can welsh ponies be dun?

millikins said:
In what way interesting? Do you mean like Shetlands where pretty much all the colour genes are present, except spots, or something more scientific?
Click to expand...
As an even further aside has the mushroom colour in Shetlands held up to scrutiny, does anyone know?.
 
They throw interesting shades from their known genetics, probably more research to be done but for instance they have an a modifier than effects the shade when combined with cream that I don't think has been found in others. They also have unique white spotting genes.
 
millikins said:
View attachment 168258
M. Trumpeter is chestnut according to this, with no duns mentioned in his breeding. Why do you consider him dun rather than Nd 1?
Click to expand...
Because his photos clearly show he is dun rather than nd1 and I saw him in the flesh when I took the photos I posted above. I also own his granddaughter and granddaughters and grt granddaughter the red dun stallion posted above is my mare's grandson and therefore grt grandson to Trumpeter all are tested. Because duns are not normally registered as duns you have to follow the breadcrumbs in the pedigree. I traced a black dun pony in the USA bred from ponies exported from Wales who were duns and they went back to the Cwmowen ponies same as Trumpeter and most duns go back to Forest Blue Banner and if not him to other Forest ponies in same bloodline.
 
unless you're said aforementioned funky icelandic then you can see it on black too ;).

I generally find it makes more sense to specify red/black pigment than red and bay as that automatically explains the distribution of dilution too.
 
ester said:
unless you're said aforementioned funky icelandic then you can see it on black too ;).

I generally find it makes more sense to specify red/black pigment than red and bay as that automatically explains the distribution of dilution too.
Click to expand...
I nearly bought an Icelandic that was black + creme and you could certainly see the difference between her and a black one and not just in the eye colour.

Just found a pic of another black+creme with her palomino foal by a bay stallion.
lotta&lett.jpg
 
Last edited:
There are some lovely dun Welshies coming up for auction at the Llanybydder sale on Nov 1st.

From the estate of the late Eirian Thomas, link on Llanybydder horse sale- Evans Bros.
 
I'm not clued up on colour genetics, but know the old welsh bred well.

We had a welsh A stallion called Gunthwaite Sir Thomas who was registered cream. By all accounts he was palomino with 4 white socks, but he had grey hairs through his mane and tail, enough to consider him 'not' palomino. I've got his 5 generation pedigree somewhere (hand written) if anyone would be interested.

He through a lot of rose grey off spring, but we had one of his daughters as a broodmare who was bay with black points and white socks. I don't recall ever having a 'cream' foal from him, even put to a dun/buckskin mare.
 
His pedigree is here, he's only down as palo/grey on the original allbreed pedigree but Im liking the new site 🤣

beta.allbreedpedigree.com

GUNTHWAITE SIR THOMAS Pedigree

A complete pedigree and breeding report for the Welsh Mountain Pony GUNTHWAITE SIR THOMAS. Add your horse for free.
beta.allbreedpedigree.com beta.allbreedpedigree.com
 
ester said:
His pedigree is here, he's only down as palo/grey on the original allbreed pedigree but Im liking the new site 🤣

beta.allbreedpedigree.com

GUNTHWAITE SIR THOMAS Pedigree

A complete pedigree and breeding report for the Welsh Mountain Pony GUNTHWAITE SIR THOMAS. Add your horse for free.
beta.allbreedpedigree.com beta.allbreedpedigree.com
Click to expand...

I couldn't find that!

That is interesting I have his registration document (long before the days of passports) and it says CREAM - honest!!
 
Cmpips said:
yes because a buckskin is only bay plus cream so the only dun it resembles is a bay dun hence the confusion however dun can be on any base not just bay
Click to expand...
I think you are missing where the confusion in language comes from.

The term dun comes from Ireland and in yesteryear was generally a term that meant creamy tinge to coat and dark points. People would then preface the word Dun with other descriptive terms - chocolate dun, mouse dun, blue run, red dun, yellow dun, golden dun etc. Yes, what we now describe as buckskin being described as golden/yellow dun was normal, but there were also smokey blacks described as Duns, liver chestnuts described as Duns, nd1 bays described as Duns, early stage greys described as blue Duns etc.

Personally I think it is unfortunate that when genetic understanding came around to naming the genes involved, that the cream gene wasn't called dun and the dun gene called something else, or the name dun was not used at all. The names falling as they have has caused confusion and no small amount of irritation ref Irish horses now suddenly not being able to be accurately described using the Irish-origin term for a particular coat colour that is prevalent in the Irish breeds.

But it's not that people don't realise that Dun can be on any base coat colour. They generally either don't care/don't know about the genetic terms or they do know but find it irritating on principle, so they continue using the colloquial terms that they grew up with.

It's kind of like what might have happened if the name Roan had been given to the Lp gene, rather than the roan gene. I don't think for one second that would have stopped people describing their horses with white ticking and stronger/darker points as generically roan.
 
And that’s the reason I don’t get too militant about it unless we’re having an actual genetics conversation/I think the person would be interested.
 
DabDab said:
Personally I think it is unfortunate that when genetic understanding came around to naming the genes involved, that the cream gene wasn't called dun and the dun gene called something else,
Click to expand...
I think you would have still had confusion only people arguing the other way round and we already had palomino to describe the effect of cream on red.

And a completely new term would still have had the "well we always called it this and my horses papers say .."

The basic issue is bay dun and buckskin look similar visually because of totally different genes.
 
Cmpips said:
Because duns are not normally registered as duns you have to follow the breadcrumbs in the pedigree.
Click to expand...
This is the reason why a little accuracy can be useful.

It's fine for people on a livery yard to describe a buckskin as dun and talk chocolate but the terms are getting added to papers/passports and then on sites like allbreedpedigree.

The subject of the original post was is the dun gene present in Welsh ponies.
 
criso said:
I think you would have still had confusion only people arguing the other way round and we already had palomino to describe the effect of cream on red.

And a completely new term would still have had the "well we always called it this and my horses papers say .."

The basic issue is bay dun and buckskin look similar visually because of totally different genes.
Click to expand...
I don't think so no. Specifically using the word Dun for the gene not found in Irish breeds has caused most of the issue.

Taking colloquial terms and applying them to specific genes was a dud move in general though I grant you. Both roan and dun cause problems because they were already established terms for how a horse appeared. If the underlying genes had been called Doris (dun) and Suzanne (cream), then there would have been no "oh is it REALLY a dun though" conversations, it would have just been "oh cool, do you know if yours is a Doris dun or a Suzanne dun".
 
criso said:
Could the grey hairs be roan with palomino. If you look at the tail line granddam has a bay roan sire but then hidden by grey in offspring.
Click to expand...

Possibly - as I said I know little about colour genetics even after spending an evening talking with a breeder very involved in the colour side of things, it fried my brain trying to get my head around it and walked away from dinner feeling like I knew nothing about anything :oops: 🤣
 
criso said:
This is the reason why a little accuracy can be useful.

It's fine for people on a livery yard to describe a buckskin as dun and talk chocolate but the terms are getting added to papers/passports and then on sites like allbreedpedigree.

The subject of the original post was is the dun gene present in Welsh ponies.
Click to expand...
I have two two horses at home without the roan gene with passports declaring them as roan.
I don't know what else you expect a vet to put on there, unless things like bay and chestnut also start to get genetically-accurate listings too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top