Can your barefoot TB tolerate grass?

angelish said:
ok then that me told :)

horses were designed not to eat grass after all and need to be kept in a grassing muzzle for half the day with the whole blocked up :eek: so he can't drink either
so his gut is designed to be empty half the day too ,even though he looses weight anyway


well i think ill just keep nailing them terrible steel shoe's on mine and let him be happy eating grass and being able to have a scratch with his mates in the field and have a drink whenever he feels the need to even though thats not what he was designed to do
Click to expand...

I don't believe that you are so short of brainpower that you cannot imagine how to trickle feed a horse who has no grass Angelish. OR why you think no grass means no social interaction - you can turn out on non grass areas you know.

Mind you, you obviously don't know what a grazing muzzle looks like either, and that water will pour in the sides and they drink fine in them even when the bottom hole is blocked up.

What would you have done with mine - allowed him to go for his lethal injection appointment, that was cancelled when I took him on? Shoes were not an option, he has a diagnosis of navicular disease, caused by shoeing weak feet.

Please note that you are the only one calling shoes evil. We are not, even though in my case they nearly killed the horse.
 
barehoofhannah said:
Are you on the equine Cushings and insulin resistance yahoo group? It's world wide got thousands of members. They even had their own conference in USA this year, so you can search and find the website which will lead you to the yahoo group. I've got the safer grass CDs/power points if you want to pm me i can drop you my phone number is you want to know more about them. Juliet Getty does some good telephone seminars which you can download and listen to on an mp3 whilst doing chores, she's doing a laminitis one soon. Have you had your hay tested? If you can find some forage that tests really low for sugars you could soak for an hour to reduce further and *may* be able to have that as free forage in the field providing the sugars low enough. If they could eat at piles of that in a wide holed muscle that may work, best wishes, hang in there, Hannah
Barefoot can be a lot harder work as you literally do see the bare truth and any problems are visable but this has got to be healthier for the horse.
Click to expand...
Hi Hannah, yes I have been a member since 2007 and this is why I don't want him to have any grass. I followed their advice and protocols and this is what my management of him is based on. He does have other physical issues which are made worse by sugar and on the whole, he is just much better off grass totally, otherwise he becomes footy.
The haylage here is cut very late, this batch was cut nearly into October
so it should be practically zero sugar! I know it will have some;) I'm feeding him Metabalance with Soft Soak, Devils Claw, approx 200g Linseed, a big hadful of Graze on Gold (less than 8% sugar) and a couple of small handfuls of grass nuts to tempt him. I've just cut down on the GN becausse he is eating very well over the last month, before he was leaving some of every feed. I top all that with Fibre Digester from Equimins and a small heaped scoop of charcoal as his poos have been a bit sloppy of late.
I feel as if I am doing almost everything possible but his feet are still going backwards again, toes going forwards and frogs thrushy again:( This time last year he hardly had any grass and his feet were better.
Thanks for your input:)
 
M_G said:
I have quoted all of these because I really cant understand this whole my horse must be unshod at all costs attitude.. What ever happened to doing whats best for the HORSE.
Click to expand...

I will assume that you can understand why a horse who is (effectively) a type II diabetic cannot be allowed to eat grass, and why someone would do everything that they could to save a horse with navicular, which is normally relatively easily resolved with the shoes removed.

So lets leave those extremes out of it and stick with horses which are footie without shoes on if the are allowed too much grass.

Your solution is to shoe the horse.

Would you comment on my earlier point? The footiness is caused by toxins in the bloodstream coming from incorrect digestion in the hind gut. They cause damage to the laminae but they also affect the whole horse, notably the liver. There are horses which tie up on exercise after chemical wormers when they have too much grass, and horses who get sweet itch when eating grass that they do not get if removed from it.

Given that is the case, can you see why some of us would not want to mask lameness with shoes and leave the toxins circulating, when we can remove the toxins from the horse, resolving liver/skin/pain-related-behaviour isses by giving a horse a diet more akin to the scrub that it was genetically designed to eat?

Incidentally then allowing it to grow strong enough feet to work happily without shoes.
 
M_G said:
Good sensible advice ^^


WTF^^



Very true TB's are a man made breed designed to run ^^

I have quoted all of these because I really cant understand this whole my horse must be unshod at all costs attitude.. What ever happened to doing whats best for the HORSE.

My 2 are unshod 1 is a field ornament the other is about to be re-backed after a winter turned away & if he should ever be sore or wear his hoof too quickly then he will be shod because I will not cause him pain for the sake of a set of shoes.
Click to expand...

I AM doing what's best for the horse, don't you think I feel the meanest owner ever not wanting to see him enyoying lovely Dr Green?? But for MY horse, it would be like letting my child loose in a sweet shop everyday, all day:(
He was diagnosed with navicular twelve years ago - many horses with owners with your attitude to shoeing would be dead long ago. After taking his shoes off to save his life, we had two or three years of hacking and competing before the lush green grass ruined his health i.e. depressed, off his feeds, foot pain, skin problems etc etc and then diagnosed with Cushings - and so I was forced to take him off it, would you have done the same, or would you have just had yours shot?
 
Last edited:
Late cut hays and haylage might be lower in sugar but sadly the only way to know for sure is to have it tested for sugar and carb levels. Haylage just doesn't seem to suit some horses and I've recently begun to understand it could be the higher acidity upsetting the hind gut. If you can't switch to soaked hay do feed some gut support to help combat the acidity of the haylage. I'm not sure what may be best myself.

Please don't turn him out with a sealed muzzle. It would be better he had some grass than periods of nothing. Some deft horses can manage to eat soaked hay and haylage through the muzzle. :D

Sorry if I've missed it but mineral balance is something else to consider. It really does sound this yard isn't flexible enough for his needs... x

ps. My horses were all off grass for six months last year in a big varied yard eating soaked hay. They all did very well on it and I got weight under control in a fatty, hooves much improved and they were calm and settled. A field is still an enclosure and if it causes serious health issues it can become a death trap!
You can only cover up serious grass issues for a limited period of time with shoes before breakdown. Barefoot you have immediate feedback of the effects of any changes. This is important and can be vital for cushings and IR horses
 
Last edited by a moderator:
havent read all the posts but just wanted to reassure people that some wont be affected by it................CS is fine, he's probably not on a very BF friendly diet (dairy grass, haylage, conditioning feed) but is rock crunching sound on all footing :)
 
Oberon said:
Ignoring some posters, who have don't appear to be able to contribute anything helpful to the OP
blahblah.gif


There is a time and a place for shoes - but they aren't the only answer and they shouldn't replace the appropriate care for a metabolically challenged horse.

Have you got the minerals balanced?

This may provide an extra bit of leeway with the grass?

Some boots to keep him comfortable enough to exercising during the danger times may help too.
Click to expand...

Sorry Oberon I missed your post, I haven't had diet balanced at this yard but am feeding Metabalance. I tried Pro Hoof but not sure if the extra Mg in that gave him runny poos??
I have boots and pads and used them when ground was frozen but can't when it's muddy as he has a SL problem and they pull on his legs too much:(
 
Nits is fine on it and so is BH (WBxTB so basically a TB). The only time she was footy was the week after the grass was fertilised. Otherwise she is absolutely fine. He is always fine.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
havent read all the posts but just wanted to reassure people that some wont be affected by it................CS is fine, he's probably not on a very BF friendly diet (dairy grass, haylage, conditioning feed) but is rock crunching sound on all footing :)
Click to expand...
This is so true. Very sensitive horses are difficult to manage. Those not sensitive are far more common. :)
 
I think some of the comments have been quite harsh to you! You are obviously doing the right thing by your horse and muzzling and restricting grazing because of lami, I see this as being responsible! Whether hes barefoot or not isnt really the issue!

I would stick with the muzzle, maybe not ideal for some but atleast you are making an effort to reduce the grass he has assess too.

You said he has cushings? Is he treated for this? Can the vet maybe advise something?
 
angelish said:
:confused: why don't you just put shoe's on him and allow him to eat grass as he was designed to do ? :confused:
Click to expand...


unfortunately there is just a tiny flaw in your argument. If he is footsore on grass without shoes then that is a warning sign. If you put shoes on and put him out on the grass he doesn't go footsore next time, he is quite likely to go into full blown laminitis. Unfortunately, due to the masking effect of the shoes, you don't notice it is full blown lammy until too late and the damage is done.

Muff, my haffy is exactly the same. I have no choice and he has to stay off grass completely. The risk is just too great. I ride him every day to exercise him although I am fortunate that he is able to wander 24/7 in the yard and not be stabled. I put him on the field each day with a pony to exercise him and if necessary stand in the centre with a lunging whip to keep them moving.
Not much help I'm afraid. :)
 
My IDx always has a problem when the spring grass comes, she's either in a muzzle all day (from about 7am to about 5.30/6 when I get down after work, or I bring both horses in during the day and turn them out at night. They both quite like coming in, as they're away from the flies and out of the heat. She's 17 this year, been barefoot about 18 months and when she was shod her shoes used to always fall off in spring but I didn't realise what it was, and no farrier ever said it might be grass.

My other horse is a QH/TB and she's normally fine although last year did have a few weeks of being footy when the grass had a 2nd growth spurt after a lot of rain we had.
 
Hi there I'll throw my 2 pennies in the mix. After reading what you are feeding I would cut all that out, less is best, feed high fibre forage based feed , so muzzled and allowed to eat grass for short periods and build up to however long you want, this way his gut will start to produce the friendly bacteria need to cope, preferably turnout overnight, feed soaked hay when in or as you say low sugar dry forage, double holed make it last longer, then feed unmollased sugarbeet with a little salt added, sugarbeet is high in calcium, everything else he needs will be in the grass and hay. Please try it, cut out all the other things they just do no need them. Another tip is to feel the hooves for heat at different times of day to gauge changes and adjust. Good luck
 
I think the way you are trying to manage your horse is most definitely in his best interests on the whole. However, it is not possible to do this at this yard. You will either have to make do with the yard you are at (in this instance I would say shoes are your only answer next to permanent stabling which would not be in his best interests) or accept that for the best for this horse, you need a different yard.
 
Well yes and no.

Hertfordshire 2010 which was a very hot dry summer he was fine.He went out at night but that was as much as it being nicer to come in from the sun and flies in the day and go out in the cool.

2011 same field, same haylage, same supplements:- no and had to be muzzled but still struggled at times.

Exmoor - yes, absolutely fine, seemed to tolerate any length of turnout with no ill effects.

I've moved yards recently not that far but with a very different grass profile so we'll see what this year brings.

He's barefoot for a whole set of clinical reasons that mean shoes didn't work for him and he would have had to be pts but now I think I'd be terrified if he was shod that I would miss the early signs that he was not coping.
 
BlackVelvet said:
I think some of the comments have been quite harsh to you! You are obviously doing the right thing by your horse and muzzling and restricting grazing because of lami, I see this as being responsible! Whether hes barefoot or not isnt really the issue!

I would stick with the muzzle, maybe not ideal for some but atleast you are making an effort to reduce the grass he has assess too.

You said he has cushings? Is he treated for this? Can the vet maybe advise something?
Click to expand...

Thanks BV, yes he is on Pergolide and regularly tested to check it is under control. He needed 6 :eek:yes 6 mg in order to keep his ACTH down to normal levels. He is what you might say - Metabolically challenged!
 
Thanks to everyone for your input, I do appreciate you taking the time to offer alternatives and encouragement - we all need reassurance and new ideas now and then:)
 
muff747 said:
Thanks to everyone for your input, I do appreciate you taking the time to offer alternatives and encouragement - we all need reassurance and new ideas now and then:)
Click to expand...

Next time - don't waste your time on Tbs.

Get a PROPER horse.

Get an Arab ;)
 
Oberon said:
Next time - don't waste your time on Tbs.

Get a PROPER horse.

Get an Arab ;)
Click to expand...

Ha ha - I must be able to see into the future because when I was looking for a horse 17 years ago, I was quite definitely avoiding going to look at TB's. I honestly went to look at a cob, but someone got there before me:(
I'd travelled quite a way, so they said they had another horse and I took one look and fell in love:( yes I let my heart rule my head.
Anyway - at least I didn't buy a foreigner:eek:
 
muff747 said:
Thanks BV, yes he is on Pergolide and regularly tested to check it is under control. He needed 6 :eek:yes 6 mg in order to keep his ACTH down to normal levels. He is what you might say - Metabolically challenged!
Click to expand...

nearly choked over my coffee, Muff. What was his original reading to need that sort of level. You are not giving me confidence!! :D:D:D
 
muff747 said:
Thanks BV, yes he is on Pergolide and regularly tested to check it is under control. He needed 6 :eek:yes 6 mg in order to keep his ACTH down to normal levels. He is what you might say - Metabolically challenged!
Click to expand...

Mine too is challenged in that department! He has IR and was on 30 metformin tablets a day!

I always think you are better to be safe than sorry with any kind of lami problem. If you know he gets footy on grass then def limit the amount of grass. To me whether you choose to have shoes on or not is completely your choice. Do you still ride etc? I keep mine in pretty much all summer and ride and put him on the walker daily, and if he goes out, he goes in the sand lunge school. I just cant take the risk with him again, hes happy enough in as he also gets sweetitch.
 
OP haven't read through all of the posts but note that your horse's feet become deformed with shoes on. In what way do they become deformed? Is this a farrier issue or do they just not hold shoes.

Just a thought but if it is the grass that affects his feet and makes him footy, and you already know that he suffers lami then could you put shoes back on him to make him more comfortable, whilst restricting his grass intake so as to avoid the problem altogether? I see what people are saying that shoes may mask the real problem - but you already know that he is a suffer of lami so he wouldn't need to get to a serious stage before you knew - you would already be managing the cause of it - the grass.
 
Hi Moomin, he isn't suffering with lami or footiness now so no need to put shoes on, he is comfortable without. It's when he gets too much sugar in his system, hence the reason for limiting his intake. Also, I didn't say he gets laminitis, he never has had a full blown lami episode, and my vet said after two years of on/off footiness that he didn't think he was suffering from laminitis, he basically didn't know. I suspect he has DSLD, I have been told by people very experienced with dealing with the problem that he has many of the signs and symptoms. DLSD or ESPA is made worse by too much sugar and a horse suffering from this moves very much like it has laminitis.
About twelve years ago my farrier ignored my remarks that my horse was becoming footy on stones and then eventually was snatching his left fore up when going downhill. I wasn't sufficiently clued up about hoof shape (I thought I was) and my farrier was a competitor in shoeing competitions so I trusted him. So, he ended up with changes to his navicular bone in this left fore, and badly collapsed heels. They had grown deformed due to the vice they were nailed into. I wished I'd have known what I know now:eek: As soon as I got the steel shoes off, his feet regained some of his natural shape. Looking back, it must have been like us taking off shoes a size too small and pinching everywhere.
Blackvelvet I don't ride anymore due to the D/E.
Paddy555 I had to retest and raise the dose over a period of a year before his levels came down to normal, we started at 85 on 1mg, next it was at 84 so raised to 2mg, next it was 104:eek: so I went it alone following advice from EC/IR yahoo group, that was to dose him at a level that was adequate to keep his levels down to normal. As the years have gone by, he needed more to keep it down and keep his symptoms away. BTW his only symptoms were depression, footiness (which could have been D/E), skin problems, and a high worm burden even tho he had been regularly wormed. He looked exactly the same as he does today - nothing like the typical Cushings type.
I am trying to get more ideas about how I can manage him with his conditions without him going downhill again. He is doing great at the mo but I have noticed his foot shape is deteriorating again and his frogs are getting thrushy, a sign of too much grass as his diet is as low sugar as I can get without him turning his nose up at it.
O incidentally, I give him feeds because I have to add supplements, the Devils Claw and some MSM for his tendons and ligaments. It all fibre based and low sugar/starch.
 
I dont know why you mentioned he's barefoot in the title as it makes no difference TBH. He'd go pottery even if shod if he's lami prone! My shetland it like this, she's very sensitive nowadays. She's out all winter 24/7 on grass with my other two on 5 acres and is as sound as ever at the moment. But come spring and the grass starts growing I have to be extremely careful with her. I am lucky enough to had a large hardcored yard so she stays in there through the grass-growing season with as much hay as she wants (and stables she wonders in and out of etc.). So she's still out and I can put other horses in with her so she get company, she's perfectly happy like this. If you cant have access to an area like this, I'd try fencing off a really small area of the field (ideally a part thats been muddy so there's barely any grass on it, its just dirt) then give lots of hay for her to eat instead. Better for her to be in a small area outside than standing about in a stable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top