzy, sick, and extremely dopey and tired, sleeping 6 hours straight in the middle of the day. I was wide awake, working physically and energised before taking it. I took it at the time for stress/anxiety/panic, which worked i guess as i was doped completely!

Ive looked at blue chip calmer ingredients but annoyingly they dont actually state the exact dose of mag/chamomile or tryptophan in their product. All that can be ‘assumed’ from their ingredient list is that the doses are relatively low as many bulk agents and binders are listed first.

My warning is for those who think buying powdered l-tryptophan and dosing their horse is the way to go. Horses cant vomit, and too much tryptophan does induce nausea/vomiting which likely would mean colicky symptoms in a horse.

Chamomile is sedating, not in a great way either like l-trytophan - you dont feel happy chilled calm, you feel heavy, tired which looks like calmness, because you dont have energy for stress/panic. Its similar to being under a heavy blanket and you cant move, but instead thats happening to the mind. Sedation and calmness are 2 different states.

I personally wouldnt like to use neurotransmitter route therapy in animals as they cant speak and tell how they feel on it. I prefer using nutrients, minerals and vitamins as they are all the building blocks of neurotransmitters, and allow the body to use those baseline nutrients to do what it needs to.

The equine nutrient therapy supplement market isnt tightly regulated like the human market, and i am often shocked at ingredients used, especially herbs.

Growing grass leaves actually has lots of magnesium in it. Very short 1 inch grazed yellowish-green stressed grass doesnt have much. Depending on your fields grazing rate/grass growth status depends how much it’ll have. Hay is usually low on average for magnesium because its dried seed stalks and not much dried grass leaf, hence why you switching to hay and the calmer has had an effect, especially if prior he was grazing on short grass.

I wonder if just using magnesium would work for him, as aside from the bulking agents in the blue chip calmer pellets, the first ‘therapeutic’ ingredient is magnesium. So we can ‘guess’ (because they dont tell us dose per day rate!) that the magnesium is the higher dose, compared to chamomile etc listed further below. They say they add probiotics and other nutrients, but nowhere on their sales page do they give ‘mg’ amounts per dose.
I loathe deceptive marketing.

Why on earth they add garlic powder, which is natures antibiotic and kills off gut bacteria, i dont know. Only then to add pre and probiotics in the same product! Complete non-sense approach to mix antagonistic ingredients - Throw everything in and fingers crossed it helps somehow!

You could trial a slow switch-over from the calmer to just a simple magnesium based balancer. As he’s just on hay now it would be preferable to switch to a balancer thats not got bulking ingredients and uses a mix of pure minerals like forage plus powdered balancers. They usually have a good dose of magnesium per daily scoop. That would also cover zinc/copper needs, also not found in hay.

Because blue chip are not being transparent with their doses - it means we fly blind trying to assess the situation. If he reverts to being a stressy boy on a good powdered magnesium based balancer, then it can be assumed that the sedating ingredients (that they call ‘calmers’) in blue chip did act like a blanket on his mind/body, and that indicates deeper issues, as no horse on a balanced healthy diet should need to be sedated with anything to ‘appear’ to be a calm horse. Further pain investigations might be warranted if that were the case.
Thats worse case scenario, and it may well be the switch over to say forage plus balancer, due to maintaining magnesium levels, keeps him calmer. Then he can be off the other dubious ingredients in blue chip.

If you wanted to try something else aside from blue chip, i’d personally try that route of slowly changing over the span of 2 weeks the 2 products and assess.

 

[Fieldlife]

why are you assuming it is the L-typtophan in the the blue chip calmer? And not any other ingredient?

 

[PurBee]

Out of interest, which low sugar balancer are you using? If thats fairly low in magnesium, then that could be why he fares better with blue chip added.

 

[Fieldlife]

Is this the calmer? https://www.supplementsolutions.co.uk/blue-chip-super-concentrated-calming-balancer-3kg-equine

Ingredients are - magnesium, l-tryptophan, probiotic and chamomile, also includes digestive supplement, hoof supplement, respiratory supplement, vitamins, minerals, oils and nucleotides.

Could be he has a magnesium deficiency? Could be the probiotic helps him? Or the digestive supplement?

 

[Fieldlife]

Sounds like a lovely thoughtful consideration overall approach..

 

[vhf]

He was very laid back calm and easy to do, so when his calmer ran out I thought we would see what happens. Well within 3 days he was a different horse in every sense. Rearing in his stable, spinning and then very very tense under saddle and I jumped off after he started bucking and plunging. The obvious answer is that he had to go back on the calmer and now he’s back to his lovely self. However this doesn’t sit right with me.

An alternate thought. On the calmer, for whatever reason/ingredient, he is more relaxed, muscles relax, etc. Off the calmer, things tense up and a niggle that he's unaware of when 'relaxed' makes him overreact? So the calmer is masking a pain response, rather than promoting calm and reasoned thought as intended. (And obviously, no reason why both shouldn't be the case either because, well, horses!)

 

[shortstuff99]

Is this the calmer? https://www.supplementsolutions.co.uk/blue-chip-super-concentrated-calming-balancer-3kg-equine

Ingredients are - magnesium, l-tryptophan, probiotic and chamomile, also includes digestive supplement, hoof supplement, respiratory supplement, vitamins, minerals, oils and nucleotides.

Could be he has a magnesium deficiency? Could be the probiotic helps him? Or the digestive supplement?

Probably the chamomile as that is an FEI banned substance as does chill them out.

 

[hock]

I’m blown away by the replies, thank you so much for taking the time.

So to answer a few questions he was on a magnesium supplement with no changes (about 4 weeks) as soon as my client bought him on my advice. He came to me after he bronked off a rider. My horses are all on the same base balancer which is Brinicombe and he is on the double convalescing dose. He is also on boswalia and blue chip. He is turned out in a bare paddock with a Heston bale of hay with his soon to be hacking buddy. Most of my horses live like this however he is the only one that I would be very strict about as the only other time with me he bucked mildly was after a night in a paddock as a reward after a very calm and accommodating ride. The owner has also remembered the day before he bricked a rider off he was turned out in the new field.

My main concern is that the ltryptophan is hiding something. Everything new we have in sees the dentist, back and then the saddle lady before they do any ridden work, this saves so much time in the long run. My back lady noted he was very weak but slow rehab was exactly what was required and she was happy for him to crack on. I was quite surprised by how in good nick he was as I assumed pain. I have excellent professionals that I thoroughly trust but wouldn’t hesitate to investigate further if o had concerns. But he’s moving well he’s starting to swing nicely and is nearly fully tracking up in trot. He’s just started to canter on a very large circle (on the lunge) which we hadn’t a hope of 8 weeks ago, it’s also become 3 time rather than 4. So everything is pointing in the right direction, he has equal push behind but is still lacking muscle across hi SI but I’ve seen an improvement there. His top line is looking good and correct and he’s not worked in a tight contact, so I’m hopeful it’s from correct biomechanics. He’s barefoot but wearing his feet fairly balanced. I did read today an article that talked about tryptophan not being a sedative, clearly I need to do further research on this.

 

[hock]

Is this the calmer? https://www.supplementsolutions.co.uk/blue-chip-super-concentrated-calming-balancer-3kg-equine

Ingredients are - magnesium, l-tryptophan, probiotic and chamomile, also includes digestive supplement, hoof supplement, respiratory supplement, vitamins, minerals, oils and nucleotides.

Could be he has a magnesium deficiency? Could be the probiotic helps him? Or the digestive supplement?

Yes that’s the one!

 

[hock]

An alternate thought. On the calmer, for whatever reason/ingredient, he is more relaxed, muscles relax, etc. Off the calmer, things tense up and a niggle that he's unaware of when 'relaxed' makes him overreact? So the calmer is masking a pain response, rather than promoting calm and reasoned thought as intended. (And obviously, no reason why both shouldn't be the case either because, well, horses!)

This is my concern and one of the reasons I put him on boswalia at the start when he came to me. One of the rumours is he’d spent the last couple of years in a stable only so I wanted the easiest and supported way into work as possible. I could see he was holding himself when around people all the time, reminding me in a way of frozen watchfulness. His only reaction would be to run and then look back. Very slowly I have got him to consider another way of dealing with being scared.

 

[nutjob]

L-tryptophan made no difference to my stressy horse at all. It was recommended by my vet and was a powder on its own not formulated with other stuff. I had the same lack of effect with magnesium, valerian, chamomile and vervain.

 

[vhf]

This is my concern and one of the reasons I put him on boswalia at the start when he came to me. One of the rumours is he’d spent the last couple of years in a stable only so I wanted the easiest and supported way into work as possible. I could see he was holding himself when around people all the time, reminding me in a way of frozen watchfulness. His only reaction would be to run and then look back. Very slowly I have got him to consider another way of dealing with being scared.

Mmm. What a potentially sad story this lad has. Another one with a lot to teach, but it would be so much easier if they could talk... I hope the owner is ready for the long haul if you're going to get to the bottom of him.

 

[hock]

L-tryptophan made no difference to my stressy horse at all. It was recommended by my vet and was a powder on its own not formulated with other stuff. I had the same lack of effect with magnesium, valerian, chamomile and vervain.

Interesting, was your horse stressy 24/7 or just in certain situations? Could your horse have been grass affected?

 

[hock]

Mmm. What a potentially sad story this lad has. Another one with a lot to teach, but it would be so much easier if they could talk... I hope the owner is ready for the long haul if you're going to get to the bottom of him.

The client is super and has been very supportive in giving me lots of time to start him gently after a long transition period of moving yards. We will never know what has happened to this boy but we will progress at his level.

I’ve done a bit more research today on L-T and while I’m always questioning (today a pharmacist) I’m unconvinced it’s a sedative. It is used to help insomniacs sleep where lack of melatonin production is suspected (L-T being an amino acid necessary for Melatonin production). In terms of the horse it has shown an improvement clinically but obviously he can’t tell me if he feels drowsy although tomorrow I will monitor his tpr .. pity I didn’t do it while he was off the drug. I honestly feel in terms of his benefit it would be detrimental to his quality of life to take him off it. I will as ever monitor soundness (currently: even hind push, better balance hoof wear than my own riding horses, over track in walk straight line and 20m circle and close to full track in trot and an obvious improvement in suppleness) and update of anyones interested. Thanks again for the advice and if anyone can add, please do.

 

[Fieldlife]

The client is super and has been very supportive in giving me lots of time to start him gently after a long transition period of moving yards. We will never know what has happened to this boy but we will progress at his level.

I’ve done a bit more research today on L-T and while I’m always questioning (today a pharmacist) I’m unconvinced it’s a sedative. It is used to help insomniacs sleep where lack of melatonin production is suspected (L-T being an amino acid necessary for Melatonin production). In terms of the horse it has shown an improvement clinically but obviously he can’t tell me if he feels drowsy although tomorrow I will monitor his tpr .. pity I didn’t do it while he was off the drug. I honestly feel in terms of his benefit it would be detrimental to his quality of life to take him off it. I will as ever monitor soundness (currently: even hind push, better balance hoof wear than my own riding horses, over track in walk straight line and 20m circle and close to full track in trot and an obvious improvement in suppleness) and update of anyones interested. Thanks again for the advice and if anyone can add, please do.

How do you know he is benefiting from the L-T specifically rather than some of the other ingredients in the supplement such as the chamomile or the magnesium or the gut support?

 

[nutjob]

Interesting, was your horse stressy 24/7 or just in certain situations? Could your horse have been grass affected?

He is kept at home in a quiet stable environment with a regular routine and day to day he now seems fine but I've had him 9 years. However, if there is anything slightly different happening in the vicinity he very quickly starts pacing which can go on for hours, even once the thing stops. I don't think its grass related, I don't have a lot and it's rough grazing not fertilised and he overnights in the school with hay. Winter there's no grass really and he's no different. He does get Mg in a daily supplement so he's unlikely to be deficient in that.

I do think at least part of the reason is he was orphaned as a foal and another mare adopted him as well as her own foal. I believe this has caused a lot of insecurity especially with food and being separated from other horses. It took a long time and a lot of work for him to be able to be left on his own, he'd start panicking as soon as my other horse was out of sight, literally within 2 seconds.

It's been very slow going but he has gradually improved, if any calmer had helped I would have continued to used it, not least because he's had a number of injuries caused by panicking. Over the years he has gradually improved and I did have a behavioural specialist see him a couple of times for specific things. This made quite a difference and there were significant general improvements in a lot of things which hadn't specifically been addressed.

How do you know he is benefiting from the L-T specifically rather than some of the other ingredients in the supplement such as the chamomile or the magnesium or the gut support?

This is a good point, I wish I'd been more clued up about gut issues when I first got my horse.

 

[hock]

How do you know he is benefiting from the L-T specifically rather than some of the other ingredients in the supplement such as the chamomile or the magnesium or the gut support?

I can’t know about chamomile as I don’t believe that is in my broad spectrum balancer however I do know that magnesium had no effect especially in comparison to his current calmer. Gut support he has been on that from day one and is on the loading/convalescing dose for added support. I was very fortunate back in the 90’s to have a friend do a dissertation on probiotics and read the results, very convincing back then.

 

[hock]

He is kept at home in a quiet stable environment with a regular routine and day to day he now seems fine but I've had him 9 years. However, if there is anything slightly different happening in the vicinity he very quickly starts pacing which can go on for hours, even once the thing stops. I don't think its grass related, I don't have a lot and it's rough grazing not fertilised and he overnights in the school with hay. Winter there's no grass really and he's no different. He does get Mg in a daily supplement so he's unlikely to be deficient in that.

I do think at least part of the reason is he was orphaned as a foal and another mare adopted him as well as her own foal. I believe this has caused a lot of insecurity especially with food and being separated from other horses. It took a long time and a lot of work for him to be able to be left on his own, he'd start panicking as soon as my other horse was out of sight, literally within 2 seconds.

It's been very slow going but he has gradually improved, if any calmer had helped I would have continued to used it, not least because he's had a number of injuries caused by panicking. Over the years he has gradually improved and I did have a behavioural specialist see him a couple of times for specific things. This made quite a difference and there were significant general improvements in a lot of things which hadn't specifically been addressed.



This is a good point, I wish I'd been more clued up about gut issues when I first got my horse.

Yes it does sound like he’s triggering from trauma doesn’t it bless him, almost like ptsd.

I’ve “fed” the gut for a long time and touchwood had no need to treat for ulcers. I just wish I’d made the link to the human gut much sooner. I’ve been treating my gut for about 6 ish months now and have felt tremendous benefits, who’d have thought it. Makes me wonder about what we will discover in the next 10 years.

 

[PurBee]

I’m blown away by the replies, thank you so much for taking the time.

So to answer a few questions he was on a magnesium supplement with no changes (about 4 weeks) as soon as my client bought him on my advice. He came to me after he bronked off a rider. My horses are all on the same base balancer which is Brinicombe and he is on the double convalescing dose. He is also on boswalia and blue chip. He is turned out in a bare paddock with a Heston bale of hay with his soon to be hacking buddy. Most of my horses live like this however he is the only one that I would be very strict about as the only other time with me he bucked mildly was after a night in a paddock as a reward after a very calm and accommodating ride. The owner has also remembered the day before he bricked a rider off he was turned out in the new field.

My main concern is that the ltryptophan is hiding something. Everything new we have in sees the dentist, back and then the saddle lady before they do any ridden work, this saves so much time in the long run. My back lady noted he was very weak but slow rehab was exactly what was required and she was happy for him to crack on. I was quite surprised by how in good nick he was as I assumed pain. I have excellent professionals that I thoroughly trust but wouldn’t hesitate to investigate further if o had concerns. But he’s moving well he’s starting to swing nicely and is nearly fully tracking up in trot. He’s just started to canter on a very large circle (on the lunge) which we hadn’t a hope of 8 weeks ago, it’s also become 3 time rather than 4. So everything is pointing in the right direction, he has equal push behind but is still lacking muscle across hi SI but I’ve seen an improvement there. His top line is looking good and correct and he’s not worked in a tight contact, so I’m hopeful it’s from correct biomechanics. He’s barefoot but wearing his feet fairly balanced. I did read today an article that talked about tryptophan not being a sedative, clearly I need to do further research on this.

When he was on just magnesium for the 4 weeks with no change, was he also on your balancer, probiotics etc then too?

The other ingredient thats major and possibly having an impact in the blue chip is the level of calcium.
Here’s the ingredient list from their website in order of ingredients, i’ll bold the high calcium ingredients:

Composition: Wheatfeed, Alfalfa, Dehulled Soya Bean Meal, Calcium Carbonate, Linseed Expeller, Soya (Bean) Hulls, Magnesium Oxide, Mono Calcium Phosphate, Sodium Chloride, Vitamin & Mineral Premix, Chamomile, Soya Oil, Calcium Sulphate (E516) and Fatty Acids (Pellet Binder), Dicalcium Phosphate, Garlic Powder, Nucleotides

Calcium and magnesium work in tandem within the muscles to contract and relax. With your particular horse’s sketchy history and possibility of stable confinement, which we may assume had far reaching nutritional effects too - he may actually need the calcium due to his past nutritional deficits.
Calcium helps regulate the heart too - minerals do so many jobs its impossible to list them all in a post, but any prolonged time going withiut a major mineral or too much of one eventually has effects.

Im not convinced the ‘marketing ingredients’ in the bluechip like l-trytophan, chamomile are necessarily the cause of his shift on it. It doesnt help they dont tell us specific gram amounts per dose of anything, the fact theyre far lower in the ingredients list suggest theyre at the mg range.

(For reference i took 50mg of l-tryptophan that triggered my ‘episode’ so a horse 10 times my weight likely wouldnt notice a thing. L-trytophan has been thought to be a sedative helpful for insomnia since the 70’s and a few studies for humans show doses of 1g to be helpful. 1g would scare me! Its in a lot of ‘sleep aid’ supplement mixes for humans.
Trytophan can be shunted by the body to other pathways aside from serotonin use, so its thought thats what happens when it induces sedation instead of ‘happy jolly’ serotonin pathway. So its either a mood booster or a sedative depending on what the body does with it, and thats uncontrollable, as i found out. )

The calcium amount in the whole product of blue chip is far higher than any singular ingredient, as we have 5 calcium additions - alfalfa and calcium carbonate being the major ones.

Here’s a good overview of calcium - have you had your hay tested in the past and know its calcium?

Calcium Deficiency in Horses: Is Your Horse Getting Enough

Calcium deficiency in horses is rare, but it does happen. If your horse isn’t getting enough, it's important to get that balance back.

blog.adoredbeast.com

If he’s on boswellia for arthritic/stiffness symptoms, and being relatively young would be surprising, but his sketchy history possibly explains why, and so we have another symptom of potential calcium issues, which leads me to wonder if calcium is the ingredient he’s needing.
The only way to know would be to slowly switch from the blue chip to calcium carbonate powder added to his feed, dont change anything else of his supplements, and wait the 3 days ‘window’.
What dose to try is hard to know - but as the blue chip dose weight is 50g, and merck vet manual states a mature 500kg horse needs 20grams calcium per day - you could safely opt for starting at 5grams and likely build up to 10 depending on other calcium foods. He’s not at grass and just hay so we can ‘guess’ there’s 10g coming from that, as a rough guide.

I personally would be inclined to email blue chip and ask them exactly how many grams per 50g dose of their product is calcium. Then i’d replace that amount with calcium carbonate.

If youre feeding speedibeet by the way, thats high-ish calcium.

Testing calcium in blood doesnt give a clear picture as the body will rob calcium from the bones to provide the blood with the perfect amount required, until it really cant do it anymore. So a ‘normal’ result doesnt help indicate calcium issues that are underlying. But it may be worth doing as an abnormal low calcium blood result would certainly indicate strong calcium issues.

 

[hock]

Interesting!! I need to discuss with the client what balancer he was on as I can’t remember but that raises a very good point. (The magic ingredient is in the Blue Chip by the sounds of it so yes I can see the gut instinct re: calcium). He almost definitely not been fed a balanced diet so again that does sound a distinct possibility. And yes I understand about a calcium test being unreliable because in the case of low calcium we'd only see a result if all the calcium in his bones had been used up, again really interesting. The boswalia is something I put him on to support his transition into work and I will ease him off it now.

I do have a supply of speedibeet because at least once a week we haven’t quite soaked enough 24 beet. Re: hay and testing. I get through a huge amount of hay and use a supplier that drops bales directly into my fields twice weekly. Unfortunately he has to buy it in as we have so much off him that his hay lasts about 3 months. This is why it’s so important that everyone has a balancer as testing wouldn’t be reliable.

I have emailed blue chip not specifically for the calcium but for a breakdown of the calmer. Hopefully this will be included. Thank you for taking so much time to reply. I think it maybe worth while looking at the blood test route re: the calcium. Is a lumbar puncture the only way to test the quality of calcium in his bones?

 

[quizzie]

When he was on just magnesium for the 4 weeks with no change, was he also on your balancer, probiotics etc then too?

The other ingredient thats major and possibly having an impact in the blue chip is the level of calcium.
Here’s the ingredient list from their website in order of ingredients, i’ll bold the high calcium ingredients:

Composition: Wheatfeed, Alfalfa, Dehulled Soya Bean Meal, Calcium Carbonate, Linseed Expeller, Soya (Bean) Hulls, Magnesium Oxide, Mono Calcium Phosphate, Sodium Chloride, Vitamin & Mineral Premix, Chamomile, Soya Oil, Calcium Sulphate (E516) and Fatty Acids (Pellet Binder), Dicalcium Phosphate, Garlic Powder, Nucleotides

Calcium and magnesium work in tandem within the muscles to contract and relax. With your particular horse’s sketchy history and possibility of stable confinement, which we may assume had far reaching nutritional effects too - he may actually need the calcium due to his past nutritional deficits.
Calcium helps regulate the heart too - minerals do so many jobs its impossible to list them all in a post, but any prolonged time going withiut a major mineral or too much of one eventually has effects.

Im not convinced the ‘marketing ingredients’ in the bluechip like l-trytophan, chamomile are necessarily the cause of his shift on it. It doesnt help they dont tell us specific gram amounts per dose of anything, the fact theyre far lower in the ingredients list suggest theyre at the mg range.

(For reference i took 50mg of l-tryptophan that triggered my ‘episode’ so a horse 10 times my weight likely wouldnt notice a thing. L-trytophan has been thought to be a sedative helpful for insomnia since the 70’s and a few studies for humans show doses of 1g to be helpful. 1g would scare me! Its in a lot of ‘sleep aid’ supplement mixes for humans.
Trytophan can be shunted by the body to other pathways aside from serotonin use, so its thought thats what happens when it induces sedation instead of ‘happy jolly’ serotonin pathway. So its either a mood booster or a sedative depending on what the body does with it, and thats uncontrollable, as i found out. )

The calcium amount in the whole product of blue chip is far higher than any singular ingredient, as we have 5 calcium additions - alfalfa and calcium carbonate being the major ones.

Here’s a good overview of calcium - have you had your hay tested in the past and know its calcium?

Calcium Deficiency in Horses: Is Your Horse Getting Enough

Calcium deficiency in horses is rare, but it does happen. If your horse isn’t getting enough, it's important to get that balance back.

blog.adoredbeast.com

If he’s on boswellia for arthritic/stiffness symptoms, and being relatively young would be surprising, but his sketchy history possibly explains why, and so we have another symptom of potential calcium issues, which leads me to wonder if calcium is the ingredient he’s needing.
The only way to know would be to slowly switch from the blue chip to calcium carbonate powder added to his feed, dont change anything else of his supplements, and wait the 3 days ‘window’.
What dose to try is hard to know - but as the blue chip dose weight is 50g, and merck vet manual states a mature 500kg horse needs 20grams calcium per day - you could safely opt for starting at 5grams and likely build up to 10 depending on other calcium foods. He’s not at grass and just hay so we can ‘guess’ there’s 10g coming from that, as a rough guide.

I personally would be inclined to email blue chip and ask them exactly how many grams per 50g dose of their product is calcium. Then i’d replace that amount with calcium carbonate.

If youre feeding speedibeet by the way, thats high-ish calcium.

Testing calcium in blood doesnt give a clear picture as the body will rob calcium from the bones to provide the blood with the perfect amount required, until it really cant do it anymore. So a ‘normal’ result doesnt help indicate calcium issues that are underlying. But it may be worth doing as an abnormal low calcium blood result would certainly indicate strong calcium issues.

Interesting!! I need to discuss with the client what balancer he was on as I can’t remember but that raises a very good point. (The magic ingredient is in the Blue Chip by the sounds of it so yes I can see the gut instinct re: calcium). He almost definitely not been fed a balanced diet so again that does sound a distinct possibility. And yes I understand about a calcium test being unreliable because in the case of low calcium we'd only see a result if all the calcium in his bones had been used up, again really interesting. The boswalia is something I put him on to support his transition into work and I will ease him off it now.

I do have a supply of speedibeet because at least once a week we haven’t quite soaked enough 24 beet. Re: hay and testing. I get through a huge amount of hay and use a supplier that drops bales directly into my fields twice weekly. Unfortunately he has to buy it in as we have so much off him that his hay lasts about 3 months. This is why it’s so important that everyone has a balancer as testing wouldn’t be reliable.

I have emailed blue chip not specifically for the calcium but for a breakdown of the calmer. Hopefully this will be included. Thank you for taking so much time to reply. I think it maybe worth while looking at the blood test route re: the calcium. Is a lumbar puncture the only way to test the quality of calcium in his bones?

I don't think there is any accurate test for the amount of calcium held in the body in "stores".

Also several more factors to consider ( forgive me...you probably know all this, but...)

.......Calcium carbonate is only 40% calcium, so 10g Calcium carb, would only contain 4g elemental calcium.
.......Some forms of minerals are more bioavailable than others, eg magnesium oxide is poor absorbed/utilised.
.......The stated NRC ( daily requirement) of both minerals is probably inadequate in the working horse, so need to provide significantly more ( Forage plus suggest 1.5 x NRC so 45g Ca and 14.3g Mg for 500g horse....but this leaves Ca/Mg ratio too high, so extra Mg needed)
.......The ratio of Calcium to magnesium is as important as the total amounts fed, and should be approx 1.5:1 to 2:1 Ca/Mg
Blue chip should be able to provide you with a full analysis stating the amounts of elemental Ca and Mg in their product.
.......Most forage in the UK is higher in Ca/lower in Mg

 

[PurBee]

Interesting!! I need to discuss with the client what balancer he was on as I can’t remember but that raises a very good point. (The magic ingredient is in the Blue Chip by the sounds of it so yes I can see the gut instinct re: calcium). He almost definitely not been fed a balanced diet so again that does sound a distinct possibility. And yes I understand about a calcium test being unreliable because in the case of low calcium we'd only see a result if all the calcium in his bones had been used up, again really interesting. The boswalia is something I put him on to support his transition into work and I will ease him off it now.

I do have a supply of speedibeet because at least once a week we haven’t quite soaked enough 24 beet. Re: hay and testing. I get through a huge amount of hay and use a supplier that drops bales directly into my fields twice weekly. Unfortunately he has to buy it in as we have so much off him that his hay lasts about 3 months. This is why it’s so important that everyone has a balancer as testing wouldn’t be reliable.

I have emailed blue chip not specifically for the calcium but for a breakdown of the calmer. Hopefully this will be included. Thank you for taking so much time to reply. I think it maybe worth while looking at the blood test route re: the calcium. Is a lumbar puncture the only way to test the quality of calcium in his bones?

I hope blue chip get back to you soon about the ingredient amounts - that would be soooo useful to help determine which aspect is likely calming him.

Sorry, when i said speedibeet, i meant all sugar beet feeds are high-ish in calcium, whether long soak pellets or the speedibeet flakes.

Radiographs, blood and urine are usually used diagnostically for calcium status. Blood draw would be the quickest cheapest route, and if that flags up an anomaly, then further urine test/scans could be done, but if blood shows low, that would warrant a diet adjustment.

Vitamin D and the parathyroid glands regulates calcium release so sometimes a calcium deficiency can be due to vit D deficiency - but with him now being out in sunlight, and having another vitamin balancer aside from blue chip, that doesnt seem likely.
If blood calcium shows low, i’d add vit D too, as the vit D and parathyroids is the system to rob calcium from the bones and keep calcium in the blood. Low blood calcium therefore can be indicative of vit D deficiency - and it would be worth totting-up the vit D in his supplements.
That might also be why he needs oral calcium supps, as that feeds calcium into the blood stream from the digestive system, topping up calcium in the blood. If the vit D/parathyroid system isnt working (usually due to vit D deficiency), the only way to maintain stable blood calcium levels is via regular oral feeding.
But also worth considering, especially if he did spend significant time stabled and not outside with basic feed, his mineral regulation system/hormone systems could have gone off kilter and these are now re-building, and his requirements are more nutritionally demanding than the average horse.

Once an answer from blue chip has been given it will help pin-point rather than guessing. If there’s 5g+ tryptophan, and 10g+ chamomile in every 50g dose, then they combined could be the ‘calming’ aspect.
But yes, gut does say that the significant added calcium in their product should be noted. Theres also going to be some grams of calcium in the soy too.
Despite blue chip not helping with them not listing dosage amounts, their product is helping highlight an issue, and with more detailed info from them, could help nail the issue.
You were reasonable in thinking missing out that product once you’d run out, considering everything else he’s getting supplement-wise, so it’s very interesting he has an acute need for X for X reason from their product, which helps to narrow it down and solve it.

 

[hock]

I’m just going to sit here and stare at my inbox now. We need a man on the inside.

 

[I'm Dun]

I'd put him on a fairly big dose of vitamin e to see if it helps. Hes going to be deficient if he never has access to green grass, and being weak like that can be a sign of a deficiency. With regards the calmer, Id imagine its a combination of the ingredients working together just suits him. it would be very hard to mask pain without having a significant calming/sedative effect.

 

[hock]

Calming Feed Balancer 3kg​
Grams fed per day:​	100​
Ingredient	Inclusion (%)	Amount	Unit
Est digestible energy(as fed)​	9.7​	Mj/KG
Protein	19.5​	19.5​	g
Oils/Fats	4.5​	4.5​	g
Fibre	9.5​	9.5​	g
Ash	23​	23​	g
Lysine	1​	1​	g
Methionine	0.3​	0.3​	g
Starch	9.5​	9.5​	g
Sugar	4.5​	4.5​	g
Omega 3	0.6​	0.6​	g
Omega 6	1.7​	1.7​	g
L-Tryptophan	0.025​	25​	mg
Calcium	5.8​	5.8​	g
Phosphorous	1.2​	1.2​	g
Magnesium	2.2​	2.2​	g
Sodium	0.9​	0.9​	g
Potassium	0.012​	12​	mg
Sulphur	0.5​	0.5​	g
Vitamin A	300000​	30000​	IU
Vitamin D3	40000​	4000​	IU
Vitamin E	0.1​	100​	mg	222​	IU
Vitamin K	0.0065​	6.5​	mg
Vitamin C	0.01​	10​	mg
Niacin	0.0135​	13.5​	mg
Pantothenic Acid	0.00735​	7.35​	mg
Folic Acid	0.00675​	6.75​	mg
Vitamin B2	0.0225​	22.5​	mg
Vitamin B12	0.025​	25​	mg
Biotin	0.015​	15​	mg
Copper	0.105​	105​	mg
Iron	0.105​	105​	mg
Manganese	0.13​	130​	mg
Selenium	0.0016​	1.6​	mg
Zinc	0.355​	355​	mg
Iodine	0.00075​	0.75​	mg
Chamomile	1.25​	1.25​	g
Clinptolite Clay	0.00005​	0.05​	mg
Nucleotides	0.01​	10​	mg

 

[hock]

Hopefully I am better with horses than anything with a plug . Had a super reply from Blue Chip really comprehensive and I believe to be transparent. Just need the grown ups on this thread to interpret the data please!

 

[nutjob]

I would say that's a very small amount of vit e, especially given the history of the horse and that he is currently on restricted grazing.

 

[quizzie]

It would be interesting to know what the magnesium balancer he was given previously was ( and with what feed) .....to compare with the blue chip one, plus your readigrass/unmollased SB.

Assuming the second column of figures is amount in dose fed per day?
There is only 25mg L-tryptophan....where calming dose is recommended as 25g+.
Not much Chamomile either .
A moderate amount of Ca and not quite enough Mg.

Maybe it is just generally balancing up his system.....if he is better on it...then I'd just keep going....!