Can you help clear some things up for me?

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luckilotti

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Ok, without going into detail about what I’m being told from the stud, I want to clear a few things up so figured I would put it all as one post
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Washing Out – (I’ve just been quoted £60 for this by the vets – assuming she doesn’t need sedating!) I’ve been told to have this done the day she isn’t in season anymore, I will have about the next 3 days to have it done in??

Jabbing into season/coming into season – been told that there is an increased chance of twins as she was jabbed into season, but the stud thinks she was coming into season anyway? (she was scanned the week before being jabbed and had a 55mm follicle, hence vet said jab in a week)

At exactly how many days should I book her scan in for to check re the twins etc so that if there are twins, one can be snipped away? Also, this figure is from the last day she was covered? What is the time frame for snipping away a twin (she has had a long season this time)

Is there anything I can do to try and minimise the risk of her reabsorbing/thinking she is in foal? Ie, should I keep her away from my foal, away from my gelding who loves her etc?

Legally – does anyone know where I may stand if this stallion hasn’t had any mares in foal yet? He is advertised as ‘He has successfully covered several mares in this his first season. ‘ This is his first season yet it seems as if none are in foal yet! (didn’t start covering until late into this season apparently). The owner did say (months ago) that if she didn’t take, I could switch to another stallion, but their other 2 standing this season are not suitable for my mare, they will be standing another next year but again, it will be his 1st season.

Thank you
 
Is this the post I remember when the stud wouldn't let the mare live out and vet saying she wasn't in season even though she had a 55mm follicle?

I'm confused with what your vet is saying - you need to wait at least 10 days from the last ovulation until PG'ing a mare (at 55mm she's nearly there, so I can't see how this would fit in this time frame).
Washing out, I prefer to be done the day after insemination (if at all, it no fluid its not necessary and in some mares that put up fluid can produce even more of an inflammatory response).
You want to scan at 14 days to check for twins.

Legally, you stand absolutely nowhere......and the above means not a lot if the stallion is not fertile. Unfortunately though, the advice given by vet seems a little questionable so maybe its not the stallion's fault if he has nothing in foal! Which stallion is it? PM if you prefer.
 
"been told that there is an increased chance of twins as she was jabbed into season"

I think this one is also a myth, ( have you read through the breeding myths thread? ) we always pg our mares into season, the only one ever to twin is our T/B mare, saying that this year was the first year, 5th pregnancy that she hasnt twinned on!

I really feel for you as i am not sure i have much confidence in your vet or your stud from your previous posts
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Mares ovulate both in and out of season and also while they are pregnant as it hapens so unless there are other signs like odema in the uterus and a relaxed cervix to indicate that she was actually in season it would be a waste of time inseminating
 
Jeepers! Can't believe you're still going on this one - you certainly deserve a medal for perseverance.

Have read your previous posts and this one & tbh have a few nagging doubts about what you're saying - seems to be some conflicting info (re. size of follicles / jabbing into season etc....)

Rings alarm bells for me 'cos approx 15 yrs ago, when I was in my early 20's, my first experiences at attempting to breed from my old mare had some similarities as follows:
1) She went to them late 'ish in the season - prob end of June.
2) As soon as she was at stud I lost complete control over what happened & was concerned about poor communications from their end. (I'm not a 'pain in the bum' mare owner but expected some updates & got none)
3) It turns out that the stud vet saw my mare almost daily over the period of about a month. Did several IntraUterine 'washes' swabs & god knows what else which ended in a vet bill of approx £1k. I was never advised of any problems.
4) Stud 'said' they covered her naturally once (strangely without scanning first though, to ascertain ovulation - ?) but then dropped my mare back home mid Aug then cleared off on their summer hols. I got my vet to scan 2 weeks later & guess what - no baby!!!!

I (stupidly) paid a straight fee for their stallion which I will certainly NEVER, ever, ever do again!!! Absolutely gutted as you can imagine - I vowed I'd never breed again at all anyway. I'm sure they saw my inexperience and just took the p*ss out of me! It left me very cautious about entering into similar agreements again and also fairly phobic about vets! Saying that however, I have now bred a foal and am in the process of doing it once more but instead, chose to stick to trustworthy experienced people who have a similar (minimal veterinary intervention) ethos & people whom I hope, don't just see me as a walking cheque book!

I damn well hope that your wires have just got a bit crossed & they're not doing the same to you. Good luck with it all..........


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Ok, without going into detail...

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Will try to do the same. but can't promise anything!
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Washing Out – (I’ve just been quoted £60 for this by the vets – assuming she doesn’t need sedating!) I’ve been told to have this done the day she isn’t in season anymore, I will have about the next 3 days to have it done in??

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The purpose of a washout is, primarily to remove irritants from the mare's uterus (normally dead sperm cells). Irritants cause the production of fluid and inflammation, both of which must be almost totally cleared by the time the embryo drops from the oviduct into the uterus. You have 3-4 days from the time of ovulation to clear the inflammation. The lavage fluid must be put into the uterus, and removed fairly quickly... this is fairly difficult when the mare is no longer in season (and the cervix is closing/closed). Ideally, it should be performed 12-24 hours after covering/insemination. First day of diestrus for a washout? Doesn't sound right to me.

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Jabbing into season/coming into season – been told that there is an increased chance of twins as she was jabbed into season, but the stud thinks she was coming into season anyway? (she was scanned the week before being jabbed and had a 55mm follicle, hence vet said jab in a week)

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Sally is totally right there - mares do ovulate in and out of season, so the presence of a 55mm follicle alone means very little. My guess is either she wasn't in season, or this was an anovulatory haemorrhagic follicle (AHF). It's difficult to comment on whether or not the vet's recommendation was the correct one without more information.

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At exactly how many days should I book her scan in for to check re the twins etc so that if there are twins, one can be snipped away? Also, this figure is from the last day she was covered? What is the time frame for snipping away a twin (she has had a long season this time)

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14 days for the first one... should be able to spot them then. Can be pinched out at any point up to the heartbeat scan at 28 days. Those days should be counted from the day she ovulated, which the vet should know (or certainly should have been checking for). I'd probably go for 12 & 26 days after the last covering for the scans.

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Is there anything I can do to try and minimise the risk of her reabsorbing/thinking she is in foal? Ie, should I keep her away from my foal, away from my gelding who loves her etc?

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Stress can cause EED, so keeping her away from things that stress her may help - but only you will know what stresses her out! It's fairly pointless putting her on Regumate or anything like that, as the evidence for it working is fairly anecdotal, and may cause problems itself.

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Legally – does anyone know where I may stand if this stallion hasn’t had any mares in foal yet? He is advertised as ‘He has successfully covered several mares in this his first season. ‘ This is his first season yet it seems as if none are in foal yet! (didn’t start covering until late into this season apparently). The owner did say (months ago) that if she didn’t take, I could switch to another stallion, but their other 2 standing this season are not suitable for my mare, they will be standing another next year but again, it will be his 1st season.

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This is an interesting one... but I would imagine that their is some sort of OFT regulation on false advertising, which is what they have done. Unfortunately, this is one of the downfalls of natural covering with young stallions... you have no idea what is actually going into the mare. I think it's certainly worth you investigating, possibly with trading standards, about the legality of advertising a stallion in a way that suggests he is fertile when in fact his fertility is unknown.

Hope that helps.
 
Andypandy, I am sure OFT would have a field day with some claims made
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although I guess with a stallion in his first season mare owners really are taking that risk upon themselves? The stallion's owners say he has 'successfully covered' which I would assume is open to interpretation....successfully meaning he has actually managed to cover them
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Thanks guys - still confused!

The vet i spoke to today i have never delt with before, (also foreign, breeds back home but i imagine things do differ slightly with countries opinions etc) the vet who scanned my mare is away. When he scanned her and saw the follicle, she wasnt in season, he suggested that maybe she 'thought' she was infoal or maybe just hadnt shown her season. The stud is meant to be covering her until she is no longer is season, hence the washout the day she doesnt show she is in season. Apparently she has been grouchy today when the tried her so i guess she is going out. They have promised to call me as soon as she doesnt appear to be in season so i can arrange the vet etc. It would have been the 24th July she was last scanned. (with the follicle which vet thought we would miss) Jabbed into season 8 days later on the 1st August, the girl at the stud didnt seem exactly sure of what day she came into season but she was what sounds like coming into season on thursday (she was covered then but apparently the last few days have been more 'up for it').
I think it sounds as is if it is worth me having her washed out. My plan is to collect her as soon after the call as i can and call in at the vets en-route home for her to be washed out there.

I promise, i will tell people which stud/stallion i have gone to once i have got things sorted - i just dont want to be complaining about them and they find out whilst my mare is still there which i am sure you can understand.

I imagine legally i cant do anything, as a lot of what they have said i have no evidence of
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horsey people! some of them really do my head in!!!!!
 
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Washing Out – (I’ve just been quoted £60 for this by the vets – assuming she doesn’t need sedating!) I’ve been told to have this done the day she isn’t in season anymore,

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Are these the vets that charged £120 for a scan or am I mixing up cr*p vets? Looking at my last vet's bill, I was charged £15 for a washout (obviously there'd be a share of visit fee.)

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been told that there is an increased chance of twins as she was jabbed into season, but the stud thinks she was coming into season anyway? (she was scanned the week before being jabbed and had a 55mm follicle, hence vet said jab in a week)

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Increased chance of twins from being PG'd - I don't think so. IME, some mares tend to twin often, some don't. Daughters of mares who twin tend to twin themselves. Daughters of mares who've never twinned, generally don't twin either. (Although I never say never!)

To wait a week to jab a mare with a 55 mm follicle??? WHY? She'll have ovulated by then but probably won't be ready to short cycle. A 55 mm follicle is about to pop!

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At exactly how many days should I book her scan in for to check re the twins etc so that if there are twins, one can be snipped away?

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Scanning for twins should be done BEFORE day 17 after last cover. It IS possible to pinch a twin after that but very often they will implant so close together that you can't pinch one without the other one going too. Before day 17 they are floating around - still often close together - but it is easier to 'bump' them apart and pinch one without compromising the other.

My mares twin for England so I've become a bit of an expert on this subject!
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Is there anything I can do to try and minimise the risk of her reabsorbing/thinking she is in foal?

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Mares don't THINK they're in foal - they're in foal or they're not! An early pregnancy can be put at risk by stress, but TBH I think ANY chance of pregnancy may already have been badly compromised by stud incompetence!

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Legally – does anyone know where I may stand if this stallion hasn’t had any mares in foal yet?

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I think you might be on a hiding to nothing with any claim of misrepresentation. Successfully covered - it could be argued - means he managed to 'do the job' - NOT that it had a successful outcome. It's pretty grey, but ..... Personally, I doubt if the stallion is to blame. MOST young stallions have adequate semen to impregnate a mare, given half a chance! Proving the stud management is cr*p might be hard (although I know what I think!)
 
Same vets that charged me a hefty sum for the scan! I've decided to flit between the two vets though as the other vets will do a wash out for £47 including call out, plus it looks as if i have a coupld of liveries to share the call out with so will work out even cheaper.
they have said she is still in season this morning - and they have covered her again! they plan to try her at 8.30am thursday and call me is she isnt in season. BUT i think i am just going to arrange to collect her tomorrow morning/lunchtime and get the vet in the afternoon to wash her.
i've pretty much decided that when she comes home, that is it for this year. I can then wait and see if any other the others he has been used on are infoal and rethink my options of if i try im again or swap to another stallion.
(hubby did a quick rough tally yesterday about what its costing and wasnt a happy bunny! he made it £1400 but i am sure its not that much yet!)
 
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