toffeeyummy
Well-Known Member
Cross posted murphy88. "takes hat off to your hard work and bows out" 
Cancer WWYD
- Thread starter pistolpete
- Start date
Cinnamontoast
Fais pas chier!
Just offensive. I must tell my farmer friends this next time one of them has to have their beloved companion PTS.
The first thing the vet asked when my horse broke his olecronon was 'Is he insured?' Call me crazy, but if I'd said no, I think he wouldn't have decided the leg could be fixed and if I'd had more experience, I would have asked for the knackerman's number. I couldn't care less about the monetary value, I care deeply about the quality of life and not prolonging suffering.
At the age of ten, I think that it would be kinder to leave the dog and to see how she goes rather than make her undergo further procedures.
I was gobsmacked at a vet nurse whose dog had spinal cancer and couldn't walk, same issue as my dog that I had PTS two days after diagnosis. She kept him for months, unable to walk or go outside without being carried, weeing in his bed.
It's upsetting, devastating, even, to lose a beloved pet, but the dog's well being should always be at the forefront.
Aru
Well-Known Member
I can honestly say that I do try to advise in the best interests of the small animals I am treating....is that really so hard to believe? Of course there are a few bad eggs in the profession but this conception that we are all money grabbers is a bit hard to take.
I give people their options..even in cases where a referral is very unlikely to be taken up it is always offered......but at the end of the day it is the choice of the owners as to which treatment way we go and they need to know all the options. Insurance or not we have the same treatment plans offered.Insurance just means that their are more options open to owners as their is less financial restriction.
Do I sell the wormers etc that have in the practice of course I do...Its up to the owner to do price shop on their goods.We provide convenience if they want those sort of treatments and convenience will have a mark up cost.Everything is marked up its a business and I like to be paid and drugs etc bring in my wages! however we only stock reliable brands and do provide prescriptions when its requested.
In the vast majority of my cases however economics make the choices for treatments at the end of the day.Its rarely for the best of the animal it comes down to what the owner can afford and how willing they are to pursue diagnostics/further treatments.
I am in a rural mostly large animal practice where insurance is rare as hens teeth in pets and we are also one of the cheapest practices treating small animals in the area....We put down a quite a few animals having done very little diagnostics tests as owners do not have the funds or do not wish to spend money on their pets
. I like when people have insurance as they get to say yes to further treatments and diagnostics without as much deliberation over cost analysis so we have a better chance of finding the problem and fixing it if it is possible. We do not just work up bills for the money theres a reason behind every test done and thats explained to the owners.
OP I would look at how your dog responded to her last operation and her quality of life at the minute and what this operation would offer her in terms of quality of life...
I would also seriously consider doing a met check, looking further into the type of tumour she has and their general prognosis and doing pre-op bloods to check her general health before further operations. Finding out if she has other issues ie with liver/ kidney function or spreading tumours will help drastically to answer the question of will this improve her long term quality of life.
A ten year old with no other underlying issues and no tumour spread would not be an unreasonable candiate for surgery IMO. However she is your dog and you know her so it is at the end of the day your call
twiglet84
Well-Known Member
Couldnt agree more with Susie!
Cant stand people tarring the whole profession just because of a few bad eggs.
A treatment option is giving to our patients regardless of whether it is insured or not, the owner then makes the decision on which path to take! We dont increase or decrease prices based on insurance and we certainly dont carry out diagnostics or procedures to milk the insurance.
So please, before you summarise the whole profession, dont! Because you havent been to my practice and our interests are with the animals but like Susie said, vets cost money and we are all trying to run a business!
I really cant believe people are saying that at 10yrs old not to operate. I put my 9yr old rottie through surgery in december (splenectomy) and was diagnosed with cancer, do i regret the surgery? No way! She had a CT scan i knew her chest was clear. She is doing so well, she was back to her normal self within two days, no post op complications (didnt expect any), so if i get her for another 6 months then why not?? Im so pleased we went for surgery. If i hadnt operated, she'd be dead now!!
All patients and cases are different, just because joe blogg's dog didnt do well doesnt mean yours wont, there mass might have been in a different place, a different size, be different cancer, they may have other medical problems too. Thats why the decision needs to be yours. But i think you are doing the right think having a CT scan first before deciding next step.
Cant stand people tarring the whole profession just because of a few bad eggs.
A treatment option is giving to our patients regardless of whether it is insured or not, the owner then makes the decision on which path to take! We dont increase or decrease prices based on insurance and we certainly dont carry out diagnostics or procedures to milk the insurance.
So please, before you summarise the whole profession, dont! Because you havent been to my practice and our interests are with the animals but like Susie said, vets cost money and we are all trying to run a business!
I really cant believe people are saying that at 10yrs old not to operate. I put my 9yr old rottie through surgery in december (splenectomy) and was diagnosed with cancer, do i regret the surgery? No way! She had a CT scan i knew her chest was clear. She is doing so well, she was back to her normal self within two days, no post op complications (didnt expect any), so if i get her for another 6 months then why not?? Im so pleased we went for surgery. If i hadnt operated, she'd be dead now!!
All patients and cases are different, just because joe blogg's dog didnt do well doesnt mean yours wont, there mass might have been in a different place, a different size, be different cancer, they may have other medical problems too. Thats why the decision needs to be yours. But i think you are doing the right think having a CT scan first before deciding next step.
ecrozier
Well-Known Member
OP I agree with the others who say I would do the CT scan and if all else clear, consider the surgery. I have a rottie who was diagnosed with osteosarcoma last year, we elected to have the affected leg amputated. He's going strong 3 months on, as yet no evidence of any secondary tumours and the extra 3 months and counting was, to my mind, well worth the operation. He's still a happy soul, goes out for a walk every day albeit 20 mins rather than previous 40, and has bounced back incredibly well. What I wouldn't do, is chemo/radiotherapy. We were offered the choice but for me on an older dog it wasn't worth the negative side effects.
Blanche
Well-Known Member
OP - I would go with the scan , see whats what and then go from there . IMHO it's quality not quantity that matters and you have to make that call . Good luck and hugs to you both .
I have to say I'm with Alec on this re vets . With all due respect to Murphy 88 , Aru and any other vet on here not all vets are equal . I've had some shockers over the years and not just ones that push treatments . Equally I have had some fantastic vets who I have trusted completely . I find that vets that are more interested in the science behind treatment will push for more where as vets who are animal lovers will say it's time to make that decision . I was put in that position of keeping a 15 yr old dally going against my better judgement and it is something I will regret for ever . I should have been more forcful , instead my dog had treatment that was of no use and a prolonged end . It will not happen again . I made a mistake based on a forceful professional . My bad.
I have to say I'm with Alec on this re vets . With all due respect to Murphy 88 , Aru and any other vet on here not all vets are equal . I've had some shockers over the years and not just ones that push treatments . Equally I have had some fantastic vets who I have trusted completely . I find that vets that are more interested in the science behind treatment will push for more where as vets who are animal lovers will say it's time to make that decision . I was put in that position of keeping a 15 yr old dally going against my better judgement and it is something I will regret for ever . I should have been more forcful , instead my dog had treatment that was of no use and a prolonged end . It will not happen again . I made a mistake based on a forceful professional . My bad.
Dobiegirl
Well-Known Member
OP - I would go with the scan , see whats what and then go from there . IMHO it's quality not quantity that matters and you have to make that call . Good luck and hugs to you both .
I have to say I'm with Alec on this re vets . With all due respect to Murphy 88 , Aru and any other vet on here not all vets are equal . I've had some shockers over the years and not just ones that push treatments . Equally I have had some fantastic vets who I have trusted completely . I find that vets that are more interested in the science behind treatment will push for more where as vets who are animal lovers will say it's time to make that decision . I was put in that position of keeping a 15 yr old dally going against my better judgement and it is something I will regret for ever . I should have been more forcful , instead my dog had treatment that was of no use and a prolonged end . It will not happen again . I made a mistake based on a forceful professional . My bad.
Isnt that true of every profession though, there are always bad eggs but to tar all vets with being money grabbers with no interest in the animals welfare is wrong on every level . It is up to people to find vets they can trust, I had an excellent equine vet but it took me a long time to find a vet for my dogs that I could trust to tell me the right thing.
Cinammon Toast I do know farmers like Susie described so I dont think she was doing farmers an injustice, we as farmers have welfare very much at heart as do many of our farming friends.
OP I think you are right to go for the scan and wait and see what the results are I do believe you have your head screwed on and will make the right decision. I hope the scan does not realise your worst fears.
Alec Swan
...
Reading between the lines, the bulk of your work is with farm stock, and faced with the realities of farming, most vets, as I'm sure that you'll accept, are already aware of the economics of farming and will be able to predict the response!!
A few bad eggs? I've a good chum who's a small animal vet, I've 'phoned him, he's logged on and viewed the responses, I've assured him that I wouldn't attribute his thoughts, to him, and asked his opinion, and his immediate reaction was unprintable!!
The gist of his reply was that Vets are not a registered charity, OF COURSE when there's an insurance claim to be used, it will affect his view of the options. When I asked if an animal which had little chance of survival, was presented to them, and if following extensive surgery the prognosis was still not one where there was a value of life for the dog, would he recommend a humane end, or offer continued treatment, and how did he feel that the rest of his profession would deal with the question.
There was a long pause, and he answered the question by saying that if every dog which came through his doors, with a life threatening condition where the prognosis was that life couldn't be expected to continue for much longer, and he advised that the animal be PTS, then he'd very soon run out of clients!!
He then offered the opinion that there are those insurance companies who are starting to wise up, and be difficult, and that he now has a list of companies who he prefers to deal with. He also accepts that these preferred companies have insurance premiums which are considerably higher than others.
Murphy88 and Aru, my thoughts are not a direct attack against you, or your profession, but a suggestion that the average pet owner wakes up and understands that most vets have a living to earn, and will on occasion, put their need for finances before the well being of their patient. From that stance, I'm unable to bend. Sorry.
Finally, were I alone, I'd be looking at my own thoughts. For those who can't accept what I say, just look back through this thread and others and view the posts of those who were talked into extensive treatment which dragged out a miserable end, for their often beloved companion, and whilst you're at it, consider their regrets.
Alec.
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noodle_
Well-Known Member
You've asked WWYD.
Me? I'd ignore my vet's attempts at stringing out further ops on a 10 yo dog which will suffer until it's put down. I'd take NO further action. I'd await the down turn in the dog's health, when it gets to the stage where it isn't enjoying life, and then I'd take the dog back to my vet, and offer him my final instructions. That's what I'd do.
What I wouldn't do is allow a vet, through your valued insurance () to run up a massive bill at the expense, not of your Insurers, but the Dog.
I'd also check with your Insurers that they are prepared to support a second claim for the same area of complaint. I'm sorry to be brutal in this, but very few Vets are the altruistic people that we imagine.
Alec.
sound advice from alec as per....
totally agree - quality of life not quantity....
noodle_
Well-Known Member
oh and just to add in regards to vets;
some vet's do more (or can offer more) when they ask the "are you insured?"....
money is no object with my dogs (horses is a little different )i will move mountains to pay for them - so i find it offensive from a vet when suddenly a whole new range of treatments are available when you are insured...
im lucky with my vet's atm (times have changed for us) they are good.... dont milk the insurance and do whats necessary but i have spent time building up a relationship with my vet's so they are on my wavelength as i believe quality of THE ANIMAL life is way more important to my feelings......
good luck OP very debatable subject sadly,
some vet's do more (or can offer more) when they ask the "are you insured?"....
money is no object with my dogs (horses is a little different
)i will move mountains to pay for them - so i find it offensive from a vet when suddenly a whole new range of treatments are available when you are insured... im lucky with my vet's atm (times have changed for us) they are good.... dont milk the insurance and do whats necessary but i have spent time building up a relationship with my vet's so they are on my wavelength as i believe quality of THE ANIMAL life is way more important to my feelings......
good luck OP very debatable subject sadly,
Star_Chaser
Well-Known Member
I wish that were true
My experience has been varied some vets think that the fact that they have a host of treatments they can provide that they should when the reality is that some of them will make no bearing on the quality of life of the animal they are treating if you have insurance to cover the costs. I've stood in a surgery with one of my dogs literally bleeding out on the floor and they refused to treat until I had completed all the forms needed to get my insurance money. That particular vet then had the cheek to complain about the mess my dog had made on his floor 
These days I don't let my vets know if I have insurance or not they give me all the options good and bad and then I make a decision based on my animals. When in doubt second opinion costs little to make. I'm not sure if this is for you OP but the Animal Health Trust are doing some research into cancer if your dog is KC registered or a particular breed you might be able to help further research. http://www.aht.org.uk/cms-display/science_oncology.html
My friend donated her dog to aid their research, it was a very generous thing to do but I have to be honest I am not sure I could do that myself. A swab or a blood test though is do'able.
noodle_
Well-Known Member
I wish that were true
I'm not sure if this is for you OP but the Animal Health Trust are doing some research into cancer if your dog is KC registered or a particular breed you might be able to help further research. http://www.aht.org.uk/cms-display/science_oncology.html
My friend donated her dog to aid their research, it was a very generous thing to do but I have to be honest I am not sure I could do that myself. A swab or a blood test though is do'able.
thick question here... live dog??? like gave the dog away for reasearch!?
i hope not.
i would donate my dog's body once gone if they had a rare issue etc...but..??
Alec Swan
...
In the cases of dogs which are of real use to the researcher, then the deal is generally that humane destruction is upon arrival. It's not that unusual.
Alec.
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
I wish that were true
This seems to be more true than ever nowadays with the advancement of treatments - some not at all ethical for the animal itself like the horse having BOTH eyes removed! Where are the ethics and quality of life in that just because they could?
Good luck OP, hope the scan is positive for you.
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
Says quite clearly on the AHT's website
'' We do not use any experimental animals in our research, but rather we rely on obtaining samples of naturally occurring tumours that are collected from patients by veterinary surgeons as part of the normal diagnostic clinical procedures.''
Hope that helps
twiglet84
Well-Known Member
We've just removed Both a dogs eyes due to glaucoma, dog was only 3. It was either that or PTS, far too painful to leave them in and the dog had already adjusted to being blind. So measfen what was the history and condition of the horse having both eyes removed? Xx
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
I don't know exactly Twiglet except my vet was spitting feathers about it as it's totally unacceptable and incredibly selfish of the owner; a horse is a horse, not a dog, what about its flight instincts, how dangerous could that be to everyone let alone itself? It's covered in Your Horse mag apparently.
noodle_
Well-Known Member
Says quite clearly on the AHT's website
'' We do not use any experimental animals in our research, but rather we rely on obtaining samples of naturally occurring tumours that are collected from patients by veterinary surgeons as part of the normal diagnostic clinical procedures.''
Hope that helps
thanks!! i did think it was a stupid question
but i have also heard of horses being used for procedures (live) such as weigh experiements before euthanasia - but nothing "nasty" as such.... thats what i was like omfg!?
i would donate my dog once gone if it was something so rare and more research was needed, never an issue for me
sorry back on topic
MyBoyChe
Well-Known Member
Just found this thread and have to say in the main I agree with Alec and Maesfen who both make very good points. With the advancement of treatment nowadays Im not sure that we should always operate just because we have the technology! Im a firm believer in putting the welfare of the animal first and the feelings of the owner second. For this reason when my dogs get to 10 years old I cancel the insurance. Reasons are 2fold, firstly it becomes quite expensive to insure an older dog (we are fortunate in that we could afford to pay for any treatment if we chose to have it) and secondly by not having insurance we consider far more carefully before we allow any treatments. A case in point was Rosie, my old ESS, in perfect health until she was 12, then literally got up one morning and was carrying one hind leg, took her to vet who suggested an Xray to confirm his suspicion, we had 4 xrays done which did confirm the bone cancer and we decided to have her put to sleep rather than pursue any treatments. My big advantage is that I trust this vet 100%, have known him for 30 years and he speaks good, plain common sense. He did offer treatment options, but also said that they wouldnt give her much extra time and he couldnt guarantee she would be completely pain free 100%of the time. So to sum up, the OP asked WWYD. Well I would speak with my vet and be happy to take his advice, I absolutely know he speaks for the animals welfare and not his bank balance. Perhaps I am just very very lucky!
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Totally missed this thread. Firstly to the OP I would say follow the advice given by some on here, have the CT scan and depending on the result of that , and how she coped with surgery last time, make your decision.
Alec, your reading between the lines with regard to Murphy88 is totally wrong, she does the absolute minimum of farm work, the majority of her work is divided between small animals and equine.
Probably the best vet I have ever known (who sadly is no longer with us), was a partner in the practice but still did free visits, offered realistic advice and on more than one occasion that I know of suggested to people that they would be wasting their time spending more of their (or the insurers) money. The very last call he made to me was when my Cushings pony had colic. She is very dramatic and at one stage I really thought she had breathed her last, she then gave a big sigh, stood up, shook herself and started grazing. 5 minutes later the vet arrived, and I tried to explain that she really had been bad, cue lots of piss taking by the vet (Maesfen will know who I am talking about), he gave her a full check over, told me to call him if she started again and left. I never received a bill, that was by no means unusual for him.
Alec, your reading between the lines with regard to Murphy88 is totally wrong, she does the absolute minimum of farm work, the majority of her work is divided between small animals and equine.
Probably the best vet I have ever known (who sadly is no longer with us), was a partner in the practice but still did free visits, offered realistic advice and on more than one occasion that I know of suggested to people that they would be wasting their time spending more of their (or the insurers) money. The very last call he made to me was when my Cushings pony had colic. She is very dramatic and at one stage I really thought she had breathed her last, she then gave a big sigh, stood up, shook herself and started grazing. 5 minutes later the vet arrived, and I tried to explain that she really had been bad, cue lots of piss taking by the vet (Maesfen will know who I am talking about), he gave her a full check over, told me to call him if she started again and left. I never received a bill, that was by no means unusual for him.
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
Oh MM, we still miss him so much; not just for his great vet work but the man himself.
We used to joke that the practice would be bankrupt if left to him for the amount of favours he did for everyone. I rang up surgery to ask if I could bring an old bitch in to be put down that day,(not an emergency but it needed doing although in all likelihood, she would have slipped away in the next few days anyway), he answered the phone himself and insisted that he would be out later on which he was and wouldn't take anything for it except for a cuppa and cake then insisted on helping D dig her grave.
There aren't many like him nowadays , more's the pity. OP, I hope your vet is one of them who you can feel fully confident is giving you the best advice for your own dog.
Good luck.
We used to joke that the practice would be bankrupt if left to him for the amount of favours he did for everyone. I rang up surgery to ask if I could bring an old bitch in to be put down that day,(not an emergency but it needed doing although in all likelihood, she would have slipped away in the next few days anyway), he answered the phone himself and insisted that he would be out later on which he was and wouldn't take anything for it except for a cuppa and cake then insisted on helping D dig her grave.
There aren't many like him nowadays , more's the pity. OP, I hope your vet is one of them who you can feel fully confident is giving you the best advice for your own dog.
Good luck.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Me too Pat, he truly was one of the best.
Alec Swan
...
Really? I apologise, I assumed that M88 dealt with farm stock.
Am I wrong?
I once took an elderly dog to a vet, on behalf of it's elderly and pauperesque owner, for the poor little sod to be sent off to heaven. A week later his said owner followed him. I offered to settle the debt, but the man looked at me, and pointed out that he NEVER charged for the final act. They do exist, I agree. Proper people abound, they do just take some finding, though!
Alec.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
I didn't say she never dealt with farm stock, just that she did the minimum. So yes you were wrong to suggest the bulk of her work was with farm stock (unless you are including horses as farm).Obviously when you are the vet on call you deal with whatever animal needs you.
I am glad you have dealt with some decent vets Alec, they are definitely worth searching for and hanging onto. I have had vets I didn't trust/lost faith in, and I voted with my feet very quickly.
I am glad you have dealt with some decent vets Alec, they are definitely worth searching for and hanging onto. I have had vets I didn't trust/lost faith in, and I voted with my feet very quickly.
Hoof_Prints
Well-Known Member
I have worked alongside quite a few vets and I do not think for one minute that their best interest is in the money if that was the case.. they would have studied to be doctors It's easier to get in to and pays a lot more !
Putting yourselves in a vet's shoes- they do have to list the options available- bearing in mind that the owner is paying for a service. It is the owner's choice to then decide what route to take once fully informed. Vets have to essentially treat the owners!
Owners of pets get very distraught when they have their animals PTS and many of the owners are not as rational thinking as the majority of people on this forum- and are a 'life at all costs' mentality. The pet is their best friend and they cannot let them go, I've seen owners demand for life saving treatments and shout over the vet table for something to be done. It is a very difficult job and vets have to treat the situation as open minded as possible to satisfy such a wide variety of viewpoints.
Good and bad in any profession but I have found that most vets have had the animals best interests at heart.
if that was the case.. they would have studied to be doctors It's easier to get in to and pays a lot more !Putting yourselves in a vet's shoes- they do have to list the options available- bearing in mind that the owner is paying for a service. It is the owner's choice to then decide what route to take once fully informed. Vets have to essentially treat the owners!
Owners of pets get very distraught when they have their animals PTS and many of the owners are not as rational thinking as the majority of people on this forum- and are a 'life at all costs' mentality. The pet is their best friend and they cannot let them go, I've seen owners demand for life saving treatments and shout over the vet table for something to be done. It is a very difficult job and vets have to treat the situation as open minded as possible to satisfy such a wide variety of viewpoints.
Good and bad in any profession but I have found that most vets have had the animals best interests at heart.
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CorvusCorax
Deary me...
I know some great vets and some terrible vets, same as with doctors or indeed, as mentioned, any profession, they're not all money-grabbing halfwits and they're not all walking saints patching up the wounded animals of this world for free!
pistolpete
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the kind words, bizarrely I work for a vet so know they are just human and all different, some much better than others! My dog is going to have the CT scan tomorrow, pretty sure I am not going to allow surgery but need to have a bit more info to make my decision more easily. She seems quite uncomfortable tonight, would not let her have scan if it was painful or invasive. Bless her she is a sweet dog! It's true I would not have the scan done if she wasn't insured. Equally I hope I have the strength to make the right decision for her when the time comes. Thanks again for all the good wishes.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Sorry we hijacked your thread a bit.
I hope the scan brings good news, it sounds as if you will do your best for her whatever that may be.
I hope the scan brings good news, it sounds as if you will do your best for her whatever that may be.{97702}
...
It sounds like you have exactly the right approach to keeping HER best interests at heart PistolPete, I wish there were more owners around like you All best wishes to you, I know it is a very difficult situation for you to be in, but thinking of you x
All best wishes to you, I know it is a very difficult situation for you to be in, but thinking of you x
CAYLA
Well-Known Member
I owned a large breed dog and he had 3 growths/tumours removed from his arm pit area, they where cancerous but did not metastise they where in a very awkward place (not the best for the vet to work with) 2 ops performed by one senior a few years apart and the last a very young vet who removed it (it was the biggest it had grown) and she meshed it to create more stretch the ripe old age of 11yrs, it was flipping marvelous what she did) she made one fantastic job and it never returned
, his first op was 8 yrs his second 10 yrs and his third he had just turned 12yrs and he lived till 15 (nearly 16) (not related to his tumours) he simply lost the use of his hind legs. He breezed through the anaesthetics. As said by the level headed, all dogs are different and all owners know their dogs and should know their minds regardless of the vet. Good luck whatever you decide. Let us know how you get on x
When I was in the position of being diagnosed for a growth in my brain I wish my Dr had been so competent, it may not have gone un diagnosed so long and he may not have had to panick so much when calling me at home to tell me to get to hospital asap for my scan
(6 months after me telling him) something was not right and him telling me (you are meer girl) dont you worry yourself there is nothing wrong I think I would trust my own vets to deal with my care over my Dr anyday.