Cancellation of NED and the Horsemeat scandal

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Ciss

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When will Owen Paterson and DEFRA accept that the cheeap jack cancellation last SEptember of NED (all to save £250000 a year and a doctrinaire bid to get rid of another so-called QUANGO) was key factor in the development of the currrent horsermeat scandal? With no effective paper trail for dead horses (either in within the UK or imported / exported) and beef making extremely high prices every fraudster from Yorkshire to the Yalta was going to jump on this particular money making band wagon and I hope that Xavier Guibert and Dr Fussl make this point very clearly at the EU meeting today. So far only Mary Creagh, opposition spokesperson on DEFRA matters has made this connection-- apart from all of the horse industry including all the PIOs of course -- so it does need hammering home. I'm not going to the National Equine Forum this year but if anyone wants to raise the matter with OP during the Q&A session I am sure they will be supported by everyone there :-)
 
Ciss,

I fail to see how the cessation of The NED can have had any influence upon imported horse meat.

I simply don't understand, and perhaps I'm being a bit thick! Could you explain the connection?

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Ciss,

I fail to see how the cessation of The NED can have had any influence upon imported horse meat.

I simply don't understand, and perhaps I'm being a bit thick! Could you explain the connection?

Alec.
Click to expand...

Possibly not on imported horsemeat per se but it certainly does have a very direct effect on exported and home-bred horse meat. This is becuase until NED ceaased to be, it was a legal requirement that all deaths of horses had to be notified to NED either via the PIOs of the horses concerned or via the knackers / slaughterers / abatoirs who returned the passports of horses they put down to NED.

This is important to the monitoring process becuase all passports contain full med records and only horses with:

(i) no use of bute within 6 months prior to the day of death and
(ii) whose Page X specifically signing the horse into the human food chain has been completed

can be legally accepted into the human food chain. This is a requirement of the EU Zootechnics legialation which also stipulates that all such records must be kept centrally and electronically and the cancellation of NED not only made (i) and (ii) unenforceable and breaches of it untraceable but also directly breached the EU legislation that specifies all the regulations that the current horsemeat fraud contravenes. Fraudsters work on an international scale so once they realised that internal regulations had been abandoned they also recognised that the monitoring of imported flesh had become equally weak and took immeodiate advantage of that.

This is common knowledge amongst most UK horse breeding professionals so I am really surprised that you are unaawre of it.
 
This is interesting that NED has closed. Has it been replaced? I ask because on an Irish current affairs programme last night (discussing issues raised by the radio programme that Rollin mentioned), one major issue was the lack of an equine database in Ireland. It was pointed out that this is a major advantage in the UK (the fact that one exists).
 
Cuffey said:
Alec is perhaps not fully aware of the latest news--Re a licensed to kill horses abattoir in West Yorks which seems to have been a well kept secret!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodandd...orse-meat-passed-off-as-beef-by-UK-firms.html
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Thanks for that. I'm not in a position to contradict the claims made by The Telegraph, but some of their claims are a little surprising. Along the lines of The Mail!! I suspect that the Yorkshire slaughter house mentioned, my well have been a processing plant, as were the West Wales outfit. It would be a surprise if horses were being killed, for human consumption, at premises which were not under MHS inspection. If they weren't so licensed, then those who were buying in this meat were as guilty as others.

Cuffey said:
Alec--just read your contribution in Latest News and would be very pleased to see your list of abattoirs licensed to deal with horses
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I'm unaware of those particular abattoirs which though licensed, have now had their ability and license moth balled. There are, again as far as I'm aware, only two licensed and working equine abattoirs, which we have today. There are a further 10 or so which though licensed, have a voluntary abeyance in place, I'm advised. They've retained their licenses, but no longer have the capacity, if that makes sense! The retaining of licenses was probably a sensible business move, in the event that there would still be the facility, should the need arise.

I now need to ask questions of Ciss, so I'll start another post, in a while.

Alec.
 
Ciss said:
....... Fraudsters work on an international scale so once they realised that internal regulations had been abandoned they also recognised that the monitoring of imported flesh had become equally weak and took immeodiate advantage of that.

This is common knowledge amongst most UK horse breeding professionals so I am really surprised that you are unaawre of it.
Click to expand...

I don't deal in horses, or their parts, so I'm unaware of the devious routes which others take.

My understanding has been that the problem has been with the dealings of imported horse meat into this country. Are you saying that the practice includes meat which has been killed and sourced here?

The problem with the relevant passports is that where there's a section which allows an owner to sign the horse out-of a slaughter system for human consumption, so there's another page where the new, or at the point of slaughter, owner, has the facility to place the horse straight back in to the system.

There's a way around everything, I suppose, though I agree with you that to form The NED, and then to disband it, after such a short time, makes for no sense, what so ever.

Alec.
 
I wonder why the beef farmers seem to have been so quiet? I would be furious if I was them, or is it because the media is choosing to ignore them? On one hand the general consensus is that beef is generally expensive, on the other hand, if this is what has been happening, it is no suprise they can be so easily undercut.
 
It would be a surprise if horses were being killed, for human consumption, at premises which were not under MHS inspection.
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On the radio the slaughterhouse owner was just quoted as saying they have a "licence to cut horse meat on site" -- this seems to suggest that the animals are not slaughtered there but are processed there?

Am finding the whole thing more and more confusing. Who are these horses (the non-important ones?) .. hopefully all legit from the licensed slaughterhouses with passport trails, but ... Argh!
 
Luci07 said:
I wonder why the beef farmers seem to have been so quiet? I would be furious if I was them, or is it because the media is choosing to ignore them? On one hand the general consensus is that beef is generally expensive, on the other hand, if this is what has been happening, it is no suprise they can be so easily undercut.
Click to expand...

Think the media is simply ignoring them as a few days ago there were a few small articles about angry farmers and then it all turned into sensationalism again with the Romanian slaughterhouse got blamed (now acquitted again).
 
The Welsh site is said to be a cutting plant.
The Yorkshire site is an abattoir....A licenced horse slaughterer plus other species including ostrich, what he does with all his wallabies I dunno :)!

I should think that everyone here knows of a licenced horse slaughterer in or near their area - theres a whole raft of them.

I wonder how many of them also slaughter cattle/sheep/pigs etc for human consumption?
 
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hackneylass2 said:
The Welsh site is said to be a cutting plant.
The Yorkshire site is an abattoir....A licenced horse slaughterer plus other species including ostrich, what he does with all his wallabies I dunno :)!

.......
Click to expand...

Licensed horse Slaughterers come in a variety of forms;

A qualified Vet.

A Knackerman.

A licensed abattoir worker, be it for pet food, or for human consumption. **

A kennel Huntsman.

Me, though unlicensed, and providing that I don't charge for my service.

** If meat is to enter the human food chain, then it has to come from a premises which is licensed for the purpose. Such a premises has to have a State Vet present at the time of slaughter, and has to be attended by MHS officers.

Those who are referring to the Yorkshire abattoir as a licensed horse slaughterer, whilst right in that they are a Knacker's Yard, are wrong if they think that they are there to pass food into the human food chain. They aren't. There's a world of difference.

"IF" Mr. Boddy has been supplying horse meat into the human food system, then he'll go down for it. That's "IF". If he passed meat on as pet food, as he's entitled to do, and if that meat was then sold on, by a.n.other, and if the law has been broken, then they will face the consequences.

The responsibility also lies with the processor, in that they source all their supplies from ethical and correct sources. Those that don't face the high jump, and deservedly so.

Alec.
 
I actually don't think that the shutting down of NED is responsible for these 'scandals' - I'm damn sure it has been going on for MUCH longer!

Live horses are coming into this country with a complete absence of health checks or ANYTHING on their passports to show the route they have taken - or what 'treatment' they have had on the way! (I have seen 1st hand evidence of this!) They could easily disappear into the food chain.

Passports seemed like a good idea when they were introduced but - like ANY legislation - they needed enforcement and the resources to do it. Perfectly otherwise law-abiding citizens DON'T bother to notify PIOs when they buy a horse - the responsibility SHOULD have been put on the seller IMHO! People still buy horses without passports - and can get a new passport for them with very little hassle - and rarely is the seller prosecuted for selling a horse without a passport (which is illegal!)

And any dodgy dealer, transporter or casualty slaughterer has a box of 'spare' passports for time of need!
 
"Those who are referring to the Yorkshire abattoir as a licensed horse slaughterer, whilst right in that they are a Knacker's Yard, are wrong if they think that they are there to pass food into the human food chain. They aren't. There's a world of difference. "

That was exactly my point Alec, albeit made slightly tongue in cheek.

I do know the variations of licence holders but am a little perplexed at the thought of a slightly 'mixed' business.
 
Ciss said:
This is important to the monitoring process becuase all passports contain full med records and only horses with:


All passports? I've never seen one with anything other than the vaccination details in. But then all those had been signed out of the food chain.

(i) no use of bute within 6 months prior to the day of death and
(ii) whose Page X specifically signing the horse into the human food chain has been completed
Click to expand...

Bute isn't permitted in any horse for human consumption. At all. This was one of the reasons for the passport system in the first place.
 
Alec Swan said:
The problem with the relevant passports is that where there's a section which allows an owner to sign the horse out-of a slaughter system for human consumption, so there's another page where the new, or at the point of slaughter, owner, has the facility to place the horse straight back in to the system.

There's a way around everything, I suppose, though I agree with you that to form The NED, and then to disband it, after such a short time, makes for no sense, what so ever.

Alec.
Click to expand...


I thought once the horse had been signed out, it was impossible for it to be changed?? Or am I missing something??!
 
No you can't change the passport to intended for human consumption if it's already been signed not intended... Or so it states on my weatherbys passport. I must say I much prefer my weatherbys passport, the bog standard ID one for other horse looks like cheap tat that would be easily tampered with or replaced.
 
david c said:
I thought once the horse had been signed out, it was impossible for it to be changed?? Or am I missing something??!
Click to expand...

I have a passport before me, and it has a sheet entitled Section 1X. It has 3 headings Part 1. Part II, where the owner or those representing the owner, can sign to have the animal definitively removed from slaughter, and must be confirmed when the animal changes ownership. (What happens if it isn't confirmed?)

Part III-A For signature by the current owner, that the animal IS to go for slaughter for human food.

If the subsequent owner of a horse dates Part III-A after the date on Part II, then wouldn't the latest instruction stand? I don't know, and I'm only wondering. I also think it strange that when ownership is completed, a previous owner, with no legal hold on the animal can decide its future. If for instance, I sold you a car, and you decided to export it, or use it in sport, or what ever, how could I as a previous owner prevent you from doing so? It all seems a bit odd to me.

The Section 1X was slipped in without any real understanding by the general public, of the implications, I suspect.

Alec.
 
JanetGeorge said:
I actually don't think that the shutting down of NED is responsible for these 'scandals' - I'm damn sure it has been going on for MUCH longer!

Live horses are coming into this country with a complete absence of health checks or ANYTHING on their passports to show the route they have taken - or what 'treatment' they have had on the way! (I have seen 1st hand evidence of this!) They could easily disappear into the food chain.

Passports seemed like a good idea when they were introduced but - like ANY legislation - they needed enforcement and the resources to do it. Perfectly otherwise law-abiding citizens DON'T bother to notify PIOs when they buy a horse - the responsibility SHOULD have been put on the seller IMHO! People still buy horses without passports - and can get a new passport for them with very little hassle - and rarely is the seller prosecuted for selling a horse without a passport (which is illegal!)

And any dodgy dealer, transporter or casualty slaughterer has a box of 'spare' passports for time of need!
Click to expand...

Yes Janet,

At the height of the 'Franchgate' debate, I learned that a transporter from France was bringing in a lorry load of Spanish horses each week, to the biggest horse abbatoir in Feance.

Some of these horses were 'rescued' given pet ID passports and sold on - some I believe to the UK. I wrote to DEFRA at the time and was told these non-French horses entering the UK under the tri-partate agreement, did not present a risk to the British Equine herd!!!!

The USPCA in Ireland has been investigating criminal activity, with regard to horses going for slaughter with forged passports, for two years.
 
I thinking of askingfor my money back from my horses passports, as they are obviously not up to the job, never were, just a way of screwing more money out of us by the government.

I was also interested to read in one paper that horsemeat doesnt go into petfood ? I thought that was what most dog food contained .
 
Just to point out there is no such thing as the MHS anymore it was merged with the FSA part of Government Cuts, rather than all the speculation about all this the FSA have a helpline and I am sure they will give you answers to your Questions about The Slaughterhouse/s in question.
 
Alec Swan said:
I have a passport before me, and it has a sheet entitled Section 1X. It has 3 headings Part 1. Part II, where the owner or those representing the owner, can sign to have the animal definitively removed from slaughter, and must be confirmed when the animal changes ownership. (What happens if it isn't confirmed?)
Alec.
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell and I'm looking at a passport now, if the animal is signed out then that's it, no Dobbin pies from that horse ever, regardless of subsequent owners. So you can sign a horse in, then change it but once it's signed out, it's out for good.
 
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