Cannot ever let dog off lead.

I won't walk our spaniel off the lead unless my OH is with us, she respects him more and her recall is dicey with me (well it's good until she gets within 10ft of me and then won't come any closer). Not really a problem as we have the farm to walk her on so she still has off lead walks with me, just on the farm.
 
Actually treats are what works for me! But then to put into perspective, while I have dogs for many years....it has normally been one at a time ( till recently) and therefore I have a limited range of experience. I get as far as key words and treats and that works for me, but this post got me thinking. I would be more than happy to take on a Stafford but retrain say a full on working cocker? Would be stuck ! Treats or tennis ball...easily pleased!
 
We had a JRT we could not let off the lead and we did go to dog trainers to no avail. We managed to solve it because he was basically a fixated hunter/killer and so we started killing mice and rats with him using the command "check it out". I didn't enjoy it but he loved it! Then it progressed that I could let him off the lead and if we saw his attention was wandering I could point at something close to me and say check it out and he would come to me and have his lead clipped on. 50% of the time "check it out" was used as a recall and the other 50% he really did get a chance to hunt and kill. I am no dog expert and someone will probably tell me how wrong that was but it worked for him :-)
 
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CaveCanem said:
E-collars on a light setting, introduced correctly and used as an attention grabber rather than BAD DOG - ZAP! are a very useful tool.

I love the 'your dog isn't trained' argument. Sometimes you can't fight with genetics, sometimes you can't fight with ingrained behaviour. I'd rather be safe than sorry, there are plenty of ways to tire a dog than letting them bimble around at their own leisure off lead (there's another sweeping statement, for balance :p)
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Yup, e-collars used correctly are great. And I do agree with your genetics point, for sure with dogs like huskies and mals, they are indeed a handful where recall is concerned. Like many breeds, they literally "go deaf" when they are onto the trail of something, or they simply just want to run. This is where the e collar comes in ... a gentle reminder - it could even be a simple vibrate - will remind them that if they continue with this undesirable behaviour, a correction will follow.

My dogs don't "bimble around" - they are both incredibly active, racing up and down after balls and sticks, or working together sniffing out exciting scents! They very rarely, if ever, walk when they are off lead! Their slowest pace is trot. And both are extremely obedient ... even when they take off after deer, within a few strides they are coming back. I could not condemn them to a life of the lead, unless they were worked in harness which I wouldn't be able to afford. We do take them out for long bike rides along the canals - we go for miles and they canter along with us quite happily, jumping in and out of the water as the mood takes them, they love it.
 
firm said:
We had a JRT we could not let off the lead and we did go to dog trainers to no avail. We managed to solve it because he was basically a fixated hunter/killer and so we started killing mice and rats with him using the command "check it out". I didn't enjoy it but he loved it! Then it progressed that I could let him off the lead and if we saw his attention was wandering I could point at something close to me and say check it out and he would come to me and have his lead clipped on. 50% of the time "check it out" was used as a recall and the other 50% he really did get a chance to hunt and kill. I am no dog expert and someone will probably tell me how wrong that was but it worked for him :-)
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Sounds brilliant!! If it works for you, then it must be good. The dog's happy because he is doing what he was bred for, and you are happy because you can get him to come when you want him to - well done you!
 
Bille said:
You are right CaveCanem. Some breeds are not as easily trained as others.

I have Alaskan Malamutes (mine were always OFF the lead dogs) much to the disapproval of other sled dog owners but they will be put on the lead near other dogs, joggers and live stock.

However just because some dogs are very difficult to train, does not mean we should not make a serious effort to do so!!!

I agree every dog owner should do the responsible thing and keep their dogs under control and at least clip them on the lead when they see another dog...

Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of all manor of dogs running up to mine, with the owner shouting from the distance "HE'S ALRIGHT"!!!!
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I get a lot of flack with my mal crosses, but if I had a pure mal, and I really hope I will one day, it would most definitely be allowed off the lead. Like you, I have to recall my dogs and put them on the lead when we see other dogs coming, and of course around livestock. They are fine with joggers, they take no notice unless they have a dog with them, but horses they adore and we have to make sure that they don't rush up and spook them. Horses seem to love them as well, but not if they were galloping across the field towards them - which they would do i am sure if they were not leashed.

I personally will not accept that any dog is untrainable - as a last resort, the e collar is a great tool - but I am sure that there must be a few rare cases when they are just hobos, and that's the end of it. With both dogs and horses, I never say never!
 
The 'bimbling' comment was a sweeping statement to counter the previous sweeping statement that people who err on the side of caution with unreliable dogs can't be bothered to train them.

I know people at the top of their game internationally who are not arrogant enough, despite all their titles and shiny bling, to say that their dog is 'fully trained' because a 'fully trained' dog does not exist.
Even world champions train a little bit, every day.

And e-collars are not a failsafe - the drive of some dogs to chase will carry them through the discomfort.

I know plenty of people who let their dogs run free because they 'can't be bothered' to teach them how to walk on a loose line and just take the lead off for an easy life/to spare their arms :p
 
CaveCanem said:
The 'bimbling' comment was a sweeping statement to counter the previous sweeping statement that people who err on the side of caution with unreliable dogs can't be bothered to train them.

I know people at the top of their game internationally who are not arrogant enough, despite all their titles and shiny bling, to say that their dog is 'fully trained' because a 'fully trained' dog does not exist.
Even world champions train a little bit, every day.

And e-collars are not a failsafe - the drive of some dogs to chase will carry them through the discomfort.

I know plenty of people who let their dogs run free because they 'can't be bothered' to teach them how to walk on a loose line and just take the lead off for an easy life/to spare their arms :p
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Lol!! I gettit now!! Yup, I agree entirely about dogs - there is no such thing as a 100% perfect dog 100% of the time. I cringe when I see people walking their dogs off road on a busy thoroughfare - they say that their dogs are totally obedient, but I am not sure whether any dog would ignore a rabbit, cat, fox, or some other crittur leaping up under their noses and dashing across a main road - this is an awful lot to ask of the most obedient dog, and whereas I am sure such paragons of virtue must exist, I personally would never risk walking any dog off lead on or next to a road ... even with an e collar on!

If you know what you're doing and how to effectively use the collar, there are not many dogs who would be able to ignore a "sustain" ... this is where in an emergency situation - such as the dog is about to run across a main road, a railway line, or get into a flock of sheep and cause mayhem and he is totally ignoring you - you apply a prolonged zap, set at the level of your choice. This sounds horrendous, but even with our very disobedient, very DA, very stroppy wolf cross, he has never had to have a "sustain". I would claim that e collars ARE failsafe ... as long as the battery is charged, and you have fitted the collar correctly - you can test whether it is working by pressing the vibrate button and see if you can feel it whilst it is round the dog's neck. You must of course make sure it is fully functional and switched on - if it is, then I would say the device is 100% failsafe, as long as you know how to use it properly.

I agree about lazy people who can't be bothered to train a proper recall!
 
I have just shared a post on facebook about 2 GSDs who went off after a fox yesterday and are still missing.:( That is the reason Evie stays on a long line unless I am absolutely sure it is safe. She thinks she is half foxhound and has disappeared after foxes more than once. I have always been hot on her heels and got her back fairly quickly but now I don't risk it, she can run free all she wants in our fields, other than that she stays on. Luckily Freya doesn't have the same instinct and has a pretty good recall (so far:p).
 
I find with my terrier that I have a very small window of opportunity to recall him when he sees or smells something exciting.

He runs free in our securely fenced field but is walked on a lunge rein elsewhere
 
Nikki J said:
I would claim that e collars ARE failsafe ... as long as the battery is charged, and you have fitted the collar correctly - you can test whether it is working by pressing the vibrate button and see if you can feel it whilst it is round the dog's neck. You must of course make sure it is fully functional and switched on - if it is, then I would say the device is 100% failsafe, as long as you know how to use it properly.
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Anyone I know who uses one with success always tries it on themselves first every time, and some people spend weeks if not months introducing the collar in association with a normal flat collar before they ever press anything, so the dog associates the NORMAL collar with the buzz or just to have the dog wearing the collar with no buzz sometimes.
If all the dog gets is a buzz when a certain collar is on, a smart dog will make the link. Which can be a good or a bad thing!!

There are also elements like coat type/thickness and if the dog is wet or not which can impact on how well it can work or not.
 
Sadly last Tuesday I saw the result of a dog not being under proper control - a rottie in a field of sheep. He wsn't hunting them but sadly he did maul two (one fatally) - the second time he had done it. His owner wouldn't go in the field with the sheep as she was scared of them.

Luckily four of the sheep were hand reared and came running over to me when I called the dog - he followed and when I yelled sit when he was 3ft from me he did - but to late - he had sadly signed his death warrant - he was 18 months old. We have 3000 sheep and lots of deer around (and main roads as well as lanes) the owners decided they had no option other than to pts.
 
g3mm4 said:
Sadly last Tuesday I saw the result of a dog not being under proper control - a rottie in a field of sheep. He wsn't hunting them but sadly he did maul two (one fatally) - the second time he had done it. His owner wouldn't go in the field with the sheep as she was scared of them.

Luckily four of the sheep were hand reared and came running over to me when I called the dog - he followed and when I yelled sit when he was 3ft from me he did - but to late - he had sadly signed his death warrant - he was 18 months old. We have 3000 sheep and lots of deer around (and main roads as well as lanes) the owners decided they had no option other than to pts.
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Or have kept said poor dog on a long line after the first incident............... how sad.
 
To be perfectly truthful, and having suffered at the hands of dog owners who have no business keeping dogs, I don't actually see it as particularly sad. I wonder if the owner of the sheep was offered compensation. Having had lambing ewes killed and crippled, and having the owners of the dogs deny all responsibility, I have little sympathy with the dog or its owner.

I suspect that most who keep sheep would shrug their shoulders over the death of the dog.

Alec.
 
I have a malamute and hes not great off leash - we have worked extremely hard at his recall and have some but its not good enough IMO. So he gets off the leash now and again under very secure circumstances and not near any livestock or roads. This obviously limits us but we have found that the newly built railway has a cycle path alongside which is all new and shiny - its fenced extremely well - 6' on the side of the railway and a loch on the other side which is perfectly safe for him to jump in and out of - further along there are some fields but the fencing seems to be designed to keep other animals out and has no livestock in it anyway - so that's where he goes for his 20 mins off leash work when its really quiet - I often go when its raining as I know we are less likely to meet other dogs too. So far so good but I am extremely vigilant with him
 
CaveCanem said:
Anyone I know who uses one with success always tries it on themselves first every time, and some people spend weeks if not months introducing the collar in association with a normal flat collar before they ever press anything, so the dog associates the NORMAL collar with the buzz or just to have the dog wearing the collar with no buzz sometimes.
If all the dog gets is a buzz when a certain collar is on, a smart dog will make the link. Which can be a good or a bad thing!!

There are also elements like coat type/thickness and if the dog is wet or not which can impact on how well it can work or not.
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But us humans do not have a double thick wolf coat, like my boy, so there is little point adjusting it according to our arm, or back of the hand. We have tested it on ourselves just to see what it feels like, and it is nowhere near as unpleasant as you would think. with the protection of a thick layer of fur, to a dog it is more of a jump than actual pain per se. You have to be extremely careful in doing your homework before you commence using an e collar. As you rightly point out, an intelligent dog is quite capable of rationalisation of thought, and my boy falls into that category. He seems to "know" when hubby has just strapped it round his neck, but not turned it on.

The most important thing with the e collar is not to use it in earnest during a dog fight. Our boy is very male DA, and in particular has a hatred of black labradors and spaniels. Once or twice hubby has been caught napping, and has rounded a corner with the boys off lead and bang - there is a black labrador. If you are quick enough, you can get a recall before the red mist comes down, but if you are not, and our boy managed to pounce on the poor labrador, then it would be too late then to enforce the e collar because all you would do is to escalate the attack - on such an occasion, OH would have to dive in and grab the dog and pull him away, something which is not adviseable but would be necessary to protect the other dog. Luckily our boy does not bite, he pins, but weighing in at 45 kilos he could do a lot of damage with his powerful claws, so hubby has to be extremely careful. Luckily, this is a hypothetical scenario, but we are more than aware of the importance of the dog having an instant recall to avoid such unpleasant situations.

You are quite correct as well about the thickness of the dog's coat - which is why we have to be so careful when fitting our dog's collar. He has a double wolf coat, and it is vital to make sure that you have a good contact with the skin because otherwise you might hurt the dog - also, with them diving in and out of the canal, although the Dogtra is waterproof, you need to bear in mind that if the dog is now soaking wet a lower level should be all that is necessary. The idea is not to hurt the dog, but to pull him short metaphorically speaking if and when he gets onto the trail of a deer, or goes to speak to another dog.
 
Hevs said:
I have a malamute and hes not great off leash - we have worked extremely hard at his recall and have some but its not good enough IMO. So he gets off the leash now and again under very secure circumstances and not near any livestock or roads. This obviously limits us but we have found that the newly built railway has a cycle path alongside which is all new and shiny - its fenced extremely well - 6' on the side of the railway and a loch on the other side which is perfectly safe for him to jump in and out of - further along there are some fields but the fencing seems to be designed to keep other animals out and has no livestock in it anyway - so that's where he goes for his 20 mins off leash work when its really quiet - I often go when its raining as I know we are less likely to meet other dogs too. So far so good but I am extremely vigilant with him
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Sounds fantastic Hevs - as long as a dog gets at least some off lead work, I think you are being a very responsible dog owner. We have a disused railway line near us which runs from Northampton to Market Harborough and it has been specially designed for horse riders, walkers and cyclists. It is well-fenced and you can bike for many miles up to MH and back, and the dogs love it. There are several streams and water splashes along the route, just perfect for my mally crosses!
 
g3mm4 said:
Sadly last Tuesday I saw the result of a dog not being under proper control - a rottie in a field of sheep. He wsn't hunting them but sadly he did maul two (one fatally) - the second time he had done it. His owner wouldn't go in the field with the sheep as she was scared of them.

Luckily four of the sheep were hand reared and came running over to me when I called the dog - he followed and when I yelled sit when he was 3ft from me he did - but to late - he had sadly signed his death warrant - he was 18 months old. We have 3000 sheep and lots of deer around (and main roads as well as lanes) the owners decided they had no option other than to pts.
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What an absolutely disgraceful story!! That poor dog - her DUTY was to get in there and fetch her dog - if she is too scared of sheep, then she certainly should not have a dog like a Rottie who although have a very bad press, do need a lot of handling. Thanks to her, her beautiful dog is dead, and I do not condemn the farmer in any way - although I am a bit puzzled as to why the owners put the dog to sleep. I am assuming the farmer insisted on it, which you cannot blame him for? Anyone who is stupid enough to allow this to happen not once but twice, and also be too terrified of sheep to go rescue their dog, is likely more than capable of being stupid enough to allow it to happen a third time. We all know the rules, we know the rules of the countryside, and when you are around sheep, you keep your dogs under control ... end of. One of my boys is a sheep chaser, we discovered this very soon after adopting him, and now he is never allowed anywhere near sheep off lead or under very strict control.
 
Nikki J said:
But us humans do not have a double thick wolf coat, like my boy, so there is little point adjusting it according to our arm, or back of the hand. We have tested it on ourselves just to see what it feels like, and it is nowhere near as unpleasant as you would think.

The most important thing with the e collar is not to use it in earnest during a dog fight.
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- I meant testing it to see if it is working at the level you want it to work at.

- I can't imagine why anyone would want to use one during a dog fight!!

I've tried them on myself a number of times, but I don't use one on my current dog.
 
Nikki J said:
Sounds fantastic Hevs - as long as a dog gets at least some off lead work, I think you are being a very responsible dog owner. We have a disused railway line near us which runs from Northampton to Market Harborough and it has been specially designed for horse riders, walkers and cyclists. It is well-fenced and you can bike for many miles up to MH and back, and the dogs love it. There are several streams and water splashes along the route, just perfect for my mally crosses!
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There's nothing quite like watching him enjoy having a run around and knowing hes safe and all the local sheep are safe too - the other day a train driver decided to honk his big old train horn - never seen my dog jump so high and run behind my legs like that ever lol :D
 
Nikki J said:
But us humans do not have a double thick wolf coat, like my boy, so there is little point adjusting it according to our arm, or back of the hand. We have tested it on ourselves just to see what it feels like, and it is nowhere near as unpleasant as you would think. with the protection of a thick layer of fur, to a dog it is more of a jump than actual pain per se. You have to be extremely careful in doing your homework before you commence using an e collar. As you rightly point out, an intelligent dog is quite capable of rationalisation of thought, and my boy falls into that category. He seems to "know" when hubby has just strapped it round his neck, but not turned it on.

The most important thing with the e collar is not to use it in earnest during a dog fight. Our boy is very male DA, and in particular has a hatred of black labradors and spaniels. Once or twice hubby has been caught napping, and has rounded a corner with the boys off lead and bang - there is a black labrador. If you are quick enough, you can get a recall before the red mist comes down, but if you are not, and our boy managed to pounce on the poor labrador, then it would be too late then to enforce the e collar because all you would do is to escalate the attack - on such an occasion, OH would have to dive in and grab the dog and pull him away, something which is not adviseable but would be necessary to protect the other dog. Luckily our boy does not bite, he pins, but weighing in at 45 kilos he could do a lot of damage with his powerful claws, so hubby has to be extremely careful. Luckily, this is a hypothetical scenario, but we are more than aware of the importance of the dog having an instant recall to avoid such unpleasant situations.

You are quite correct as well about the thickness of the dog's coat - which is why we have to be so careful when fitting our dog's collar. He has a double wolf coat, and it is vital to make sure that you have a good contact with the skin because otherwise you might hurt the dog - also, with them diving in and out of the canal, although the Dogtra is waterproof, you need to bear in mind that if the dog is now soaking wet a lower level should be all that is necessary. The idea is not to hurt the dog, but to pull him short metaphorically speaking if and when he gets onto the trail of a deer, or goes to speak to another dog.
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If you have a known DA dog why on earth would you be walking it off lead anywhere where there is the potential for it to meet another dog??
 
Nikki J said:
What an absolutely disgraceful story!! That poor dog - her DUTY was to get in there and fetch her dog - if she is too scared of sheep, then she certainly should not have a dog like a Rottie who although have a very bad press, do need a lot of handling. Thanks to her, her beautiful dog is dead, and I do not condemn the farmer in any way - although I am a bit puzzled as to why the owners put the dog to sleep. I am assuming the farmer insisted on it, which you cannot blame him for? Anyone who is stupid enough to allow this to happen not once but twice, and also be too terrified of sheep to go rescue their dog, is likely more than capable of being stupid enough to allow it to happen a third time. We all know the rules, we know the rules of the countryside, and when you are around sheep, you keep your dogs under control ... end of. One of my boys is a sheep chaser, we discovered this very soon after adopting him, and now he is never allowed anywhere near sheep off lead or under very strict control.
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Firstly the owner was clearly terrified of sheep - the rottie was the third or 4th she and her partner have had. The first time the dog went after the sheep her partners son was walking him and he bolted after a deer and found the sheep. On this occaision the dog was in the kitchen with her and escaped.

We did not insist on the dog being destroyed - far from it I emailed them details of various rottie rescues but they felt they could not move him on (they had had him 6months having got him from a house in Bristol where he was kept in a yard and not walked).

We have a man locally who has a GSP he lets it out of his car, plugs the ear phones in and sets off head-down for his walk - the dog by then is about 3 fields away or playing chicken in the road with tractors and cars - that's what it is bred to do so why should he stop it is his comment when told to control it.
 
CaveCanem said:
Anyone I know who uses one with success always tries it on themselves first every time, ........
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So let me get this straight, and out of a genuine interest, would you say that an electric shock inducing collar is a tool which others use, as in a considered daily usage, or something which the users "Resort" to? In other words, is it there when all else fails, or is it a convenience?

Having never used one, I'm interested.

Alec.
 
I've never used one either so you would have to ask those that do! I'd say the answer is both.

Don't forget, they don't just induce 'electric shocks', they can be set to beep only or can be set with a variety of vibrations.
You can actually use the vibration setting to let the dog know they have done something good at a distance, as well as using them to get the dog's attention, people with deaf dogs use them as a form of clicker with the vibration. I think that's called 'thinking outside the box'!

I know there are people on here who claim to have only ever had to use one once, but as with any piece of equipment, it's ideal that you introduce it slowly and with an aim in mind, rather than just slapping it on and off you go. Doing that with a nervy dog will freak them out, doing it with a clever dog will make them equipment-wise.

The reason I'm told you should try them on yourself before you put it on the dog is to check that it is working in the first place, or it hasn't for some reason leapt up to level 10 or whatever.
 
g3mm4 said:
Firstly the owner was clearly terrified of sheep - the rottie was the third or 4th she and her partner have had. The first time the dog went after the sheep her partners son was walking him and he bolted after a deer and found the sheep. On this occaision the dog was in the kitchen with her and escaped.

We did not insist on the dog being destroyed - far from it I emailed them details of various rottie rescues but they felt they could not move him on (they had had him 6months having got him from a house in Bristol where he was kept in a yard and not walked).

We have a man locally who has a GSP he lets it out of his car, plugs the ear phones in and sets off head-down for his walk - the dog by then is about 3 fields away or playing chicken in the road with tractors and cars - that's what it is bred to do so why should he stop it is his comment when told to control it.
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I think you have been very understanding, what a sad story and owner who should have known better.
We suffer the same way here, my neighbour is a sheep farmer and part of the Staffordshire way crosses the field under our wall, the things we see are always down to inconsiderate humans more than the dogs,after many incidents and owners who refuse to take responsibility, the footpath has now been fenced off with electic fencing to keep the sheep safe. We still get the yells and yelps as we hear as people who let their dogs and children run and then they hit the electric fence, even though there are warning signs.
 
Alec Swan said:
So let me get this straight, and out of a genuine interest, would you say that an electric shock inducing collar is a tool which others use, as in a considered daily usage, or something which the users "Resort" to? In other words, is it there when all else fails, or is it a convenience?

Alec.
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C_C, you've yet to answer my question. Is the Electric Collar viewed by its users as a daily and usable tool, or as a last resort?

I'm genuinely interested to learn.

Alec.
 
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