skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Can you believe it .............
- Thread starter skinnydipper
- Start date
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Oh my! I thought dogs that were positive could not go out with other dogs? Or be treated by vets?
Why would anyone want one. Wouldn’t you love it to be your neighbour. The everything must live at all costs mentality just gets worse.
Why would anyone want one. Wouldn’t you love it to be your neighbour. The everything must live at all costs mentality just gets worse.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
FFS why can't some people take responsibility?
misst
Well-Known Member
Who would take this dog on? Surely people can catch this too. I understand they cannot get into contact with other dogs? This person needs to be a hermit on an island with an excellent constitution and immune system! It's crazy. Poor dog shoved from pillar to post. Immoral in so many ways.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Nobody should take him on. He should be pts.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
So this vet nurse, does she advocate that there’s no need to isolate etc positive dogs? I CBA to read her page, I have to consider my blood pressure.
And how can a dog be only ‘just’ positive?
And how can a dog be only ‘just’ positive?
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I haven't read her page either. I saw that post and the one about the XL bully loose in town and I was totally pissed off and went to bed.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
It was too much for me as well
ArklePig
Well-Known Member
JFC. To use one of my father's phrases, a dog with a mallet up its arse knows what poor Benny needs.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Your dad has a way with words
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I've just braced myself and had a look. Take my advice - don't do it.
Parrotperson
Well-Known Member
I'm surprised DEFRA doesn't have rules in place for positive dogs not only because of the risk to humans (an old friend of mine caught it from his cattle many years ago and died) but because of the risk to cattle (and other livestock). Agreed. poor animal should be PTS.
Teaselmeg
Well-Known Member
They have found the dog a new home with another positive dog 
asmp
Well-Known Member
I confess I don’t know much about the condition as I’m not a dog owner but if she’s a vet nurse and is going against correct advice, can’t she be reported to someone?
nutjob
Well-Known Member
The problem is, it's just advice not the law. The UK also allows dogs to be imported from places like Eastern Europe which can be infected with Brucella canis. There are so called Romanian rescues which also bring dogs in from high risk areas without testing.
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skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
The way I see it if someone has adopted an overseas rescue and hasn't ensured the dog has been tested for diseases endemic in the country of origin prior to importation, and in the case of brucella canis tested again 3 months after importation, they are not bothered if their own dog has any of those diseases so they certainly aren't going to care if their dog infects my dog.
Dobiegirl
Well-Known Member
That dog has been here for 3.1/2 years so would probably have met a lot of dogs in that time. The first test which is usually done in house by the vet was negative but the 2nd carried out by the government lab was positive. There has been quite a lot of instances of false positive so if this was my dog I would be wanting another test done.
I have a Romanian rescue and she was tested about 2 years ago by my own vet and government lab luckily all negative, if she was positive pts was recommended although its not compulsory and my vet would continue to treat her.
So many dogs coming in either not tested or on falsified papers and APHA do not have the man power to stop them. I dont think it will be too long until rabies hits these shores, lack of money = lack of man power. A lot of these so called rescues cut so many corners and know the chances of being stopped is unlikely so continue on.
I have a Romanian rescue and she was tested about 2 years ago by my own vet and government lab luckily all negative, if she was positive pts was recommended although its not compulsory and my vet would continue to treat her.
So many dogs coming in either not tested or on falsified papers and APHA do not have the man power to stop them. I dont think it will be too long until rabies hits these shores, lack of money = lack of man power. A lot of these so called rescues cut so many corners and know the chances of being stopped is unlikely so continue on.
blackcob
🖖
If it’s the one I’m thinking of then she (temporarily?) removed herself from the RCVS register in protest.
louiseandsadie
Well-Known Member
Hello everyone,
I am the vet nurse who set up the page BrucellaCanisRVN so if you have any questions I’m happy to answer them. I’m late to the discussion, but it was drawn to my attention by a fellow forum member. In answer to your question, I did temporarily remove myself from the register, but I am now on the register so if you have any concerns, and you’re not satisfied that I have addressed your concerns satisfactorily you are within your rights to report me to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons if you feel that my conduct has fallen far short of that that could be expected of a registered veterinary nurse. They will then undertake a review of the case and decide whether there is a case to answer for. If you do have concerns, then by all means report me to the RCVS and let them investigate.
If you’re a member of the public and you want to complain: https://www.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/im-an-animal-owner-and-i-want-to-raise-a-concern/
And if you’re a member of the veterinary profession, and you want to complain or raise a note of concern: https://www.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/im-a-vet-professional-and-i-want-to-raise-a-concern/
Alternatively, you may wish to engage in dialogue with me to better understand my reasons for doing so, and why, 13 months after I began to raise my concerns, I’m still waiting for the veterinary profession to debunk my claims. it’s a very big step for any veterinary professional to make the decision to step off the register and in doing so I had to give up part-time work as a vet nurse so my decision probably cost me around £5000 in lost locum income. as you can imagine, nobody takes the decision to voluntarily give up that amount of money, unless they believe very strongly that what they’re doing is the right thing to do and throughout this process I have never once regretted my decision to do so. I feel very strongly that I have done more for animal welfare Since that point, then I ever did in the 25 years prior to that as a veterinary nurse or train a veterinary nurse. That is not denigrate what I did offer in that capacity, but I feel that it has been greatly surpassed by my actions over the last few months and when I finally tell the full story about what I’ve seen and heard and dealt with over this period I think there’s a lot of people that would be very shocked that in 2023 - to 2024, this has been allowed to happen. However, it has happened and for me, the most important thing that I can do is play my part in the damage limitation of what is followed . Anyway back to the comment about following correct policy . Far from me being in trouble for not following correct policy. I have watched as gradually both the government and the veterinary profession are taking on board concerns that I have raised rather than going steadfastly in the opposite direction. I anticipate that they will continue to move closer to that point. Indeed, one veterinary professional that originally announced me as a crackpot when I took that action has subsequently become one of my more valued contacts, taking on dogs with a positive status, but many other vet practices would not give any vet care to and working these up and ensuring that they get access to decent veterinary care. Another vet who ripped into me very early on in the process for being selfish and putting vets at risk has subsequently become another big supporter of mine and has told me that they’ve been converted to what I’ve said, and now advocate for others to follow. The situation is not as simple as some veterinary professionals would have you believe and I frequently pick up on problems, including one case where a dog was scheduled for euthanasia due to a positive result. The owner sent me the results as a last ditch attempt to save her dog, and when I looked at them, I realised that something was badly wrong. I explained my concerns to the owner and they then went and asked Chat GPT what they thought. That software also said what I was saying. I advised the client not to euthanise their dog , but instead get their vet to contact the APHA. The APHA subsequently confirmed that I (and Chat GPT) were correct And that there had been a manual data entry error, which had not been picked up by the vet or by the government laboratories. That is just one example of a dog that would’ve been erroneously killed. Last year within the government laboratories, there was a reagent error that resulted in around 10 dogs over a few weeks being erroneously reported to be positive. Two of those dogs were euthanised before the error was detected. no I don’t want to give you the impression that the government laboratories are making errors all the time because that would be exceptionally unlikely, but it’s certainly not as clear as people would like to think. In addition, there are some uncertainties in the validation data, uncertainties in what can be concluded of the results, and frequently the risk for BC poses is not only misrepresented but in some cases, owners are lied to. I was shocked myself and thought that must not be the case, so I started doing a mystery shopper with some veterinary practices to follow up on the claims made. So far, all of these mystery shoppers have supported the client and not the vet practice. Again, I don’t want you to go away from this thinking that veterinary professionals just lie to members of the public, but what I believe is happening is that it’s basically been like Chinese whispers and the threat that BC poses has just got exaggerated and twisted across multiple dimensions and grown a life all of its own. But just like it’s important to quell any rumour, that’s not founded in fact and it causing unnecessary damage, it’s necessary to do this in respect of Brucella Canis and the risk poses. I don’t want to say that it doesn’t pose any risk because that would be untrue and we do need to remain cognizant of the fact that this is a zoonotic infectious disease but the evidence doesn’t seem to support it being much of a threat. Indeed, we have plenty of other threats, posed by domestic dogs that outstrip BC, and yet we manage to continue to provide high-quality veterinary care to meet the preventative, routine, and emergency, medical, surgical and dental requirements of these dogs. And the same could be said for dogs that test positive for BC, particularly given, it’s looking likely that many of these would be false, positives or antibody positive only. The UK health security agency risk assess the threat ages ago and even higher risk procedures were considered negligible risk with appropriate PPE use, so we have to ask why these animals are being left suffering by professionals who both have the capacity to protect themselves and are trained to understand how to protect themselves using PPE and who entered the role with a commitment to animal welfare are failing realistically too, provide this care to a high enough standard to prevent suffering while still keeping the dog alive (most of whom do not have any clinical signs to suggest that they have BC) and well. But as before I’m more than happy to answer any questions.
It’s very easy to follow the herd, I recommend that people instead take a look at the evidence base. I’m happy to talk you through why I made the decision to advocate for these dogs and their owners but as I tell all my students, don’t just take my word for it, instead go back and scrutinise the primary evidence sources. I hope by the end of the discussions, you might have a better understanding of what’s happening, where the issues are sitting along with the impact that it’s having on animal welfare and human welfare. I don’t just take calls about animals in need. I’m also dealing with owners that are very traumatised in the face of what’s often a very disproportionate response to a pathogen that is very low risk to the majority of the population.
I work full-time and I have a very hectic schedule between currently putting in about 20 hours a week of volunteer work helping owners in this situation alongside running my small holding so please forgive me if I take a while to respond to your concerns but you may wish to take time to think through what your concerns are before posting, and then you can post them in one go and I will happily address those to the best of my ability. Thank you for your interest in the subject and I look forward to talking to you further.
Best wishes,
Louise
Otherwise known as Brucella Canis RVN
I am the vet nurse who set up the page BrucellaCanisRVN so if you have any questions I’m happy to answer them. I’m late to the discussion, but it was drawn to my attention by a fellow forum member. In answer to your question, I did temporarily remove myself from the register, but I am now on the register so if you have any concerns, and you’re not satisfied that I have addressed your concerns satisfactorily you are within your rights to report me to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons if you feel that my conduct has fallen far short of that that could be expected of a registered veterinary nurse. They will then undertake a review of the case and decide whether there is a case to answer for. If you do have concerns, then by all means report me to the RCVS and let them investigate.
If you’re a member of the public and you want to complain: https://www.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/im-an-animal-owner-and-i-want-to-raise-a-concern/
And if you’re a member of the veterinary profession, and you want to complain or raise a note of concern: https://www.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/im-a-vet-professional-and-i-want-to-raise-a-concern/
Alternatively, you may wish to engage in dialogue with me to better understand my reasons for doing so, and why, 13 months after I began to raise my concerns, I’m still waiting for the veterinary profession to debunk my claims. it’s a very big step for any veterinary professional to make the decision to step off the register and in doing so I had to give up part-time work as a vet nurse so my decision probably cost me around £5000 in lost locum income. as you can imagine, nobody takes the decision to voluntarily give up that amount of money, unless they believe very strongly that what they’re doing is the right thing to do and throughout this process I have never once regretted my decision to do so. I feel very strongly that I have done more for animal welfare Since that point, then I ever did in the 25 years prior to that as a veterinary nurse or train a veterinary nurse. That is not denigrate what I did offer in that capacity, but I feel that it has been greatly surpassed by my actions over the last few months and when I finally tell the full story about what I’ve seen and heard and dealt with over this period I think there’s a lot of people that would be very shocked that in 2023 - to 2024, this has been allowed to happen. However, it has happened and for me, the most important thing that I can do is play my part in the damage limitation of what is followed . Anyway back to the comment about following correct policy . Far from me being in trouble for not following correct policy. I have watched as gradually both the government and the veterinary profession are taking on board concerns that I have raised rather than going steadfastly in the opposite direction. I anticipate that they will continue to move closer to that point. Indeed, one veterinary professional that originally announced me as a crackpot when I took that action has subsequently become one of my more valued contacts, taking on dogs with a positive status, but many other vet practices would not give any vet care to and working these up and ensuring that they get access to decent veterinary care. Another vet who ripped into me very early on in the process for being selfish and putting vets at risk has subsequently become another big supporter of mine and has told me that they’ve been converted to what I’ve said, and now advocate for others to follow. The situation is not as simple as some veterinary professionals would have you believe and I frequently pick up on problems, including one case where a dog was scheduled for euthanasia due to a positive result. The owner sent me the results as a last ditch attempt to save her dog, and when I looked at them, I realised that something was badly wrong. I explained my concerns to the owner and they then went and asked Chat GPT what they thought. That software also said what I was saying. I advised the client not to euthanise their dog , but instead get their vet to contact the APHA. The APHA subsequently confirmed that I (and Chat GPT) were correct And that there had been a manual data entry error, which had not been picked up by the vet or by the government laboratories. That is just one example of a dog that would’ve been erroneously killed. Last year within the government laboratories, there was a reagent error that resulted in around 10 dogs over a few weeks being erroneously reported to be positive. Two of those dogs were euthanised before the error was detected. no I don’t want to give you the impression that the government laboratories are making errors all the time because that would be exceptionally unlikely, but it’s certainly not as clear as people would like to think. In addition, there are some uncertainties in the validation data, uncertainties in what can be concluded of the results, and frequently the risk for BC poses is not only misrepresented but in some cases, owners are lied to. I was shocked myself and thought that must not be the case, so I started doing a mystery shopper with some veterinary practices to follow up on the claims made. So far, all of these mystery shoppers have supported the client and not the vet practice. Again, I don’t want you to go away from this thinking that veterinary professionals just lie to members of the public, but what I believe is happening is that it’s basically been like Chinese whispers and the threat that BC poses has just got exaggerated and twisted across multiple dimensions and grown a life all of its own. But just like it’s important to quell any rumour, that’s not founded in fact and it causing unnecessary damage, it’s necessary to do this in respect of Brucella Canis and the risk poses. I don’t want to say that it doesn’t pose any risk because that would be untrue and we do need to remain cognizant of the fact that this is a zoonotic infectious disease but the evidence doesn’t seem to support it being much of a threat. Indeed, we have plenty of other threats, posed by domestic dogs that outstrip BC, and yet we manage to continue to provide high-quality veterinary care to meet the preventative, routine, and emergency, medical, surgical and dental requirements of these dogs. And the same could be said for dogs that test positive for BC, particularly given, it’s looking likely that many of these would be false, positives or antibody positive only. The UK health security agency risk assess the threat ages ago and even higher risk procedures were considered negligible risk with appropriate PPE use, so we have to ask why these animals are being left suffering by professionals who both have the capacity to protect themselves and are trained to understand how to protect themselves using PPE and who entered the role with a commitment to animal welfare are failing realistically too, provide this care to a high enough standard to prevent suffering while still keeping the dog alive (most of whom do not have any clinical signs to suggest that they have BC) and well. But as before I’m more than happy to answer any questions.
It’s very easy to follow the herd, I recommend that people instead take a look at the evidence base. I’m happy to talk you through why I made the decision to advocate for these dogs and their owners but as I tell all my students, don’t just take my word for it, instead go back and scrutinise the primary evidence sources. I hope by the end of the discussions, you might have a better understanding of what’s happening, where the issues are sitting along with the impact that it’s having on animal welfare and human welfare. I don’t just take calls about animals in need. I’m also dealing with owners that are very traumatised in the face of what’s often a very disproportionate response to a pathogen that is very low risk to the majority of the population.
I work full-time and I have a very hectic schedule between currently putting in about 20 hours a week of volunteer work helping owners in this situation alongside running my small holding so please forgive me if I take a while to respond to your concerns but you may wish to take time to think through what your concerns are before posting, and then you can post them in one go and I will happily address those to the best of my ability. Thank you for your interest in the subject and I look forward to talking to you further.
Best wishes,
Louise
Otherwise known as Brucella Canis RVN
Last edited:
Jenko109
Well-Known Member
***grabs the popcorn***
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Welcome back to the forum, lousiseandsadie.
Just a heads up, please could you use paragraphs in future. I started to wade though your very large block of text, soon got lost with it and gave up on reading it. So your message (whatever it is) is lost to me.
Just a heads up, please could you use paragraphs in future. I started to wade though your very large block of text, soon got lost with it and gave up on reading it. So your message (whatever it is) is lost to me.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Same. I’m sorry but it’s just a solid square of small text.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
one thing I did note is that chat gp is recommended as a diagnostic tool, that’s incredible, all vets will soon be redundant.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
It's not worth reading anyway but I'll get back to it later. At the moment I've got better things to do.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you could share some of the evidence base/primary evidence sources with us?
JBM
Well-Known Member
There being no paragraphs is a ridiculous reason to ignore someone
Hello everyone,
I am the vet nurse who set up the page BrucellaCanisRVN so if you have any questions I’m happy to answer them. I’m late to the discussion, but it was drawn to my attention by a fellow forum member. In answer to your question, I did temporarily remove myself from the register, but I am now on the register so if you have any concerns, and you’re not satisfied that I have addressed your concerns satisfactorily you are within your rights to report me to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons if you feel that my conduct has fallen far short of that that could be expected of a registered veterinary nurse. They will then undertake a review of the case and decide whether there is a case to answer for.
If you do have concerns, then by all means report me to the RCVS and let them investigate.
If you’re a member of the public and you want to complain: https://www.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/im-an-animal-owner-and-i-want-to-raise-a-concern/
And if you’re a member of the veterinary profession, and you want to complain or raise a note of concern: https://www.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/im-a-vet-professional-and-i-want-to-raise-a-concern/
Alternatively, you may wish to engage in dialogue with me to better understand my reasons for doing so, and why, 13 months after I began to raise my concerns, I’m still waiting for the veterinary profession to debunk my claims. it’s a very big step for any veterinary professional to make the decision to step off the register and in doing so I had to give up part-time work as a vet nurse so my decision probably cost me around £5000 in lost locum income. as you can imagine, nobody takes the decision to voluntarily give up that amount of money, unless they believe very strongly that what they’re doing is the right thing to do and throughout this process I have never once regretted my decision to do so.
I feel very strongly that I have done more for animal welfare Since that point, then I ever did in the 25 years prior to that as a veterinary nurse or train a veterinary nurse. That is not denigrate what I did offer in that capacity, but I feel that it has been greatly surpassed by my actions over the last few months and when I finally tell the full story about what I’ve seen and heard and dealt with over this period I think there’s a lot of people that would be very shocked that in 2023 - to 2024, this has been allowed to happen.
However, it has happened and for me, the most important thing that I can do is play my part in the damage limitation of what is followed .
Anyway back to the comment about following correct policy . Far from me being in trouble for not following correct policy. I have watched as gradually both the government and the veterinary profession are taking on board concerns that I have raised rather than going steadfastly in the opposite direction. I anticipate that they will continue to move closer to that point. Indeed, one veterinary professional that originally announced me as a crackpot when I took that action has subsequently become one of my more valued contacts, taking on dogs with a positive status, but many other vet practices would not give any vet care to and working these up and ensuring that they get access to decent veterinary care.
Another vet who ripped into me very early on in the process for being selfish and putting vets at risk has subsequently become another big supporter of mine and has told me that they’ve been converted to what I’ve said, and now advocate for others to follow. The situation is not as simple as some veterinary professionals would have you believe and I frequently pick up on problems, including one case where a dog was scheduled for euthanasia due to a positive result. The owner sent me the results as a last ditch attempt to save her dog, and when I looked at them, I realised that something was badly wrong. I explained my concerns to the owner and they then went and asked Chat GPT what they thought. That software also said what I was saying. I advised the client not to euthanise their dog , but instead get their vet to contact the APHA. The APHA subsequently confirmed that I (and Chat GPT) were correct And that there had been a manual data entry error, which had not been picked up by the vet or by the government laboratories.
That is just one example of a dog that would’ve been erroneously killed. Last year within the government laboratories, there was a reagent error that resulted in around 10 dogs over a few weeks being erroneously reported to be positive. Two of those dogs were euthanised before the error was detected. no I don’t want to give you the impression that the government laboratories are making errors all the time because that would be exceptionally unlikely, but it’s certainly not as clear as people would like to think.
In addition, there are some uncertainties in the validation data, uncertainties in what can be concluded of the results, and frequently the risk for BC poses is not only misrepresented but in some cases, owners are lied to. I was shocked myself and thought that must not be the case, so I started doing a mystery shopper with some veterinary practices to follow up on the claims made. So far, all of these mystery shoppers have supported the client and not the vet practice.
Again, I don’t want you to go away from this thinking that veterinary professionals just lie to members of the public, but what I believe is happening is that it’s basically been like Chinese whispers and the threat that BC poses has just got exaggerated and twisted across multiple dimensions and grown a life all of its own. But just like it’s important to quell any rumour, that’s not founded in fact and it causing unnecessary damage, it’s necessary to do this in respect of Brucella Canis and the risk poses.
I don’t want to say that it doesn’t pose any risk because that would be untrue and we do need to remain cognizant of the fact that this is a zoonotic infectious disease but the evidence doesn’t seem to support it being much of a threat. Indeed, we have plenty of other threats, posed by domestic dogs that outstrip BC, and yet we manage to continue to provide high-quality veterinary care to meet the preventative, routine, and emergency, medical, surgical and dental requirements of these dogs. And the same could be said for dogs that test positive for BC, particularly given, it’s looking likely that many of these would be false, positives or antibody positive only.
The UK health security agency risk assess the threat ages ago and even higher risk procedures were considered negligible risk with appropriate PPE use, so we have to ask why these animals are being left suffering by professionals who both have the capacity to protect themselves and are trained to understand how to protect themselves using PPE and who entered the role with a commitment to animal welfare are failing realistically too, provide this care to a high enough standard to prevent suffering while still keeping the dog alive (most of whom do not have any clinical signs to suggest that they have BC) and well. But as before I’m more than happy to answer any questions.
It’s very easy to follow the herd, I recommend that people instead take a look at the evidence base. I’m happy to talk you through why I made the decision to advocate for these dogs and their owners but as I tell all my students, don’t just take my word for it, instead go back and scrutinise the primary evidence sources. I hope by the end of the discussions, you might have a better understanding of what’s happening, where the issues are sitting along with the impact that it’s having on animal welfare and human welfare. I don’t just take calls about animals in need. I’m also dealing with owners that are very traumatised in the face of what’s often a very disproportionate response to a pathogen that is very low risk to the majority of the population.
I work full-time and I have a very hectic schedule between currently putting in about 20 hours a week of volunteer work helping owners in this situation alongside running my small holding so please forgive me if I take a while to respond to your concerns but you may wish to take time to think through what your concerns are before posting, and then you can post them in one go and I will happily address those to the best of my ability. Thank you for your interest in the subject and I look forward to talking to you further.
Reposted for paragraphs
Hello everyone,
I am the vet nurse who set up the page BrucellaCanisRVN so if you have any questions I’m happy to answer them. I’m late to the discussion, but it was drawn to my attention by a fellow forum member. In answer to your question, I did temporarily remove myself from the register, but I am now on the register so if you have any concerns, and you’re not satisfied that I have addressed your concerns satisfactorily you are within your rights to report me to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons if you feel that my conduct has fallen far short of that that could be expected of a registered veterinary nurse. They will then undertake a review of the case and decide whether there is a case to answer for.
If you do have concerns, then by all means report me to the RCVS and let them investigate.
If you’re a member of the public and you want to complain: https://www.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/im-an-animal-owner-and-i-want-to-raise-a-concern/
And if you’re a member of the veterinary profession, and you want to complain or raise a note of concern: https://www.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/im-a-vet-professional-and-i-want-to-raise-a-concern/
Alternatively, you may wish to engage in dialogue with me to better understand my reasons for doing so, and why, 13 months after I began to raise my concerns, I’m still waiting for the veterinary profession to debunk my claims. it’s a very big step for any veterinary professional to make the decision to step off the register and in doing so I had to give up part-time work as a vet nurse so my decision probably cost me around £5000 in lost locum income. as you can imagine, nobody takes the decision to voluntarily give up that amount of money, unless they believe very strongly that what they’re doing is the right thing to do and throughout this process I have never once regretted my decision to do so.
I feel very strongly that I have done more for animal welfare Since that point, then I ever did in the 25 years prior to that as a veterinary nurse or train a veterinary nurse. That is not denigrate what I did offer in that capacity, but I feel that it has been greatly surpassed by my actions over the last few months and when I finally tell the full story about what I’ve seen and heard and dealt with over this period I think there’s a lot of people that would be very shocked that in 2023 - to 2024, this has been allowed to happen.
However, it has happened and for me, the most important thing that I can do is play my part in the damage limitation of what is followed .
Anyway back to the comment about following correct policy . Far from me being in trouble for not following correct policy. I have watched as gradually both the government and the veterinary profession are taking on board concerns that I have raised rather than going steadfastly in the opposite direction. I anticipate that they will continue to move closer to that point. Indeed, one veterinary professional that originally announced me as a crackpot when I took that action has subsequently become one of my more valued contacts, taking on dogs with a positive status, but many other vet practices would not give any vet care to and working these up and ensuring that they get access to decent veterinary care.
Another vet who ripped into me very early on in the process for being selfish and putting vets at risk has subsequently become another big supporter of mine and has told me that they’ve been converted to what I’ve said, and now advocate for others to follow. The situation is not as simple as some veterinary professionals would have you believe and I frequently pick up on problems, including one case where a dog was scheduled for euthanasia due to a positive result. The owner sent me the results as a last ditch attempt to save her dog, and when I looked at them, I realised that something was badly wrong. I explained my concerns to the owner and they then went and asked Chat GPT what they thought. That software also said what I was saying. I advised the client not to euthanise their dog , but instead get their vet to contact the APHA. The APHA subsequently confirmed that I (and Chat GPT) were correct And that there had been a manual data entry error, which had not been picked up by the vet or by the government laboratories.
That is just one example of a dog that would’ve been erroneously killed. Last year within the government laboratories, there was a reagent error that resulted in around 10 dogs over a few weeks being erroneously reported to be positive. Two of those dogs were euthanised before the error was detected. no I don’t want to give you the impression that the government laboratories are making errors all the time because that would be exceptionally unlikely, but it’s certainly not as clear as people would like to think.
In addition, there are some uncertainties in the validation data, uncertainties in what can be concluded of the results, and frequently the risk for BC poses is not only misrepresented but in some cases, owners are lied to. I was shocked myself and thought that must not be the case, so I started doing a mystery shopper with some veterinary practices to follow up on the claims made. So far, all of these mystery shoppers have supported the client and not the vet practice.
Again, I don’t want you to go away from this thinking that veterinary professionals just lie to members of the public, but what I believe is happening is that it’s basically been like Chinese whispers and the threat that BC poses has just got exaggerated and twisted across multiple dimensions and grown a life all of its own. But just like it’s important to quell any rumour, that’s not founded in fact and it causing unnecessary damage, it’s necessary to do this in respect of Brucella Canis and the risk poses.
I don’t want to say that it doesn’t pose any risk because that would be untrue and we do need to remain cognizant of the fact that this is a zoonotic infectious disease but the evidence doesn’t seem to support it being much of a threat. Indeed, we have plenty of other threats, posed by domestic dogs that outstrip BC, and yet we manage to continue to provide high-quality veterinary care to meet the preventative, routine, and emergency, medical, surgical and dental requirements of these dogs. And the same could be said for dogs that test positive for BC, particularly given, it’s looking likely that many of these would be false, positives or antibody positive only.
The UK health security agency risk assess the threat ages ago and even higher risk procedures were considered negligible risk with appropriate PPE use, so we have to ask why these animals are being left suffering by professionals who both have the capacity to protect themselves and are trained to understand how to protect themselves using PPE and who entered the role with a commitment to animal welfare are failing realistically too, provide this care to a high enough standard to prevent suffering while still keeping the dog alive (most of whom do not have any clinical signs to suggest that they have BC) and well. But as before I’m more than happy to answer any questions.
It’s very easy to follow the herd, I recommend that people instead take a look at the evidence base. I’m happy to talk you through why I made the decision to advocate for these dogs and their owners but as I tell all my students, don’t just take my word for it, instead go back and scrutinise the primary evidence sources. I hope by the end of the discussions, you might have a better understanding of what’s happening, where the issues are sitting along with the impact that it’s having on animal welfare and human welfare. I don’t just take calls about animals in need. I’m also dealing with owners that are very traumatised in the face of what’s often a very disproportionate response to a pathogen that is very low risk to the majority of the population.
I work full-time and I have a very hectic schedule between currently putting in about 20 hours a week of volunteer work helping owners in this situation alongside running my small holding so please forgive me if I take a while to respond to your concerns but you may wish to take time to think through what your concerns are before posting, and then you can post them in one go and I will happily address those to the best of my ability. Thank you for your interest in the subject and I look forward to talking to you further.
Reposted for paragraphs
louiseandsadie
Well-Known Member
Of course, but it’s very wide discipline, so perhaps you’d like to think about some of the questions that you’d like answered and then I can sign point you in the right direction.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I hate wasting my time when I could be doing other things but needs must, I suppose.
But, oh dear, where to start?
Firstly, @louiseandsadie, please stop following me, it feels creepy.
Secondly I feel your time would be better spent educating would be adopters to try and prevent infected dogs being brought into the UK in the first place.
Some time ago somebody saw my posts trying to raise awareness of this disease and contacted me to share their story. They mistakenly thought I, too, had had an infected dog.
This is their heart breaking story. I have removed names and huge amounts of text to prevent identification.
You can imagine how upset I was to read this.
I read with extreme interest your post about Brucella Canis - I am so sorry you had to go through that. We did too. We adopted 4/5 month old ***** in May 2021 and she settled into life with us and our other resident dog beautifully. She began to have back pain and would cry getting off the sofa or down the step into the garden. She also had a weepy eye that came and went. This was in the July and in August we had blood tests results that showed she was positive for Brucella Canis.
Text removed.
I never had any further follow up from them, no support, no education to other adopters, no knowledge of if the other families are still potentially living with it and don't even know it. We had to all be tested as Public Health said it could lead to my children becoming infertile if they did test positive and of course our other dog. The wait for the blood tests was awful more for our dog than us as we knew we would have to take the same action if she was positive. It didn't bear thinking about. Our vets were brilliant and learnt a lot about Brucella Canis in the process. There policy is now not to take on a dog from overseas without having 2 negative blood tests 3 months apart. they are trying to educate potential adopters where they can which is something.
Telling my children was one of the hardest things I've had to do. I don't think the rescue charity understood or cared about the impact it had on us all. When I saw your post I couldn't believe it.
Text removed
I would suggest that there are many more of us who have been sidelined to hide the fact that dogs were being adopted and then euthanised. We haven't been able to go through the process of getting another dog since as it's been too painful to contemplate but I think we're getting there now.
I guess I am letting you know all this because I understand what you and your family have been through and appreciate that you have tried to educate others. Not everyone wants to listen or accept the situation, which is sad, but you have tried.
I have wanted to do something about the charity's negligence with this but never worked out quite what to do to raise awareness. Talking to people and warning adopters to get a blood test prior to adoption is the first step and the only one I've been able to do thus far. In some ways, we've needed to try and move on from it. However, I saw your post and just wanted to reach out.
I hope you're all doing great and thanks for sharing.
But, oh dear, where to start?
Firstly, @louiseandsadie, please stop following me, it feels creepy.
Secondly I feel your time would be better spent educating would be adopters to try and prevent infected dogs being brought into the UK in the first place.
Some time ago somebody saw my posts trying to raise awareness of this disease and contacted me to share their story. They mistakenly thought I, too, had had an infected dog.
This is their heart breaking story. I have removed names and huge amounts of text to prevent identification.
You can imagine how upset I was to read this.
I read with extreme interest your post about Brucella Canis - I am so sorry you had to go through that. We did too. We adopted 4/5 month old ***** in May 2021 and she settled into life with us and our other resident dog beautifully. She began to have back pain and would cry getting off the sofa or down the step into the garden. She also had a weepy eye that came and went. This was in the July and in August we had blood tests results that showed she was positive for Brucella Canis.
Text removed.
I never had any further follow up from them, no support, no education to other adopters, no knowledge of if the other families are still potentially living with it and don't even know it. We had to all be tested as Public Health said it could lead to my children becoming infertile if they did test positive and of course our other dog. The wait for the blood tests was awful more for our dog than us as we knew we would have to take the same action if she was positive. It didn't bear thinking about. Our vets were brilliant and learnt a lot about Brucella Canis in the process. There policy is now not to take on a dog from overseas without having 2 negative blood tests 3 months apart. they are trying to educate potential adopters where they can which is something.
Telling my children was one of the hardest things I've had to do. I don't think the rescue charity understood or cared about the impact it had on us all. When I saw your post I couldn't believe it.
Text removed
I would suggest that there are many more of us who have been sidelined to hide the fact that dogs were being adopted and then euthanised. We haven't been able to go through the process of getting another dog since as it's been too painful to contemplate but I think we're getting there now.
I guess I am letting you know all this because I understand what you and your family have been through and appreciate that you have tried to educate others. Not everyone wants to listen or accept the situation, which is sad, but you have tried.
I have wanted to do something about the charity's negligence with this but never worked out quite what to do to raise awareness. Talking to people and warning adopters to get a blood test prior to adoption is the first step and the only one I've been able to do thus far. In some ways, we've needed to try and move on from it. However, I saw your post and just wanted to reach out.
I hope you're all doing great and thanks for sharing.
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louiseandsadie
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your contribution.
By all means put the person in contact with me as I’m always prepared to publish all sides of the story as part of the page. I do of course verify information before doing so.
There is currently no evidence base to implicate Brucella Canis in causing infertility or pregnancy related issues. I understand that there was some worry that that might be the case based on the fact that some other species of Brucella species, which are considered to be more pathogenic, have been linked to some adverse pregnancy outcomes, but we don’t actually have any reports of this occurring as a consequence of Brucella Canis infection. There is nothing from case reports upwards. Indeed, the most recent government literature has removed that information, but even in the original risk assessment they flag that there is no evidence in respective BC and that they are qualitatively extrapolating from other species.
I suspect if the person that contacted you was to contact the local health protection team again and to ask them that same question they would get a different answer now and the fate of their dogs may have been different. Certainly I am getting reports back that some health protection assessors are saying off record that they also would not euthanise their dog and have been surprised that it’s being considered so the dynamic in this respect appears to be shifting to reflect our ongoing development and understanding of this disease. They routinely were doing risk assessments on every household that had a positive dog and for the last few months most reports come back that they’ve told the owners (even where there are people that are immunocompromised) that the risk is negligible. it should, of course be noted that these dogs are always positive only on the ELISA (indirect) and therefore of course may not even be infected anymore. I don’t have sufficient owner reports to be able to say what they would say for a dog that is also positive on the SAT (likely to have an active infection). Where I do have reports it’s been similar to the other situation I’ve described.
Probably the best thing to post people to is the governments own risk assessment for Brucella Canis as I suspect you’ll take more notice of guidance provided by human healthcare experts. The revised HAIRS Report 2023 that came out in September last year, following a risk review that also included lots of testing (400+, of which two tested positive: one was a veterinary professional who had no clinical signs, and was picked up on a screening, and one who was a member of the public who did have clinical signs and was immunocompromised) of owners and healthcare professionals that were considered to have been at higher risk of exposure, concluded that the risk to the general population was very low, and even where people had higher risk exposures (e.g. vets and owners of positive dogs) the risk to humans were still low.
The report can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...la-canis/hairs-risk-assessment-brucella-canis
That should provide useful starting point for understanding the current government position in terms of the risk, that BC poses to humans in the UK.
Thank you for your interest in finding out more.
By all means put the person in contact with me as I’m always prepared to publish all sides of the story as part of the page. I do of course verify information before doing so.
There is currently no evidence base to implicate Brucella Canis in causing infertility or pregnancy related issues. I understand that there was some worry that that might be the case based on the fact that some other species of Brucella species, which are considered to be more pathogenic, have been linked to some adverse pregnancy outcomes, but we don’t actually have any reports of this occurring as a consequence of Brucella Canis infection. There is nothing from case reports upwards. Indeed, the most recent government literature has removed that information, but even in the original risk assessment they flag that there is no evidence in respective BC and that they are qualitatively extrapolating from other species.
I suspect if the person that contacted you was to contact the local health protection team again and to ask them that same question they would get a different answer now and the fate of their dogs may have been different. Certainly I am getting reports back that some health protection assessors are saying off record that they also would not euthanise their dog and have been surprised that it’s being considered so the dynamic in this respect appears to be shifting to reflect our ongoing development and understanding of this disease. They routinely were doing risk assessments on every household that had a positive dog and for the last few months most reports come back that they’ve told the owners (even where there are people that are immunocompromised) that the risk is negligible. it should, of course be noted that these dogs are always positive only on the ELISA (indirect) and therefore of course may not even be infected anymore. I don’t have sufficient owner reports to be able to say what they would say for a dog that is also positive on the SAT (likely to have an active infection). Where I do have reports it’s been similar to the other situation I’ve described.
Probably the best thing to post people to is the governments own risk assessment for Brucella Canis as I suspect you’ll take more notice of guidance provided by human healthcare experts. The revised HAIRS Report 2023 that came out in September last year, following a risk review that also included lots of testing (400+, of which two tested positive: one was a veterinary professional who had no clinical signs, and was picked up on a screening, and one who was a member of the public who did have clinical signs and was immunocompromised) of owners and healthcare professionals that were considered to have been at higher risk of exposure, concluded that the risk to the general population was very low, and even where people had higher risk exposures (e.g. vets and owners of positive dogs) the risk to humans were still low.
The report can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...la-canis/hairs-risk-assessment-brucella-canis
That should provide useful starting point for understanding the current government position in terms of the risk, that BC poses to humans in the UK.
Thank you for your interest in finding out more.
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paisley
Well-Known Member
If the dogs are testing positive on the ELISA, are owners not also having the SAT done as well? What was it about the test results that caused you concern? Serological tests need a correctly submitted blood sample, could this have been factor? The tests are considered 92% accurate.
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