Can you ever cure nervous aggressive?

[twiggy2]

Having read the replies properly on the thread now it is clear that I have a different perspective to a lot of people about dog behaviour, particularly from rescue dogs.

You don’t like the behaviour - you remove the trigger. That’s YOUR job that you signed up to when you took the dog on. Sorry to quote a particular phrase you used FM but this isn’t “hard work” - it’s responsible dog ownership, and that includes responsibility to give your dog as good a life as you can manage.

ETA - I wrote this then deleted it because i felt it would come across too harshly. I have re-posted because I feel strongly about this

I agree with this, the poster is not the owner though.
It sounds like this dog is constantly being chucked out to sink or swim and without support she is sinking.
I don't think the dog needs putting to sleep, she needs consistency, support and to be shown good options.
It's not the dogs fault and she is not doing these things to make life difficult for everyone she just knows no different.

Sounds very much like nervous aggression isnt actually her main issue at all, but the fact that she cannot cope with the world in general nor with everyday life.

Im not one to jump to the "puppy farm product" conclusion but at the very least she has been very poorly bred - likely from substandard genetic stock, coupled with poor early care and socialisation.

You only have to look at the photo to tell there is something not right with her, and then pairing that with the description makes for very sad reading.

I wish people would do the right thing for these sort of dogs and put them out of their misery tbh

I am interested to know what yu see in the photo that tells you something is not right with her. I just see a soggy spaniel.

 

[skinnydipper]

I feel sorry for this little dog. She is a nervous dog who is having to deal with upheaval and stress and is trying to cope with situations which are way outside of her comfort zone.

She has recently been taken from her home and moved to 2 different environments and is without the support of her usual carers, it is not surprising she is having trouble coping. Even a confident dog would feel unsettled.

She needs consistency in a quiet, stable home where she can feel safe and hopefully once her carers move into their new home, this is what she will have.

I can't be bothered with this multi-quote business so this is addressing various people's comments.

I have to disagree with JillA. You cannot reinforce fear, it is an emotion not a behaviour.

I also disagree that she needs to be put to sleep. You work with the dog in front of you and not the dog you wish you had and with care and consideration there is no reason why she should not live a happy life within her limitations.

With patience, dogs can be conditioned to be comfortable with household appliances, brooms etc - if anyone would like any advice on how to achieve this I would be happy to explain what I did.

 

[{97702}]

Sorry to clarify - ‘you’ in my previous post was not intended to refer to FM in this instance, although obviously I did quite some words she used. ‘You’ is intended to mean the owner or keeper of the dog, whether that be a rescue, the poor little product of a puppy farm or any other dog.

I apologise for not making that clear

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Puss cat had several trainers, we fortunately found a gun dog specialist who helped us bring out the best in him, she tapped into his natural desire to retrieve and fine tuned this. I posted recently about his ability to ignore other dogs when he’s put in a sit. He will search for the dummy ignoring nearby dogs, but you’re screwed if an intrusive dog comes up to him and insists on trying to get in his face. He also used to be very poor with people and air snapped in his younger days.

We manage him very carefully, he won’t ever be ‘cured’, he has a lovely life and is super affectionate with anyone he knows. He’s a very happy little dog unless there’s a strange dog in his vicinity, he has a fabulous quality of life, but your relative’s spaniel sounds desperately unhappy. I’d want her sight checked as a priority. Poor little dog.

 

[kimberleigh]

I agree with this, the poster is not the owner though.
It sounds like this dog is constantly being chucked out to sink or swim and without support she is sinking.
I don't think the dog needs putting to sleep, she needs consistency, support and to be shown good options.
It's not the dogs fault and she is not doing these things to make life difficult for everyone she just knows no different.



I am interested to know what yu see in the photo that tells you something is not right with her. I just see a soggy spaniel.

No I know she isnt the owner, I've used "you" as the person who owns the dog or the human in general. Wasnt having a pop at the OP.

The fact that she is so dwarfed is what I meant by the photo showing something was amiss - likely poor genetics. Any dog of a specific breed which obviously deviates from the norm size/type/conformation wise usually can be put down to errors in its breeding

 

[Laura2408]

Having read the replies properly on the thread now it is clear that I have a different perspective to a lot of people about dog behaviour, particularly from rescue dogs.

You don’t like the behaviour - you remove the trigger. That’s YOUR job that you signed up to when you took the dog on. Sorry to quote a particular phrase you used FM but this isn’t “hard work” - it’s responsible dog ownership, and that includes responsibility to give your dog as good a life as you can manage.

ETA - I wrote this then deleted it because i felt it would come across too harshly. I have re-posted because I feel strongly about this

I agree with this to a point however sometimes it isn’t possible to remove all triggers. My puppy was raised with nothing but love and yet was terrified of everything and bit several people despite me micro managing within an inch of my life. I am certainly not inexperienced either but I can understand how people struggle.

 

[gunnergundog]

I know what I would do for this dog.

Yes, you can de-sensitise dogs to many things GIVEN the inclination, time and dedication of the owner - at least, such that they show an improvement if not general acceptance. This poor soul is 6 years old, been owned from a pup and it would appear that no attempt has been made to help her in this respect. (Sorry if wrong.) It also appears to me that providing her with the environment that she needs in order to have any quality of life is not a high priority for the owner. She also has yet more upheaval in front of her with the move to a new house.

In all honesty, I would either put to sleep now or re-home from the OP's to someone who has the skill and time to work with her and accept her for what she is and be prepared to make the pts decision if they fail to help her make the transition in her new home.

OP - I appreciate you are not the owner and don't wish to cause offence to your relatives.

 

[{97702}]

I agree with this to a point however sometimes it isn’t possible to remove all triggers. My puppy was raised with nothing but love and yet was terrified of everything and bit several people despite me micro managing within an inch of my life. I am certainly not inexperienced either but I can understand how people struggle.

I think in your case you made the right decision Laura, although I realise how hard it must have been for you. I had a horse PTS who had behavioural issues, he was so unhappy most of the time that it didnt seem fair asking him to carry on

 

[Fools Motto]

The fact that she is so dwarfed is what I meant by the photo showing something was amiss - likely poor genetics. Any dog of a specific breed which obviously deviates from the norm size/type/conformation wise usually can be put down to errors in its breeding

You are one of the first people who has actually clearly written what I have been trying to explain to the owners and OH about her 'looks'. About three or four people have said spaniels can vary in size, generally refering to dogs being much bigger, and some bitches being small. I get that. Our own is small, but in better proportion. But what most people we meet don't understand, she is not a cocker. I think people on here are more experienced than those out on the footpaths, but it's amazing over the years people saying, 'oh that's cocker rage', or 'don't see many liver and white cockers', or 'typical cocker'....

She has been 'quite good' today. Well behaved on morning walk with me. She didn't react to the toaster like she did yesterday, and has managed to walk past the bin without tucking her tail down and scooting off. She was polite with her food. I haven't had to mop the floor!!! However, I dropped a plastic juice bottle and that sent her into the next room in nano seconds... she went for another dog while on lead with OH, and she has got possesive over an old sock. I've told everyone to ignore her, but also give her space and don't threaten that space. I don't like her stare... I'm glad I don't have young children.

 

[CorvusCorax]

What help is she given? Genuinely?

 

[Clodagh]

I would guess, from my zero experience of 'problem dogs' that she is incredibly insecure, doesn't like being in charge but is in charge at home and therefore stresses about having to run the place. (In her eyes). I would gues she would improve with calm, consistent boundaries and rules.
All spaniels seem to tend to incontinent though, I didn't mop the floor yesterday either but only because I ignored Smut in the house all day and only spoke to her in the garden. Smut at least isn't frightened of things.

I had a very nervous kelpie x blue heeler who was a shy biter. She was the puppy hiding under the table when I went to view, as was her mother, but I was drunk and it seemed a good idea! I loved her and she was very loyal but required a lot of management. Mine wasn't scared of random noises though, just humans.

 

[skinnydipper]

Some dogs are bred for dwarfism, think Corgi, Basset, Scottish Terrier and so on. I do not think it predisposes them to fearful behaviour. In short (no pun intended), I do not think her short legs are in any way connected to her other issues.

Some dogs, be it through nature or nurture (or both) are anxious and fearful. I suspect she has always been out of her depth. I noticed you said she chased your late father's dog out of his own garden and she is the dog of your parents in law. She was a fearful dog taken into another dog's territory and she felt she had to be proactive in protecting herself.

Too much is asked of her. As I said before, she needs to live life within her own limitations and helped with her fearfulness and confidence issues. She needs to be able to look to her carers to "watch her back". Progress is often in baby steps but it is possible. I cannot stress enough that things need to be taken at the dog's pace. She will feel a huge relief when she knows she can look to her carers for support and guidance and that she does not have to make the decisions.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Agreed. At the moment it sounds a bit 'hit and hope', metaphorically speaking. When she has a 'good' day it's probably by accident rather than design.

 

[kimberleigh]

Some dogs are bred for dwarfism, think Corgi, Basset, Scottish Terrier and so on. I do not think it predisposes them to fearful behaviour. In short (no pun intended), I do not think her short legs are in any way connected to her other issues.

Some dogs, be it through nature or nurture (or both) are anxious and fearful. I suspect she has always been out of her depth. I noticed you said she chased your late father's dog out of his own garden and she is the dog of your parents in law. She was a fearful dog taken into another dog's territory and she felt she had to be proactive in protecting herself.

Too much is asked of her. As I said before, she needs to live life within her own limitations and helped with her fearfulness and confidence issues. She needs to be able to look to her carers to "watch her back". Progress is often in baby steps but it is possible. I cannot stress enough that things need to be taken at the dog's pace. She will feel a huge relief when she knows she can look to her carers for support and guidance and that she does not have to make the decisions.

The difference being is that those breeds are indeed bred for the traits! Springer spaniels are not...

The fact that this girl shows physical traits which are alien to her breed type would be a strong suggestion that she has been poorly bred.

Poor breeding tends to always throw up "temperament issues", but only the more severe will end up in obvious physical difference to the norm.

It is sad for the dog, as its never their fault. But I still stand by original opinion that its no life for any dog, having those sort of issues, and pts is always the kindest option

 

[PapaverFollis]

The only dog I personally knew with this level of temperament issue was a superbly bred pedigree dog, who was physically a fine breed specimen. His owners raised him very well and did everything right within the normal parameters of family life... and the breed is one which you would expect to be able to cope with a less than perfect upbringing anyway... but severe aggression issues still arose. The dog delivered hospital visit worthy bites on several occasions... he was so terrified of normal life and had numerous and not always manageable triggers.

 

[cbmcts]

She does seem to be a troubled little dog, not knowing if she is coming or going...

Man years ago I had a JRT that was a neurotic soul. Looking at her background it's no surprise - I got her from a shed on a travellers yard at 5 weeks old where she was half the size of the rest of the litter, covered in fleas, full of worms and with a huge hernia. I'd had a massive row with her owner about the lack of treatment for a filly of theirs that was ill which ended in me saying ' and what about those pups. Are you just going to leave them to die too?' I was told if I was that bothered take the little one so I did!

Luckily for her (and me) I already had a very dog savvy bitch who had come from a similar place who adopted her. All the pups life she was very nervous about nearly everything but she relied on me and the older dog to 'protect' her. The first year or so I tried really hard to do the usual socialisation and training before I realised I was flooding her by mistake and eased off. All her life we were led by what she was comfortable with and as she relaxed and trusted she did improve but TBH I spent 13 years rolling my eyes, sighing deeply and rescuing her from whatever pickle she was in But and this is the big but she was rock solid with people, could be a cow with other dogs - there were some that she hated and went for on sight - but always stuck with the other dog who was very obedient so could go off lead. Everything else we just worked round...

I have a giant breed now who has issues with strangers getting in his face or going for his collar, he will lunge and snap if put under pressure. He is managed after extensive obedience training by muzzling if strangers are going to have get close ie the vets and working to desensitise. Because of his size and the fact he has shown that he will put teeth on skin I'm aware that he could do serious damage but in everything else he is pretty easy. His issue is that someone had a go at Caesar Milaning him not that he is a nervous dog. Anything but really.