Wagtail
Horse servant
What a fantastic idea! Thank you!
Can you live with an explosive horse?
- Thread starter Wagtail
- Start date
What a fantastic idea! Thank you!
philamena
Well-Known Member
Hmm, tricky isn't it. I think the thing with thermal imaging is it'll tell you if there's a soft tissue problem or the soft tissue is responding / reacting to a deeper issue, so it may well indicate an area that is inflamed / dealing with an injury of some kind but which only becomes a problem when pressed, for example... Some vets are now using it in house, but I think people on here often recommend what used to be The Inner Picture. £250 sounds about right... though probably a fair bit less if you just want pics of the area you know is the problem...
In terms of the ulcers - I think we can sometimes have higher than merited expectations of quick, dramatic changes on omeprazole, with all these lucky souls who have horses change completely in the space of days. Mine's very slow to respond - she's needed almost the full month this time, and the addition of antepsin (worth asking your vet for a script under the cascade system, works out about £15 for a week's dosage this way). She also needed some time spent getting her re-used to being touched on her reactive areas because she hangs on to the memory with a vice like grip
And some need antibiotics, but hopefully yours doesn't if they seemed to get better last time. I'd probably give Donna a ring - I'm sure she's dealt with horses which display problems only erratically and I'm pretty sure her hubby's a horse behaviourist too, so you'd get input from that angle too... ?
ETA - love the video idea
they never play ball when you need them to!
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cptrayes
Well-Known Member
He was fine all the time he was on omeprazole. He exploded exactly when acid bounceback would have had time to do its worst. Save your money. Put him back on omeprazole before you do anything else.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I was going to send him to her at the time he was diagnosed with kissing spines, as at that time we thought that was the reason for his behaviour, and he had some more obvious problems in that he was unable to canter on a circle etc. So something to work with. In the end I sent him to Rossdales for the operation. This cured all his gait problems and he would now pass any vetting (if he didn't have one of his spats). I did speak with Donna at length at the time and she wanted him BEFORE he went to Rossdales, which the insurance were not going to pay for. However, it would certainly be something I would consider for him if I don't get anywhere with him at home.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I missed that on the thread I thought omperazole did not affect the explosions if that's the cause wagtail I would put him back onit for six weeks and see if you have any incidents then take it off him if they return you have narrowed the field considerably.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Hmm, tricky isn't it. I think the thing with thermal imaging is it'll tell you if there's a soft tissue problem or the soft tissue is responding / reacting to a deeper issue, so it may well indicate an area that is inflamed / dealing with an injury of some kind but which only becomes a problem when pressed, for example... Some vets are now using it in house, but I think people on here often recommend what used to be The Inner Picture. £250 sounds about right...
In terms of the ulcers - I think we can sometimes have higher than merited expectations of quick, dramatic changes on omeprazole, with all these lucky souls who have horses change completely in the space of days. Mine's very slow to respond - she's needed almost the full month this time, and the addition of antepsin (worth asking your vet for a script under the cascade system, works out about £15 for a week's dosage this way). She also needed some time spent getting her re-used to being touched on her reactive areas because she hangs on to the memory with a vice like grip
I'd probably give Donna a ring - I'm sure she's dealt with horses which display problems only erratically and I'm pretty sure her hubby's a horse behaviourist too, so you'd get input from that angle too... ?
Thanks. I know when he reacts it is genuine. Then it takes him a few weeks to get over the mental anticipation of it. That is where we are at again now. He is anticipating the pain, but he soon gets over that with patience and advance/retreat.
Yes, he is back on the full dose again now. I had put him on it for a month and then was weaning him off it for the following month. He was still having one sachet a day at the time he had his 'explosion'. But maybe he needs longer. Maybe the ulcers hadn't healed properly. He was also kicking his feed over and so perhaps didn't get all of the meds. I am being more careful now.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
How long is it since he had an gastroscope ?
Wagtail
Horse servant
He was never scoped. I asked the vet about having him done and he said he really didn't have any symptoms of gastric ulcers. So I decided to just treat him myself with Abprazole from Abler. Within days he was much better and not sensitive or anxious around the girth area at all. I kept him on the full dose for a month and was tacking him up and riding him without problems. He was totally chilled. Then just as I was weaning him off the abprazole he had a total freak out just after saddling.
So I don't know for sure he has ulcers. It could have been a red herring and a coincidence. No point in scoping him now as he's been back on the treatment so they would be clearing up again.
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
Wagtail - I would try the Abprazole again and if you establish he has ulcers please get him scoped. For the sake of £180 it is worth it. I have a friend whose horse had to be pts due to bleeding ulcers and he didn't show any sign other than a slight lack in performance. So you just cannot know how bad they are and if he has them and they have returned that quick - ask yourself why? He could have another problem and the ulcers are secondary or the ulcers could be a serious problem. Sorry not trying to worry you unnecessarily.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
That's one ofthe issues with ulcers I think half the time we are treating them they are occuring because of something esle which makes it very hard to tease out what's going on.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Cost would not be a problem. He is insured for vets fees and ulcers would be covered as a separate condition to the KS. The only reason I just decided to treat him myself was because the vet was unconvinced that was his problem. He said he thought it would be to do with his KS even though he had had the op. But I know one thing for sure, and that is his pain is not coming from his back. He has absolutely no issues with someone riding him, so long as he has accepted the girth that day.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Yes. We have a mare here that was treated several times for ulcers (had been scoped clear after each treatment). Now her insurance has run out and the owner spent a further £2k on gastroguard before discovering abguard. The first treatment with the abguard cured them again and we were riding her without issues. But the problem came back. She has now been on the abguard for 8 weeks and she is getting worse if anything. She is totally unridable. She has had a full lameness work up and no problems found. Back is fine. She's had a foal so I'm now wondering if she has an issue with her ovaries. She was scanned before being put in foal and no issues found then. We are at a total loss as to why she is not responded to treatment for ulcers this time. Does the effect of omeprazole wear off?
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
I suppose it's a hard call for the vet - they don't want to waste your insurance money, but the vet should know that ulcers are a very common stress side effect to pain and also that some horses show few symptoms.
The thing that would worry me is why they should be present again and the unknown severity of them.
The thing that would worry me is why they should be present again and the unknown severity of them.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I don't know if it wears off but I know I had one that had thousands spent on gastroguard and though the ulcers cleared on treatment they returned and got worse and worse she had no risk factors for ulcers what so ever her behaviour was biarzze and dangerous and getting worse I had her PTS ,life is too short.
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
^^ This exactly. Ulcers should not be recurring constantly unless the horse is in an extremely stressful or inappropriate environment. To me ulcers are symptomatic of something else.
This is why holistic vets like to have the horse at their premises for a few weeks - they do a full assessment and get to the root cause of the problem.
I remember being told a story by my holistic vet about a horse with hock joints that a vet wanted to inject and the owner refusing sending the horse to the holistic vet who through assessment found a bladder problem, which caused the hock lameness. Horse was sound for several months then problem returned - holistic vet tracked back bladder problem to a further kidney problem, which again once treated solved the other problems.
Wagtail
Horse servant
It is incredibly frustrating! Sorry to hear about your horse, especially after putting so much into treating them. Both horses here are certainly not dangerous. Not for every day handling. Both seem happy and healthy in the field. Trouble is, both are only 11 years old. It's a long time to retire them! When my boy is okay with the girth, he is totally relaxed being ridden. He is the only TB I have known whose ears go all floppy when you ride him. He is incredibly light to ride off the leg and carries himself really well. It is just the bloomin' girthing. If I do not have another issue whilst he is on the full dose of abprazole, then I guess I will know that it is ulcers. But what is causing them? Especially when he's out 24/7? Maybe he does have some residual pain somewhere that he hides well? Oh well, I will persevere for now. If he gets bad again so that I know he will show the symptoms to a vet, then that will be my first port of call.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Any idea how to get the insurance to pay for this? They seem quite happy to shell out for conventional treatments, but won't entertain holistic treatments unless they are part of an overall conventional route.
YasandCrystal
Well-Known Member
Any idea how to get the insurance to pay for this? They seem quite happy to shell out for conventional treatments, but won't entertain holistic treatments unless they are part of an overall conventional route.
I was lucky - my insurers covered 'alternative treatments' for up to 20% of my max claim allowed - so £1,000 in my case. I used £4,000 on Newmarket
then around £400 on physio and my bill for sending my horse to Donna at that time for 2 weeks was just over £400, so I was within my budget.My conventional vet recommended Donna to me - because my horse had been to Newmarket - was seen by the physio several times and then he started getting 'grumpy' again. He was previously very aggressive which is how I knew something was badly wrong.
My vet referred on the basis that Donna is qualified in acupuncture also so could offer 'alternative pain relief'. In the event Donna mobilised my boy's sacrum as a qualified osteopath also. So maybe you could ask for a referral for 'pain management' ?? Donna is a conventionally qualified vet as well as an osteopath and acupuncturist.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I was lucky - my insurers covered 'alternative treatments' for up to 20% of my max claim allowed - so £1,000 in my case. I used £4,000 on Newmarket
My conventional vet recommended Donna to me - because my horse had been to Newmarket - was seen by the physio several times and then he started getting 'grumpy' again. He was previously very aggressive which is how I knew something was badly wrong.
My vet referred on the basis that Donna is qualified in acupuncture also so could offer 'alternative pain relief'. In the event Donna mobilised my boy's sacrum as a qualified osteopath also. So maybe you could ask for a referral for 'pain management' ?? Donna is a conventionally qualified vet as well as an osteopath and acupuncturist.
So really, I think I need to get him seen by my vet again, but I want him to be able to witness the problem first hand, or if I can at least get it on video. I think the way insurance works is that you have to go the conventional route first. I expect that could mean a full investigation again and perhaps a bone scan. I have to think with what this horse has been through already whether it is a route I wish to take with him. He had an op on his hock to start with, then injections into his hocks, then into his spine, then the kissing spine operation. He has had a lot of pain in his life, and it is not surprising if he has ulcers. But this explosive issue has been with us all along. I wish now he had had a bone scan at the time he went for his KS op. Obviously, the best thing would be if the insurance would just let me send him to Donna Blinman. I have spoken to Rossdales again about him, regarding this latest development. I spoke to Sarah Boyes Smith who was adamant that it would not be ulcers causing his problem. She thinks it is remembered pain from his KS. Much as I really rate Sarah and she would always be my number one diagnostic vet that I would send any horse to, I don't agree on this occasion, as I know my boy, and this is actual genuine pain. It is not in his head. He does get jumpy for a while after he has an episode, but he does get over it and is not anticipating the pain until the next time it happens.
Flame_
Well-Known Member
This might be one of those things that comes down to, vets don't truely understand it yet. There is something wrong with violently girthy horses, horses prone to ulcers and prone to colic, like now how everyone knows horses who keep getting lami all have some degree of cushings/EMS predisposing them and treating the foot pain is treating a symptom. That's not to say we didn't already know lots we could do to prevent it with management, but it has been the key to really understanding the problem. There will come a time when someone finds out what it is that causes the problem you are having, and hopefully finds a way to really do something about it, but we're not there yet IMO.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Very wise words. I know if I was giving advice regarding my issue, my honest advice would be to throw in the towel. Keep him as a field ornament, or send him to the blood bank, but not keep trying to get to the bottom of his problem for the sake of being able to enjoy riding him. Easy advice to give if I wasn't personally involved.
philamena
Well-Known Member
Completely agree with this. We're dealing with this at a specific moment in the horse world's education on these issues and knowledge is improving all the time. Even in the year and a bit since I had my first horse diagnosed the level and breadth of understanding generally has increased many times over. I imagine (hope!) we'll look back in x years and remember the time when we hadn't yet got a handle on these things.