Cannabis oil ?

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bonny

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Has anyone tried this with their dog ? I’m considering using it but I’d love to hear anyone else’s experience with it and if it helped ?
 

skinnydipper

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CBD oil inhibits the P450 enzyme in the liver and affects the metabolism of other drugs. It should not for instance be used alongside steroids.

There are different strengths and it would be easy to give too much if you didn't read up on the exact dose and measure dose accurately, to a fraction of a ml.

THC toxicity is a very real risk.
 

bonny

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CBD oil inhibits the P450 enzyme in the liver and affects the metabolism of other drugs. It should not for instance be used alongside steroids.

There are different strengths and it would be easy to give too much if you didn't read up on the exact dose and measure dose accurately, to a fraction of a ml.

THC toxicity is a very real risk.
Have you used it ?
 

skinnydipper

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Have you used it ?

No, I looked into it to use for my last dog. He was on multiple drugs including steroids. After doing lots of "homework" I decided it wasn't worth the risk.

You need to do a lot of research before you use it. Everything has to be considered, including the carrier oil as this affects absorption. MCT is considered the best.
 
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bonny

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Mine isn’t on any drugs but he is having major seizures, I feel like cannabis is worth a try but I also want to do the right thing by him.
 

skinnydipper

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Mine isn’t on any drugs but he is having major seizures, I feel like cannabis is worth a try but I also want to do the right thing by him.

Has your dog been investigated to find the cause of the seizures?

I would recommend following your vet's advice before trying to treat this yourself.

I had a dog with idiopathic grand mal epilepsy. She survived many years on daily veterinary prescribed medication and I administered rectal Diazepam for prolonged seizures. The medication controlled but did not eliminate the fits. She had cluster seizures and on medication could have a couple of weeks free between clusters.

She was a happy, bright dog and I never considered euthanasia as she enjoyed life to the full.

She was eventually put to sleep due to status epilepticus. She was 6 when diagnosed and 12 when she died.

Please feel free to ask me anything, I'll try to help if I can.

ETA. Annie was taking Epiphen and potassium bromide daily - these did not affect her quality of life - she was not drowsy on them. There was no evidence for using Pexion for cluster seizures so this wasn't tried.
 
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PurBee

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The law on CBD oil is that it cannot contain more than 0.2% THC cannabinoid.

CBD is an excellent anti-inflammatory. I’ve known a few cases, including myself, where it helped.

I dont know of reports on dogs, but it could be useful for arthritic conditions.
Ask your vet if they have any cases using CBD oil for the condition youre wanting to treat.

Although for the cost of CBD oil, there’s alot of other effective anti-inflammatory natural options to try that are far cheaper....turmeric/msm/chondroitin/probiotics etc.

In the future the whole range of cannabinoids will be studied even moreso than now and will become a commonplace remedy for various ailments, at a reduced price than the highly inflated price it is today.
Its a shame that the drug world bred ‘super high THC hybrid cannabis’ Which has given the indigenous plant botanical healing qualities a skewed understanding by the majority.

P.s ‘hemp oil’ is not the same as CBD oil.
Hemp oil is from the hempseeds, containing high omega 3 and 6. (I wouldnt use hemp oil for inflammatory conditions anyway as it contains an inverted omega index. Much higher pro-inflamm. Omega 6 content compared to anti-inflamm omega 3)
CBD is not contained in hemp seeds.
CBD cannabinoid is found in the trichomes of the flower of hemp plant.
So if the bottle doesnt say ‘CBD OIL’ on the front, it’s just hemp oil. There’s some unscrupulous sellers on ebay and amazon pulling a fast one on people by selling hemp oil as cbd oil.
 

bonny

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Has your dog been investigated to find the cause of the seizures?

I would recommend following your vet's advice before trying to treat this yourself.

I had a dog with idiopathic grand mal epilepsy. She survived many years on daily veterinary prescribed medication and I administered rectal Diazepam for prolonged seizures. The medication controlled but did not eliminate the fits. She had cluster seizures and on medication could have a couple of weeks free between clusters.

She was a happy, bright dog and I never considered euthanasia as she enjoyed life to the full.

She was eventually put to sleep due to status epilepticus. She was 6 when diagnosed and 12 when she died.

Please feel free to ask me anything, I'll try to help if I can.

ETA. Annie was taking Epiphen and potassium bromide daily - these did not affect her quality of life - she was not drowsy on them. There was no evidence for using Pexion for cluster seizures so this wasn't tried.
Thank you for your reply, my dog had just had a major fit in the house which is what led to my question. I spoke to my vet a couple of weeks ago, he did blood tests which showed nothing and we talked about medication but I got the feeling he thought it didn’t help much and I was reluctant to put him on life long medication which at best would reduce the number of fits he’s having. I don’t know what to do, earlier I was considering pts which sounds drastic but so is watching this happening and although my vet said he wouldn’t know when he’s having a seizure I’m finding that hard to believe. He’s only 3 and the number of seizures is increasing as well as the severity of them. Would you try cannabis oil or do you think it wouldn’t help ?
 

PurBee

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My friends akita age 6 ish suddenly developed grand mal seizures, that involved urinating everywhere too. The vet gave medication which reduced the number of seizures, and i found online a recommendation that someone said worked for seizures a recipe of cooked courgette and sweet potato, which i made for it and friend fed daily, along with usual dried kibble (prob grain based)...and the combo stopped the seizures.

This was some years ago and i cant recall what it was that was in the potato and veg mix specifically but it was recommended for seizures. Google this, hopefully now yrs have passed there could be more dietary advice.

Their akita lived for many yrs after this seizure free, while on medication.
 

skinnydipper

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Thank you for your reply, my dog had just had a major fit in the house which is what led to my question. I spoke to my vet a couple of weeks ago, he did blood tests which showed nothing and we talked about medication but I got the feeling he thought it didn’t help much and I was reluctant to put him on life long medication which at best would reduce the number of fits he’s having. I don’t know what to do, earlier I was considering pts which sounds drastic but so is watching this happening and although my vet said he wouldn’t know when he’s having a seizure I’m finding that hard to believe. He’s only 3 and the number of seizures is increasing as well as the severity of them. Would you try cannabis oil or do you think it wouldn’t help ?

It isn't easy watching your dog have a fit but it isn't the end of the world. Don't panic and don't be frightened to reassure your dog as he is recovering. Please watch that he doesn't come to harm in the post ictal period when he is likely to be confused.

As the fits have increased I would suggest going back to your vet for further advice. MRI would rule out a brain tumour and might put your mind at rest that there isn't a sinister cause. Your vet will have ruled out metabolic causes with the blood tests. Your dog could be like mine and have idiopathic epilepsy which basically just means that no cause was found.

With the guidance of your vet I would try prescription medication and forget the CBD oil as a first line of treatment, it is always something to consider if all else fails. Annie died in 2015, there may be newer treatments available now.

Prescription medication may stop the fits or reduce them to a frequency that you feel you can cope with.

Only you and your vet can decide if your dog's quality of life is impaired and if PTS would be kindest.

I never once regretted my decision to treat Annie with anticonvulsants, she didn't let epilepsy get in the way of enjoying life.

Don't hesitate to contact me if you feel I can help.
 
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CorvusCorax

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Please be careful of your own safety also as my friend was very badly bitten when her dog was coming out of a seizure, he was confused and scared and her hand/arm was the closest thing to his mouth. They were on a walk at the time in the middle of nowhere. If you have any other dogs keep them out of the way when your dog is fitting as they can also be very wary of why their mate is acting so oddly.
 

skinnydipper

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Please be careful of your own safety also as my friend was very badly bitten when her dog was coming out of a seizure, he was confused and scared and her hand/arm was the closest thing to his mouth. They were on a walk at the time in the middle of nowhere. If you have any other dogs keep them out of the way when your dog is fitting as they can also be very wary of why their mate is acting so oddly.

... and don't do as I did when Annie's first fit started - I didn't realise she was fitting, I thought from the sound she was making that she was choking and was going to clear her airway when she bit down hard on my fingers :rolleyes: I soon realised what was going on when the tonic/clonic movements started and she was incontinent. It came as a shock the first time. She had been asleep in the chair.

One of my other dogs got excited the first time she saw Annie fitting but didn't bother after that. My first GSD would come and gently reassure her as she was recovering.

Annie was never aggressive when she was coming round but would crash about or stand with her head in the corner of the room. I found she was calmer and recovered more quickly if I gently held her.

She must have had an aura when she was awake and tried to find me if she knew she was going to fit and I always slept with one ear open so I knew when a fit started at night.
 
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missmatch

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I do. I have a rescue Rottweiler who had an awful start to life. She came to me as a foster with an external fixator in her front left leg. It took months for her to even begin to trust me and I could not let her go. So we adopted her. She has some issues for sure but her leg gives her grief a lot. She was on metacam, then tramadol with metacam and it just kept increasing so I tried cbd. It took a fair while to get her dosage and the benefit to her is immense. All 58kg of her flying round the house and up the stairs is testament to it. It wasn’t just her leg that improved. She’s a very worried girl with a lot of things and fireworks would send her into a petrified mess. Whilst she’s still a worried girl she’s not as worried and we can manage fireworks a lot better now. I still have her metacam should she need it but it’s rare she does now and she’s nearly 6. Op done at 6 months old.
There is a cbd company online, the one I buy from, who owns a dog rescue. He has always been more than happy to chat and guide you.
‘It’s not a magic potion though. What works for some ………
 

skinnydipper

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Thank you for your reply, my dog had just had a major fit in the house which is what led to my question. I spoke to my vet a couple of weeks ago, he did blood tests which showed nothing and we talked about medication but I got the feeling he thought it didn’t help much and I was reluctant to put him on life long medication which at best would reduce the number of fits he’s having. I don’t know what to do, earlier I was considering pts which sounds drastic but so is watching this happening and although my vet said he wouldn’t know when he’s having a seizure I’m finding that hard to believe. He’s only 3 and the number of seizures is increasing as well as the severity of them. Would you try cannabis oil or do you think it wouldn’t help ?


I know its tough for you right now Bonny and you are trying to do what you feel is best for your dog. I was just sharing my experience of epilepsy in my dog. Sometimes she would have a cluster only once a month, sometimes only a couple of weeks would go by but if we were lucky we could have a stretch of 6 weeks between episodes. I am sure it was not painful for her. Between episodes she was the same dog with the same zest for life.

Why don't you go back and have another chat with your vet. Explain how you are feeling, that you are worried about the increase in fits and ask about treatment options and whether it would be a good idea to have a treatment trial. When on treatment your vet will check bloods to see if the drugs are at a therapeutic level and monitor liver and kidney function.

It really doesn't matter if we or our pets are on drugs for life, I am on more than one and it certainly beats being dead ;)

Here is more information about CBD which I hope will help you make an informed decision on treatment.

I'll start with this link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ary-medicinal-products-containing-cannabidiol

I think vets in the UK can prescribe CBD using the prescribing cascade when usual treatments for the condition have not been effective.

I could only find one small study, led by Dr McGrath at Colorado State University, which looked at CBD for dogs with epilepsy. 16 dogs in the study, 9 were given CBD in addition to their usual medication. Dr McGrath is a shareholder of the company which provided the product used in the study.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190521101450.htm

CBD for humans is an unregulated, non standardised supplement.

It is illegal for CBD supplements to be sold for animal use (see first link)

Studies have found that label claims frequently do not match bottle contents.

https://phytovistalabs.com/how-bad-is-cbd-oil-mislabelling-in-the-uk/

CBD oil has been found to contain fungus and pesticides and other toxins such as heavy metals and high levels of ethanol.

It is advisable to buy a pharmacy grade product with a certificate of analysis.

You would need to check for drug interactions, CBD may interfere with other medications processed by the liver.

CBD elevates liver enzymes and you would be unaware of this without blood testing.

THC causes toxicity in dogs and has been found in higher levels than those stated on the label.

I would want to know that the person advising on dosage was medically qualified.
 
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bonny

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Thank you very much for that Skinnydipper, that’s useful reading and from that limited trial it does appear the oil is worth considering. I have bought some but not used it yet and I’m planning on seeing a different vet who I know and trust his opinion. The vet I saw I wasn’t very taken with ! Lots to think about and so far no fits today, yesterday was terrible and he can’t go on like that .
 

PaintPonies

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When you see your vet make sure you ask about what you should/shouldn't do when your dog is having a fit and coming out of the fit. Having as much information as you can should make it less scary for you and you will feel more prepared. As skinnydipper has said apart from some confusion after the fit they really don't know anything about it, it will be worse for you watching than for him.

I'm not up to date with current treatment options but in my experience the preventatives were usually very effective. I know you say you don't want the dog on life long medication but surely the cannabis oil would be life long too? If the fits seem to be increasing in frequency then it would be good to get to the vet and get started on medication sooner rather than later.
 

SusieT

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I'd go for proper medication any day over an untried un proven drug like cannabis oil - if you're vet didnt seem very confident with seizures I'd find another vet.
 

bonny

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I'd go for proper medication any day over an untried un proven drug like cannabis oil - if you're vet didnt seem very confident with seizures I'd find another vet.
The treatment sounded very hit or miss and at best they aim for a 50% reduction in the number of fits which as he is irregular in the number he’s having would make it difficult to know if it was having any effect ?
 

skinnydipper

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You stated on another thread "we seem to have become a nation of animal owners that can’t do anything without a professional holding our hands". That should not apply to epilepsy which needs the expertise of a veterinarian.

Epilepsy is not something that you should be trying to treat yourself with OTC dubious supplements.

Thank you very much for that Skinnydipper, that’s useful reading and from that limited trial it does appear the oil is worth considering. I have bought some but not used it yet and I’m planning on seeing a different vet who I know and trust his opinion. The vet I saw I wasn’t very taken with ! Lots to think about and so far no fits today, yesterday was terrible and he can’t go on like that .

The dogs in the study were taking conventional veterinary prescribed proven epilepsy treatments, the same drugs that my dog was on. CBD was given in addition to those. Larger studies are needed.

I was not advocating treating with CBD when I linked to the study.

I had hoped that my post would highlight the dangers of buying CBD and trying to treat your dog yourself. Aside from giving something which could potentially be harmful (THC, contaminants, CBD content not consistent with labelling) - you would be committing an offence.

The treatment sounded very hit or miss and at best they aim for a 50% reduction in the number of fits which as he is irregular in the number he’s having would make it difficult to know if it was having any effect ?

Please make an appointment to see your vet without delay. Your vet needs to be aware that the situation has changed and advise you accordingly. There is no advantage in waiting.

From what you have said, he is having frequent fits and they are severe.

A prolonged fit (lasting more than 5 minutes) can cause brain damage and requires treatment to stop it.

50% reduction in fits is good. Any reduction is good.

He won't come to any harm by taking medications prescribed by your vet.

Your vet may have made the decision not to treat initially because your dog had only had one fit or occasional fits. If your dog is having multiple fits then your vet needs to know ASAP.

Your vet may wish to carry out further investigations to elicit the cause of the seizures.

If your dog needs medication it takes time for it to reach therapeutic levels.

Your vet will not prescribe CBD without first prescribing tried and tested anticonvulsants and not all vets will be familiar with its use.
 
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Aru

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If you don't want to medically treat your dog for what sounds like worsening epilepsy then that's your call but to be quite frank it's a bad one.

one seizure has a very different recommendation on management to multiples and clusters of seizures. You really need to talk to your vet again. Increasing frequency changes the treatment plan completely.

Those increasing seizures need treatment and are likely to worsen. The longer you delay treatment the less likely you are to be able to control this if it is true epilepsy.

Cluster seizures are where you have mutlipe seizures together so the body never gets a chance to recover or cool down after all that movement. Clusters or excessively long seizures are the biggest risk in this condition as these can lead to death due to hyperthermia from the excessive muscle movement.
Any reduction is better then ongoing seizures and the risk they entail if they have started to increase in frequency.

Generally over 5 minutes of nonstop fitting and you've essentially cooked the internal parts if the dog and it will be brain dead when the seizure eventually stops. The body shuts down after. That's what the medications trying to avoid.

It makes 0 sense to use cannabis instead of trialling the medications with known efficacy for this condition. If all else fails then by all means it's worth a go..but as a first line of defence it's a bad call until we learn more about that drug in dogs.

There are multiple recognised and quite reliable treatment options for canine epilepsy. The aim of treatment is generally to reduce frequency and length of seizures in the hopes of avoiding the fatal clusters seizures. It's rarely 100 percent perfect few medications are...but many dogs respond very well once correctly medicated at the right dose.

At 3 his treatment will be lifelong but if he responds well to medication it could be quite a long and otherwise normal life.
 

bonny

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If you don't want to medically treat your dog for what sounds like worsening epilepsy then that's your call but to be quite frank it's a bad one.

one seizure has a very different recommendation on management to multiples and clusters of seizures. You really need to talk to your vet again. Increasing frequency changes the treatment plan completely.

Those increasing seizures need treatment and are likely to worsen. The longer you delay treatment the less likely you are to be able to control this if it is true epilepsy.

Cluster seizures are where you have mutlipe seizures together so the body never gets a chance to recover or cool down after all that movement. Clusters or excessively long seizures are the biggest risk in this condition as these can lead to death due to hyperthermia from the excessive muscle movement.
Any reduction is better then ongoing seizures and the risk they entail if they have started to increase in frequency.

Generally over 5 minutes of nonstop fitting and you've essentially cooked the internal parts if the dog and it will be brain dead when the seizure eventually stops. The body shuts down after. That's what the medications trying to avoid.

It makes 0 sense to use cannabis instead of trialling the medications with known efficacy for this condition. If all else fails then by all means it's worth a go..but as a first line of defence it's a bad call until we learn more about that drug in dogs.

There are multiple recognised and quite reliable treatment options for canine epilepsy. The aim of treatment is generally to reduce frequency and length of seizures in the hopes of avoiding the fatal clusters seizures. It's rarely 100 percent perfect few medications are...but many dogs respond very well once correctly medicated at the right dose.

At 3 his treatment will be lifelong but if he responds well to medication it could be quite a long and otherwise normal life.
Thank you for that, I am still considering options and doing research. There certainly are a lot of different opinions on what’s best and I’m going to go and see a different vet that I like.
 

bonny

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skinnydipper was actually right about considering all pros and cons before using CBD oil, my mother had a dog, it was diagnosed with something really severe and incurable, it did have pains as well, that's why the dog was prescribed to use CBD oil, now I have something similar with my dog, however I don't want my dog to suffer consequently from the side effects of CBD oil. Has anyone used any kratom types in treating your dogs? i have heard that it's totally worth a try, however I haven't heard anything about pets. Can you suggest anything? Is it safe? Thanks in advance.
I don’t know what side effects you think cbd oil has ? My dog now gets it twice a day and has since I first posted this. Apart from the cost I don’t see any drawbacks to using it.
 
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