Canadian Timber Wolf...

[Onyxia]

Poped into vets to boo kitten in to have his bits off...was looking at the boards while waiting and saw an ad for a Canadian Timber Wolf needign rehoming.
Aparently brought from a reputable breeder in West yorkshire for £1500...look a hell of a lot like a white GSD to me!

Is this something that is on sale over here?
Anyone got any pics? Google not working tonight,wanted to be nosey

 

[pocomoto]

Suspect it's all in the Name as they would need a licence to keep and breed wolves. It's really misleading when animals are named what they clearly are not.

But if it is a wolf then how blo*dy irresponsible as it was probably sneaked in the country on false papers. Wolves should not be kept by the public they can be very dangerous in the wrong hands and even when crossed retain hybrid vigor!

It's taken us thousands of years to tame the wolf the last thing we need is some idot starting the process all over again! Wolves have few redeeming features as pets with ordinary people !

But I suspect from what you say that this is one for trading standards and not the wild animal squad!!! Might be worth looking into though as it could be tragic for people and a wolf if it got into the wrong hands! The vets must know this animal to have it advertised there?

 

[Tia]

Grey Wolves are generally not white unless they are the alpha in the pack. If this is a wolf or hybrid then in the UK you need a licence to keep them (we don't over here). Sounds to me more like you may not be too far off the mark with your suggestion of white GSD.

 

[Onyxia]

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Grey Wolves are generally not white unless they are the alpha in the pack. If this is a wolf or hybrid then in the UK you need a licence to keep them (we don't over here). Sounds to me more like you may not be too far off the mark with your suggestion of white GSD.

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Thats what I thought..

At first glance I though "nice GSD,shame it's white" (sorry to white fans,just not my cup of tea!) then read what it said.
Dont like the idear of someone breeding and selling them as wolves though......looks like this one ended up in a nice home for most of it's life(ad said it's 7 and being rehomed due to relationship break up) wonder how manyhave not been so lucky?

 

[severnmiles]

Anyone with a wolfdog would never admit it, though there are breeders openly advertising Saarloos and Czech Wolfdogs for sale - so slightly contradicting myself.

Many people in America pay considerable amounts for mongrels and not wolfdogs, its a fools market.

I would have loved to have seen the pic as I can pretty much tell the difference, in this country aslong as you don't admit to owning a wolfdog there is nothing the government can do about it as there is no test to define between wolf and wolfdog.

 

[Onyxia]

I'm back at vets Wednesday week,if it's still up I'll see if I can get a pic.

 

[severnmiles]

Now Poco, I'd disagree, you can't meet a friendlier breed then the Saarloos (24-30%) its when people get stupid like in the USA and have 80% wolf blood. Remember they are not a hybrid as they are the same species.

I agree regarding pets however in my opinion they make cracking 'companions'.

 

[Sugarplum Furry]

Quite irresponsible of the vets, too, to have it advertised on their notice board, whether it's a real wolf or a misleading advert.

My dog's breeder is trying to produce a wolf lookalike type dog. This my dog, he a quarter GSD and threequarters Northern Inuit, althogh judging by the thickness of his bone I suspect there might be some Malamute there too.

 

[severnmiles]

[ QUOTE ]
Quite irresponsible of the vets, too, to have it advertised on their notice board, whether it's a real wolf or a misleading advert.

My dog's breeder is trying to produce a wolf lookalike type dog. This my dog, he a quarter GSD and threequarters Northern Inuit, althogh judging by the thickness of his bone I suspect there might be some Malamute there too.

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No offence to your dog but inuit x gsd is a mongrel. No new blood from any of the included 3 breeds has been added for a very long time. I can't think your dog is regd as the breed societies wouldn't or shouldn't allow it!

All the same, lovely dog

 

[Sugarplum Furry]

Severnmiles, I completely agree, he IS a mongrel, I wasn't trying to say he's a pure breed in any way, shape or form.

 

[severnmiles]

Still, he has the nicest eyes

 

[pocomoto]

Just like clarify that Hybridism has nothing to do with species, it is about gene concentration in breeds or types within a species. Hybrid Vigour (Heterosis), is a form of awakening that comes with the influx of new genes in a total out crossing between gene pools within that species. This out crossing will result in an increase in size, yield, and performance.

The crossing of wolves is potentially dangerous as the longer a gene pool has been closed the greater the release of that vigour will become. Not only that but because the gene pool has been closed for a long period and the genes are concentrated, the first generation of the cross, the hybrid, will strongly favour it’s concentrated parent, in this case the wolf.

You only need to look at Husky’s and Cattle Dogs to still see the influence of their wild ancestors, the Wolf and the Dingo and their isolated genes. Outcross either of these two and you sill see that the first generation will look like a Husky or a Cattle dog, testimony to the strength of the wild ancestor and the vigour that is released.

Potentially with crossing, the shy human avoiding wolf may become a large dog with wolf traits and instincts, unpredictability and strength without the shy avoidance, hence the need for caution. It has taken 125,000 years to get the domestic dog from the first captive wolves, there are over 800 dog breeds around for humans to get all faddy with without reintroducing wolf, it’s a fashion and I totally oppose it in any form.

Not only that but the minute anything carrying wolf blood does something inherit in its nature the backlash will damage the wolf itself, and it can really do without that. I say leave the wolf where it belongs in the wild! I hate the way some wolves are kept in this country I deplore it when litters are removed at birth in such a social animal just so Humans can pay to lead them around and pet them!!!

You only have to read the Husky post on here to see that this type of animal is not a pet and it is many generations removed from the wolf, times the problems that a husky presents by 10 fold and you will be getting somewhere near what a wolf will be like. Some may be good companions, but they are a wild animal and this must be viewed as an exception.

I would also point out that a recent study of Mitochondria DNA in dogs suggested that domestication occurred as much as 125,000 years ago due to the fact that dogs possess sequences not present in the wolf. Mitochondrial DNA is used forensically in humans to determine race and point of origin since it does not change rapidly as in cellular DNA. The study found that most wolves tested share no sequences with modern dogs, the few that did probably have interbred with strays. So through Mitochondrial DNA testing, recent wolf heritage can be established. Look out those without a licence!

 

[severnmiles]

What you say, makes sense on paper but perhaps not in reality. The reason I use the Czech and Saarloos as examples is that they are a breed in their own right, Saarloos to Saarloos and not Wolf to GSD. If you know much at all about wolves you would know that a wolf would rather run than attack.

As I constantly say in the Hunting forum I take what is reality above what is written on paper, having met numerous Czechs and Saarloos I have formed my own opinion.

 

[Onyxia]

I'll leave SM to fight the good fight on technical grounds,all I know is I would have trusted my friends wolf hybred over a collie any day

 

[severnmiles]

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I'll leave SM to fight the good fight on technical grounds,all I know is I would have trusted my friends wolf hybred over a collie any day

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Me too!! I'd trust a Saarloos over a JRT! That is in the right hands, a lab could be a killer in the wrong hands.

 

[Onyxia]

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[ QUOTE ]
I'll leave SM to fight the good fight on technical grounds,all I know is I would have trusted my friends wolf hybred over a collie any day

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Me too!! I'd trust a Saarloos over a JRT! That is in the right hands, a lab could be a killer in the wrong hands.

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Too true!
You know y OH thought we had two yorkies for onths when we first met.
With my mother,it's a snappy little sh1te that could really use a kick up the ass,with me,he is lovely.
just goes to show what a difference handling makes

And y mother thinks she is a wonderful dog handler....

 

[pocomoto]

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What you say, makes sense on paper but perhaps not in reality. If you know much at all about wolves you would know that a wolf would rather run than attack.


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The Saarloos is not really a good example if you are going to try and argue against Hybrid Vigour. Dutchman SAARLOOS, recognised and used Hybrid Vigour and his motive in starting the Saarlooswolfhonden breed in the first instance was principally to “create a dog breed with no degeneration”, which he had observed in the German Shepard (poor man must be turning in his grave when he looks at some of today’s GSD show dogs!). So believing the wolf to posses many of his desired traits he set out to establish a breed by using hybrid vigour to improve on his GSD’s problems. This he did in consultation with geneticist Dr. Hagedoorn.

The initial introduction of wolf blood took place in 1925, and in 1965 he added the genes of another she wolf. The breed was established and the book officially closed in 1975, so conservatively that equates to say 36 years or 12 generations since any direct wolf genes have been introduced to this breed. So this does not equate to wolf crosses any more than a Siberian or in Australia an ACD. The society and breeders of the Saarloos are at pains to point out that it is not a wolf-substitute, and that it is most definitely a dog, yet you are using it to argue that wolves have an excellent temperament?

I feel the need to quote this next bit as I think it exemplifies my point.

“Saarlooswolfhond is a dog and not a wolf. You can't live together with wolves without danger. The Saarlooswolfhond has also nothing to do with the wildly produced wolf hybrids and bastards of them, that unfortunately come now more and more in fashion. This is a purebreed race with a special character.”

This statement I totally agree with. You site these claimed wolf crosses as being exemplary but they are rare, thankfully and clearly not yet in the hands of the average idiot, yes any dog can be dangerous in the wrong hands, but your average lab does not have the teeth for crunching bones or ripping open thick hide, nor does it have an inherent instinct to floor something and go directly for the throat when threatened or in response to a perceived threat!

These are wild animals with millions of years of uninterrupted natural selection for strength; cunning and ferocity in the kill and defence of teritory, much of those so called instincts are genetic. They may well be shy in their natural environment and have no need to interact with man, but being in someone’s home in constant contact with human beings is not natural. I should add here that dogs/wolves that are wary of man cannot be judged safe in all circumstances; in fact their shyness when pushed can very easily turn to aggression. Wolves are very territorial and have been known to kill or injure other wolves that enter their pack area. If they consider a family their pack as many dogs do, then all comers to the home (territory) could be fair game. This trait of distrust towards strangers is seen in the Saarlooswolfhonde!


Look at the wolves on Yellowstone, after a break of well over a hundred years it did not take the reintroduced packs long to rekindle the considerable skills and strength necessary to kill a buffalo, this has come from their genes since learned behaviour cannot be responsible after that time period!

The big word here I think is Fashion, the most dangerous of motives to buy a dog and so many breeds and individual dogs have fallen foul of it, most notably Siberian Huskys, look at the appalling conditions some of these dogs are kept in because someone liked the look of them and were too thick or single minded to do the research. And the dog suffers.

A breeder friend received a call the other day about re-homing an unregistered 7 yo full male sibe, which has lost one eye to glaucoma and has had an unsuccessful cataract op in the other. The dog was RECOMMEDED to these idiots who then lived in a flat, by a Veterinary Nurse, who told them there was a littler of 12 and it would be perfect for them (my Ar*e! that was puppy farming with 2 litters!). This poor dog spends its days and nights alone in a garden, separated from it’s “pack” because the female has had a baby and can’t cope with the dog as well! (Never heard of that before !!!!!). The husband refuses to walk the dog now as it’s lost its status symbol effect, saying “what he doesn’t know he won’t miss”. So the dog has now become an escaper and the idiot husband refuses to do anything about the fence! What a fashionable life and how the hell will that dog ever get a good home!

The purebred Saarlooswolfhonden shares many characteristics with the Siberian Husky, but luckily for it it’s domestic herding breed ancestors greatly modify those traits. I would really hate to see this breed become another fashion victim because it’s deemed a wolf alike and quoted as a part bred wolf.